Why does it seem that the precision rifle community every 5-10 years has a new favorite company? Used to be S&B, then Nightforce, then Vortex, (and now athlon?) and yet you never hear much about IOR Valdada (my buddy thought it was a band) or Khales who make IMO the best scopes in the world. Do you buy scopes because thats what everyone recomends? I mean my old original Nikon Buckmasters from the late 90's has clearer glass and better contrast than my buddies Vortex viper pst and he agrees (the same pst that had to be sent back twice cause the tracking was off), and yet people will say Vortex is the latest and greatest.

IOR and Kahles are very nice. I don't talk about them because I'm not uber rich like a bunch of peeps here are. lol

My most expensive scope is an ACOG, the rest are under the $600.00 mark.

I try to stick with Trijicon for a number of reasons.

1. Quality
2. Customer Service
3. No Battery Illumination


The big draw to Vortex is the warranty, and the wide price range so that everyone can afford a slice of that pie.

Vortex is a solid company, no doubt. Athlon offers a lifetime warranty, no questions asked as well. They are definitely trying to follow the Vortex model.

I think a lot of it is guys on forums are sponsored by companies or in close relation and push their product. It then becomes an echo chamber of everyone else  pushing it. Doesn't mean they aren't great products, just means praise is lopsided.

The huge numbers of scopes to choose from is overwhelming, people just say "fuck it" a buy what so-n-so suggested, then they recommend the same to everyone that asks.

I had an IOR 3.5-18X50, which was the first one they made that didn't have lots of reliability issues. I loved it, though the reticle was very thick (.1 mil) and it was very heavy and felt like a steel pipe in the hand. The last few years IOR has made great, if heavy, scopes.

There are a *lot* of awesome options nowadays, that just didn't exist a few years ago. Used to be you got an SFP Mk 4 or NSX with mismatched turrets and you liked it, or you could drop another grand on a S&B PM series. Now, you can expect FFP, matched turrets, good glass/warranty/tracking/etc from tons of brands. Leopold, NF, and S&B are still around and making nicer scopes than ever. But now thy have awesome competition from Burris, Trijicon, Vortex, Kahles, March, Bushnell, SWFA, etc.

I will say I love my Vortex optics. They have a very full and tiered product line. They are competitive in pretty much every price tier and optics application, offer a lot within their respective pricing tiers, and have built a great reputation on their ironclad warranty. One day I'll have a rifle nice enough to be fitting of their 4.5-27, until then I adore my 2.5-10 FFP PST and my Gen I 5-20.

If that's true then the USO marketing guy is falling down on the job as I rarely see USO mentioned or discussed in this forum!  They seem to be an American company with a quality product but there seems to be no love for them in this forum...  not that they get bad mouthed just largely ignored...  I don't get it...

Totally agree, US Optics are super underrated. The other thing I dont get is how everyone says vortex has such a great customer service reputation and warranty, but dont stop and think "Its seems like a lot of people have used it..."

Maybe they just sell a ton more than everyone else, with most of it being their cheaper product lines?

I think it's great that they will stand behind and offer the same warranty on their $200 optics as they do their $2000 ones.

What happened to Premier? Did they go out of business?

Tangent Theta now.

It's largely marketing.  

Company X comes out with something new, not seen before in premium scopes, be it a reticle, coating, method of adjustment, etc.  Then they market it well, and people latch on to it.  

The companies that you have mentioned that don't get talked about - when is the last time they've made a real change to their product lineup, or when did you last see one of their ads, or a rep on the popular forums?

Thanks. I had no idea.

I think you are right.  In the end analysis paralysis takes hold and I have always just said "fuck it" and bought what I could get the best deal on in the quality of scope I was looking for.

I have tried lots of scopes over the years but never S&B, TT, Kahles, or the other $3000K+ options.

Here is a brief list:
Leupold MK4 3.5-10x40 M3 (too little magnification for my use)
IOR 3-18x42 "SH Edition" FFP (hated the stupid short tube section that made mounting a gigantic PITA)
IOR 2.5-10x42 FFP (too little magnification for my use)
SWFA SS 10x42 Side Focus (wanted a variable)
SWFA SS 10x42 HD (two of them but one was purchased at a great price) (wanted a variable)
Bushnell 3.5-21 G2DMR (got a smoking deal on the 3-18x50 Gen II Razor or I would still own it)
*Bushnell 3-12x42 LRTSi (excellent on my general purpose 308 and I got it for a good price)
*Bushnell 1-6.5x SMRS (works well on my 300BLK SBR and I got it for a good price)
*Vortex 3-18x50 Gen II Razor (Heavy but works well on my AIAT.  I don't really like the 3-screw turrets but they are pretty unavoidable unless you go Bushnell)
*Vortex 1-6x24 Gen II Razor (heavy but works well on my 5.56mm SBR and I got it for a good price)

I still own the ones marked with an * at this time.  I think that is all of them.

