First of all this is in no way an implication that the .308win is superior to, or even equal to the 6.5CM for long range precision shooting . I have no agenda other than to show the difference, I love doing this stuff, going over the numbers, then trying the stuff out. I see the claims on how bad the .308win is and the examples brought up are always using low BC sub-200gr bullets that do perform much poorer than the 6.5CM offerings . We have better choices now and the gap isn't as large as people think.

A 140gr 6.5mm bullet scaled up to 30cal is a 230gr bullet, so the 230gr bullet is the proper bullet to compare to a 140 6.5mm for long range performance not a 175.
I have shot hundreds of the Berger 230OTM so those are are what I used for this comparison due to the actual data I collected. I have shot them at both of the listed velocities at several distances to 1052yds so I have confirmed the BC and ballistic calculations are accurate. If you don't believe in math and ballistics calculators and advanced ballistics calculators(WEZ hit probability calcs) then stop reading now. TLDR: skip to the charts.

Most of my loads were at very long lengths so it was all single feed, I decided to work up a load for mag length also to see if it could be more practical.

The new mag length load: average of 2-10 shot  MV 2326fps/average SD 9fps/ average ES 24fps
230 OTM(1.603", HBN coated)
2.840"oal( 0.420" off the lands)
Lapua brass 2.010" 56gn h2o cap
Partial neck size .001"-.0015" neck tension
Wolf large rifle
41.6gr W748
Rem 700 20" Bartlein 1:10 twist with 2170 rnds and 582 rnds since cleaned
If you try this load take note of the long freebore, if you have a short throat that pressure will go much higher I would guess, so no matter what work up from a lower charge. I started at 36.5gr(2073 fps) Have to be careful when you have zero load data

My long load at 3.245"(0.010" off lands)averages 2400fps and I use 47.7gr of W760 for it.

Now to be fair my 230gr numbers are from a 20" barrel so I had to use 6.5CM velocities from a 20" barrel. Many people are building 18-20" 6.5CMs so it wasn't too hard to find 20" velocities. From what I saw, people were getting 2600-2675 from 140gr bullets out of 20" barrels so I picked 2600fps and 2700fps to use with my 140gr Hybrid(high BC)and 2300fps and 2400fps for the 230gr OTM.

I threw in a 178eld on some of the sections I thought relevant

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The chart below shows danger space, hit probability with a +/-1mph and 2 mph wind reading error, and the hit probability reduction from a good SD to bad SD on various sized targets at different ranges.

Danger space(for our uses, not some military artillery definition)  is basically a range of error one can have in ranging a target of a certain size and still hit it. A flat shooting bullet will have more room for range error.

Hit probability based on wind reading ability is self explanatory, how well can you read the wind and the benefit of getting better at it. For this the settings were a SD of 8fps, +/-1 yard ranging, atmospherics were within a Kestrels accuracy, and a .7moa shooter/rifle/ammo setup.

Hit probability reduction from SD is to show that the flatter shooting bullet is less effected by a poorer SD.













Next is MV ES vertical, wind drift and time of flight at distances.

Muzzle velocity ES vertical spread is another flatness comparison, it is showing the total vertical point of impact one could expect from a muzzle velocity extreme spread of 30fps. Your slowest bullet fired to your fastest bullet fired.

Wind drift is obvious, 10mph full wind, spin drift is turned "off" so wind direction has no effect. Spin drift "on" will add or remove drift depending on wind direction. Different twists rates alter drift so we don't want that effecting the raw numbers.

Time of flight effects many things but not a very useful number for this comparison.









This stuff isn't really relevant to making hits on a paper or steel targets really but more info so.....






Here they are mag length.






The new 200.20x with it's .328 BC would be a great choice for .308 too, it has a slightly lower hit probability  but it's possibility for flatness will help and may minimize some variables(poor ranging, poor SD/ES) enough to make up for it. I cannot get these to work up a load so I could only guess MV based on my 185gr and 210gr velocities, I don't like using guesses so I didn't add it to this.


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For those wondering about recoil.
I loaded up some 155s to 2450fps, according to calculators this is the same recoil as a 140gr at 2640fps with this weight rifle.
I shot the 140gr recoil simulation and the 230gr mag length load( 2320fps), 5 and 5 loaded into the mag. I fired these sitting so the recoil difference would be more obvious.

Here is the vid, I labeled the rounds so you can tell which is which. (shooting a 10" plat @100)

Tag. Thanks popnfresh your contribution to this site is great

Too much real world data not enough arguing and chest thumping.  I'm going back to the 9mm vs 45 threads.

Math and science, FTW!

Thanks for the effort.

Great work popnfresh. As always, keep up the great info you post on this forum.

Oh, you're pointing them too?

Holy dynamic data overload batman! Awesome work, I might keep my 308 AI barrel after all.

You mentioned and highlighted chamber pressure. Where are you on your chamber pressure? How is that measured outside of a "factory setting"?
What about recoil? I notice the difference between 168 and 175 or 180. Have you measured the 230 with your loads?
FYI, If I wind up with a reloading bench in an empty bedroom, I will blame you.

Yes, it seemed to have no effect on the BC, maybe more consistent  I don't  know I have not done a pointed and unpointed side by side at long range. It doesn't take long to trim with the Giraud trimmer pointing is pretty quick. These have pretty good meplats out of the box so I maybe wasting my time.

Should probably thank him. You will understand why when you reload.

Well as far as pressure, if my ammo sits in the sun(I try to avoid that) on a warm 90+ degree day, I will get up to 2450fps and start getting hard bolt lift on my long loads. When I was working up the mag length load at the range my  powder measure was sitting in the sun so the powder got to 95 degrees( measured with my IR thermometer)and it started flattening primers at 42+ gr(2345fps which is compressed anyway) but still no hard bolt lift.

I use W748 in many different loads, and in using Quickload for this load I had to drop the burn rate way down to match what I actually getting. I can only assume it is because of the very long freebore. I also worked up with W760, QL predicted I would get only slightly lower MV than the W748 that but was not the case, it was 200fps slower(at 100% load density) not 50fps slower that was predicted. I just couldn't get the pressure up mainly because of the long freebore(speculation), it slows the burn rate I think from the start. As we know pressure and temperature increase burn rate.

Quickload tells me these are 63k psi loads at 2325fps and 2400 fps, using handloading pressure guidelines, bolt lift, primers flatness, extraction, they are not over pressure loads, using my PressureTraceII strain gage to check chamber pressure, the long load is 63k psi but that(strain gage) is really only for comparing loads not actually determining accurate pressure readings. They don't need to be this fast either, I chose these load because they were in the middle of a velocity plateau, 25-50fps slower wont make too much difference.




This is about ballistics only so I didn't add in cost or recoil or barrel life but those are certainly thing to consider but are also harder to put a number on. Price is easy, the 230s are expensive, I order 400-500-600 at a time when Brownells sends me a $30-35 off $300 coupon, I have 500 coming this week for $0.53 each normally $0.690.59.

Barrel life, who knows. I have 1300 of these 230s through this barrel so far and 2125 total rounds still shoots good.

Recoil, well QL has a thing for recoil, not sure I understand it, my rifle is 17lbs(used for calc)

140gr@2600=5.61ft/lb
140gr@2700=5.99ft/lb
175gr@2655=8.04ft/lb
230gr@2300=9.31ft/lb
230gr@2400=10.13ft/lb

I have a brake and the recoil is certainly more than my 168 and 175 short range plinker loads but not bad. This vid is the 2400fps load.

For the record I DO NOT own a Creedmoor. I want to, but I don't.

I LOVE the heavy .308 loads. My new favorite is the 212 Hornady ELD X. This thing rocks. The G1 is really close to factory specs and I only have to load to 3.01 to get some great performance from an 18" barrel using RL17. I average about 2425 FPS and with the BC and elevation where I live it is ridiculous what can be accomplished with this combo. BTW, LC LR brass at 2.010, CCI Primers.

For those wondering about recoil.
I loaded up some 155s to 2450fps, according to calculators this is the same recoil as a 140gr at 2640fps with this weight rifle.
I shot the 140gr recoil simulation and the 230gr mag length load( 2320fps), 5 and 5 loaded into the mag. I fired these sitting so the recoil difference would be more obvious.

Here is the vid, I labeled the rounds so you can tell which is which. (shooting a 10" plate@100)

Great job popnfresh. Now I kind of know what you look like. Wish I had Hornady's radar that goes out to 1000 yards to do a test like this and track the bullet. Guess one could input this info into a ballistic app to get an idea on trajectory. Thanks again.

All you need is a good BC and muzzle velocity.....and ballistic solver. I used the Applied Ballistics Analytics but you could get the same info from any solver. You don't need radar if you already have the correct BC.

I have Mil-Dot ballistics app on my phone so should do. Need to find a better one that has scopes I use.

I am not familiar with that app, Strelok has a shitload of reticles, AB Mobile only has a few, I don't use them anyway but.......

Cool stuff. Thanks for posting it.

tag for later!

Interesting to see the 230 in a 308...

I use the Berger 215 in my 300WM 20", didn't think the 230s would outperform it but I'll test it out some day.

The new lots of 215hyb-230otm Bergers are so close it is unlikely to show much difference, the 215s might even be better due to the added speed.
Off memory new lots:
215hyb= .356bc
230otm= .364bc
230hyb= .368bc


The 215 hybrids are harder to stabilize(according to Berger stability calc) than the 230 OTMs so I stuck with the 230s for my 10twist. Also the 215s have longer noses so I couldn't load them to .308 mag length.

I am thinking a new factory/wildcat ammo called 308 POP.
I have decided to dive into the depths of reloading. I will do my research and make my decisions soon.
Popnfresh will be blamed within my walls. Mrs. Zach may well find you. She is very resourceful.