I have learned that I need to buy what I want as I just end up selling them if I don't.  Those that I still own will probably stay for a long time simply due to the fact that they work and both companies have great warranties and service.  I would love to try a Kahles or S&B but I don't want to spend the money on them just to try.  I really wish the Vortex could use the same type of turret retention mechanism that Bushnell uses as it is so simple but I understand why they can't with their design.

Kind of yes but in reality all TT did was get the intellectual property from Premier and their machinery as well as parts supply I believe.  However, if you have a Premier that wasn't purchased thru the TT dealer network then you are SOL on warranty and will at most get a $1K credit towards the purchase of a new TT scope.  Even if you are lucky enough to have a warranty on your specific Premier scope they are running out of spare parts and will only be able to fix them as long as the parts hold out.  If they can't fix it the same credit applies from my understanding.

It is kind of a cluster and I am glad I didn't get a Premier a few years ago.  They were very nice scopes!

The credit is nice of them to do since they didn't have to do anything, however, it was implied (even by some in writing) that the warranty would transfer from Premier to TT which turned out to not exactly be accurate.  Also, a $1K credit towards a new TT doesn't mean much to many when the TT is a $4K+ optic while the Premier was closer to $2700.

Not entirely true. Marketing is a big part. When vortex started to take off they had excellent marketing. They sent a T&E scope to any larger youtube channel out there that eould post a decent video. They sponsored many pro shooters. They put the money in ads and tv. They are a good upper mid grad/ lower high end company. I personally believe they got the brand recognition and are charging you for the advertising. They are good scopes, but there is probably $50+ of the price of every pst sold going into advertising.

Bingo ^

No love for Steiner?

Military have a great reputation but the Burris/Steiner Made in USA scopes had bad issues when they released the T5Xi series.  Most have been corrected now but it hurt their reputation.

Considering that 5 to 10 years can deliver a pretty big change in technology. Be that electronics miniaturization, glass coatings, tube construction, construction materials etc, yeah the market is going to shift to those products that bring new technology to bear with the features that consumers want, if a company can bring all that to market at a better price point then that will be a pretty popular item. 

The increased popularity of long range shooting and things like PRS are starting to reverse the stagnation that tends to happen with industries that support primarily military contracts, (looking at you Leupold). That push towards more popular options is what your seeing. 

And you do hear alot about IOR, but you have to be here more than just 87 posts to see it 

Yeah, the initial turret issue with the T5Xi definitely hurt their credibility. However, the Steiner T is still a better looking optic than the Burris IMO. The turrets have since been fixed. If they would fix the minor CA issue then it would be a solid winner for the price. The military line of Steiner (Germany) is on a whole other level.

I was trying to decide between the 3-15X T5xi or the 3-18x Razor Gen II, and reading the SH thread about all the issues the Steiner's had pushed me over the edge.  I probably would have gone with the Steiner had they not had those issues due to a killer .mil discount, but I didn't want something that was going to have to make multiple trips back to the factory.

I went thru the exact same proces about a year ago and wound up making the same choice you did.  I am also happy with my choice as the GEN II Razor has been perfect.

Growth in the precision market is driving innovation and competition.

Shit changes.

Five years ago if you told someone you sold a S&B to buy a Vortex they would look at you like you had a dick coming out of your forehead. Say that at a club match today and they will just nod approvingly.

The accidental damage coverage was a large part of my decision to buy the Gen II Razor over the ATACR.  I know that we all "pay" for it in the price of the scope but it is still nice to have the peace of mind.  That is why I own 2 Gen II Razor's and 2 Bushnell Elite's simply because of their awesome warranties.

ETA: Also, the other deciding factor for me was when my friend had just purchased a Gen I Razor and was having trouble with the ZS on it (user error).  I IM'd Sam on a Saturday here and he asked for my friend's phone number.  Within a couple of hours he called my friend and had it all sorted out.

i emailed vortex due to the turret adjustment locking screws on my 4.5-27 kept loosening up. in the email i stated i thought the length of screw was too short and longer ones probably wouldn't loosen. the women replied the same day, telling me they had and upgraded screw, asked for my address and overnighted me new screws , and spares. how do you argue with that? you just cant beat their customer service


other company's like leupold would have argued that i was doing something wrong.

About 7 years ago I fucked up an old Leupold Vari-X 1 maxing out the windage to zero it(entirely my fault). I took it into Leupold's office in Beaverton and dropped it off. They fixed it for free and included a nice little note on how limited the windage was the on old Vari-X scopes.

Recently, I dropped my Vortex Diamondback binos right on the eye pieces. They've been dropped several times before this but this time around it broke the eye piece adjusters. Binos still worked great, just the eye pieces were smashed down. I use these on patrol every day and called Vortex. I shipped them out and got them back within a week. Not only did Vortex fix my binos, they gave them a deep cleaning.

So that being said, any company who's willing to fix a customer's fuck ups has my business. I've been leaning towards Vortex more and more as for the money they seem to offer the best features but Leupold is not a slouch either.

On a hunt my horse stumbled on loose rocks and fell hard with me up and a bolt gun in a scabbard.  A Leupold VX-3 was exposed and the eyepiece shattered.  I called Leupold and honestly described what happened.  They said send it in and they would give me an estimate on repair.  I did.  It came back in about three weeks repaired free of charge, even though accidents or abuse are not covered.

Can't say they would always do that, but it was a pleasant surprise.

I think about it in every Vortex thread which usually involves "I had to send the scope back, and I sent back two of the replacements, but they're really nice, and fast too.  Yay Vortex!"

That was why I didn't buy a Vortex for a long time.   I still won't buy anything other than the Gen II Razor or AMG line from them.  I Have 2 Gen II Razor's and they both have been solid performers and they are every bit as good as the best European designs (slight glass differences excepted).

If I want cheaper than the Razor I buy the Bushnell Elite Tactical line that is made in Japan.  I only buy optics made in Japan or the USA as I just don't trust the QC done in other countries.  I can't comment on on European scopes except for IOR and I wasn't impressed with the QC or engineering of those that I have owned and won't be buying more.  I have never handled S&B,Hendsoldt, Kahles, or the other well known European glass so I can't comment on them.

I do know that should I have a problem with Vortex or Bushnell that it will be addressed quickly and professionally.  It is also nice to have a rep on here and SH for Vortex and SH for Bushnell that I can contact.  Sam at Vortex was awesome when my friend didn't follow directions while zeroing his Gen I Razor and Sam called him on a Saturday to help him out after I IM'd him here.

If I do have a problem with my Vortex Razors or any scope I will still be pissed off but I will let them fix it.  If they fix it I will move on but if not then I will let them try again and sell it when I get it back.  Shit happens but I don't like it to happen more than once especially at the $1000+ price range.

lol...  really?  

I bet you will hear from a LOT more Honda owners have used their warranty than Ferrari owners.  Does that mean that Honda is more problematic than Ferrari?

I'll stick with my tried-and-true NF NXS models on the rifles that really matter to me.  The others wear a mix of Bushnell, Vortex and Trijicon.
I've owned an S&B PMII, USO's and IOR's.  The S&B PMII had a rare, desirable Premiere reticle and was traded away for an M99 - but I liked it and it worked great.  The USO's I had were nice, but had problems.  Warranty took care of them, but the overall didn't justify the price, so I sold them off.  The IOR had amazing glass - rivaling the S&B - but the reticle on the FFP was too thick, and it had inconsistent tracking.  Never was able to connect with support on the IOR.

the following is my opinion, nothing more

S&B fell out of favor many years ago when they became known as Shift & Bender because of one of their popular model's inability to hold zero.   at the same time they got super greedy and increased the street price of their scopes from $2700 to almost $4000 while denying any problems.

NF only recently moved to first focal plane scopes.  They were stuck in the old NXS 2nd focal days, and then they made some kinda crappy 1st focal versions.  However, the recent ATACR F1 5-25x and 7-35x scopes are afaik the best money can buy today so look for everyone to start using them soon.

Leupold was just like NF in waiting too long to make a modern scope.  Then when they did, they wanted $7000 for them.  heh.   heh heh.    heh heh heh. no.

Vortex was in the right place at the right time and came out with the gen2 $2400 scope that tracked well and had great glass at a time when people were dumping their $3750 S&Bs.  Like Rob, I sold my 3x S&B and went to vortex gen2 because it was the only decent scope on the market at that time.  Yes, I said only.  
That said, comparing the reputation of the low-end made-in-china models to the high end models is kinda stupid, eh?  

Khales are ok.  they have a reputation for being fragile, but lightweight.  as a lefty, i do like their parallax knob, but definitely not best scope on the planet.

Tangent Theta might be the best scope out there, and I've considered buying one many times, but I literally don't know anyone I trust who has spent any meaningful time behind one.   The company (and it's fan boy) needs an attitude adjustment if they want shooters to take a chance on them.  Until then, sample size is too low to even consider.

US Optics at one time was really the only custom scope out there.  You bought one if you wanted something different, like windage and parallax knobs switched for left handers, or a different diopter range, or your magnification range changed, etc.  You could get lots of styles and options for everything. You could even design your own reticle.  They had some kickass innovative features like internal bubble level and dual focal plane, etc.  It pains me greatly to say this because they were an awesome company and they sponsored the crap out of matches.  Seriously they had $3000 scopes on pretty much every prize table i saw for YEARS and are just really good people.  However, they stopped offering all those options presumably in an attempt to fix the quality control issues in their manufacturing, but it didn't seem to work.  I absolutely love my USO scopes and will never part with any of them, but seriously, expect to send them back to the factory multiple times before they're "right".   And expect it may be 6 months before you see them again.  

so no, it's not marketing.  it's not a fad.  the internet forums just took feedback from shooters and amplified it.  people who had never owned any of these and weren't really part of the community just repeated what they heard.  

that said, the OP was well to note that it is constantly changing.  So if someone reads this post 6 months or 2 years from now, do not assume my opinion is static.  it will probably have changed a few times, as the mfg are changing, changing match styles create new challenges that cause shooters to want different features, etc.

I can say this... as a Layman who first got into the precision game in the early 90's, when the best options out their were fixed 10x with mil dots... I bought the best i thought there was,, the Leupold MK4 M1 with a premier mil dot reticle.  and it has served me well with moderate use....

Now I want to upgrade, and I have been spending hours upon hours on here.. Snipers Hide and You tube... looking at scopes, reading reviews...comparing spec's looking at reticles..

There is a lot going on.... I have to be realistic in what i want... and want I need... 600 yrds is going to be the norm for me.. with the occasional 1000 yds maybe once a year,,,

I Know I'm not going to drop 3K+ on S&B or Kahles or TT ,etc... just not practical for me.

I thought the Burris XTRII might fit the bill... but I have my doubts... The Vortex Gen2 PST seems like the one, but I still struggle over the magnification range... I think I want the 5x-25X top end, but would I be better with the lower end 3x-15x...

I know I'm going to stay with MOA.. as i have years in it and it makes sense to me... and I may stick with a SFP as I don't plan on ranging and do not want a reticle that is difficult to see as magnification increases.

So I'm seeing that the general consensus is that as time goes on, technological and feature changes are what drive these pushes.
That being said, what do you think is going to be the next big step? For example do you think Athlons model of low cost good scopes is the next wave?

Lifetime warranty is nice.  But not much of a bonus if the scope is junk.  I had a lifetime warranty on a gas grill.  When I tried to get parts, they were bankrupt.  So there is that too.

Big part of it.

S&B, Nightforce, Khales and the Vortex Razor scopes are all top notch.  None of those options are budget friendly, not my budget anyways.  Athlon is stealing Vortex's market share with mostly Chinese optics, I do believe the Cronus is made in Japan, but I'm still not going to take a chance on one when you can find the Bushnell DMR II for the same price.

The new Vortex PST II is a good choice in it's price range, but it's not going to stack up with any of the options listed above.  They're good enough tactical scopes with a great warranty.

I think the Bushnell DMR's fill a hole in the market.  Great features, magnification range and priced between the Vortex PST II/Burris XTR II and the Vortex Razor and above options.

I'm still looking for a steal on a T5XI 3-15.

There's a lot of things that have changed in the past 5-10 years.

S&B PMII's were THEEEE shit back in those days.  Now, with their military contracts, and not so stellar warranty complaints (ie read: 2 people posted on 10 forums so now everyone thinks 90% of the new scopes have tracking problems) really have had them fall out of favor.

NF/Kahles/Vortex (in no particular order) are really skyrocketing in popularity in PRS matches.  Gen 1/2 Kahles had tracking issues.

US Optics is highly underrated in my opinion. You could pretty much get any option you could ever want on one.  I just think the scope design is kinda funky.  In the end, lets face it, a lot of what we purchase is initially because of looks.

Steiner's are really nice for the money as well.

I think a lot of people get hung up on optical clarity and mechanical accuracy.  As far as I'm concerned, if you're not tracking within .04% of 20+mil adjustment, but its repeatable, then there shouldn't be an issue.  Just write it in your DOPE book.

I personally think optical clarity is completely subjective.  NF gives me headaches when I look through them, I love Kahles, and have never looked through a S&B.

Hell, my buddy and I took a US Optics and pre SWFA Super Sniper to the range, and compared.  We were both shocked that at 200 yards, they looked pretty damn close.  My buddy was pissed he paid that much for a scope that looked almost the same as a $400+ scope.  However, top glass is remarkable these days.