Just tell her you can't afford not to reload, you can make your own match grade ammo at half the cost. You'll save about $.75 per round, $750 every thousand rounds you load. The more handloads you shoot the more money you make

But seriously, even with these expensive Bergers, Lapua brass and components not bought in bulk(I buy in bulk online) my load is $.80per round, if you shoot a lot, you do save money and will pay for your equipment. Your time is another issue, it is another hobby in itself. I have been doing it for years and now have a lot of time saving equipment so I can load 100 rounds in no time. I have a portable reloading setup that sits in front of the couch most of the time and can do most mindless operations(case and bullet prep) while watching a movie so I don't even count that time.

I am hoping to be able to make a bench out of a roll away cart that will be able to move from room to room if need be. We have people coming for the Holidays, and taking over an entire room is not an option right now. The garage is, well, too full with adult children's stuff yet to be taken to their current address. I am forbidden to dispose of the items until after the turn of the year.
Meanwhile, I have about 2k of my 308 168 GMMK and 223 55 Blitzking. I have  kept every piece of 308 I have ever shot. Lots of 243, and 223 as well. A shooter I know said the PPU brass is better than the GMMK. I probably have a couple hundred of those. I still want to buy and use premium brass and other components once I get rolling. My grandfather reloaded, his old equipment has been with my cousin for the last 30 years.
Popnfresh, I really appreciate the effort you put in your posts.

I use a Frankfort Arsenal pedestal mount with a press and powder measure mounted and that covers all my needs but full length sizing, it is a bit flimsy for that, so you do need a stable platform to mount your only press.

While I have not tried all of them,  I'm sure you can get good results from any brass providing you sort by head stamps.

I'm glad my efforts are appreciated, I try to be thorough.

Measured pressure today with my Pressure Trace II, as I mentioned earlier, these readings are for comparing loads and not necessarily actual pressures, the muzzle velocities are from  my magnetospeed. I added another image which is from a more standard round(my 175smk load) on a similar in conditions day to compare.







My 175smk load

Lots of good data, thanks for posting.

I am not going to sit here and make an argument against the 308 but those that do argue for the caliber, state that barrel life and off the shelf ammo are reasons to go with the caliber, which raises questions for me.

Can you purchase 230 grain ammo off the shelf?

Will shooting the heavier 230 grain ammo reduce barrel life compared to a 168 grain load?

HSM has a 210gr Berger Hunting VLD load.

Doubt it.  Shooting slower MV ammo might extend bbl life as opposed to shooting higher MV ammo.

I presume that depends how hot the 230 is loaded. Isn't barrel wear caused by higher pressure of the load?

Less powder to burn, more shank to drag across the lands, longer burn time due to slower bullet velocity.



Still depends on the components used, but I think longer/heavier bullets loaded to the same chamber pressure will result in a little less barrel life.

This is not about selling a cartridge or saying one is better than another. I wanted to point out it isn't the terrible round(ballistic performance) it is made out to be if a decent bullet is used. I disregard the ammo availability argument. I have no interest in factory ammo, I keep tons of components on hand, I couldn't care less if walmart ever sold a .308 win round again.

I now have put 1400 of these through this barrel and 2362 rounds total (the remainder being 168s and 175s).
The bearing lengths are a bit longer, I happen to be running higher pressure because that is what the gun "liked" and my long load is using nearly 48 grains of powder so all of those may/do contribute to barrel death but only time will tell how long this bbl will last.
I like the .308 for the barrel life and wide range of bullets that can be used, perhaps I am losing on the barrel life aspect with the heavy bullets.

Just to add something about barrel life and ammo availability. None of that is really relevant.

This load would not replace every single round fired.
This is something for the average Joe Shmoe such as myself who has zero interest in competing with anyone other than themselves and they don't live on a 1500yard range.

90% of the time I am stuck on a 200yard range, what is the point in using a barrel burner round(not that 6.5CM is that bad) at 200yds? There is no point in it. So during that time I can fire the barrel friendly 168s,155s, 175s, etc.
Then on the occasion I shoot long range, I can fire these superior bullets that are really not much different than a 6.5CM when it comes banging steel for pleasure. Yep, they may be hard on the barrel but  so many fewer are fired. So maybe I only get 5.5k  rounds instead of 6.5k big deal.


As far as factory ammo, according to my poll about 75% reload so I guess the 25% are shit out of luck, though I think we will be seeing higher BC factory stuff coming in the future.

Nice analysis, but seems a bit on the slow side.  My 20" barrell sends 140g hybrids at 2770.  Most guys I know are in the upper 2800's.

how far over max are you to do that with a 20"?
yesterday at a half grain over max, I was doing 2760 with 130 hybrids and a 24" barrel.

He has less air to deal w/.

I just looked at several forums to get an idea of MVs from a 20", I assumed their would be some getting faster.



As you can see from everything I posted, 100fps doesn't make much difference.

So take your 2800 fps load and subtract a couple inches of wind at 1K, add a percent or two to hit probability, maybe add a yard or two to danger space. The numbers change very little.

What kind of groups are you getting at 1000yds with these?

It's nice to see all the data at the muzzle, but do you have pics of the 1000yd targets?

The reason I ask is because I have personally seen issues with looser twist in the .308 yielding unpredictable results at distance.

If you go with a 1/9 or tighter twist, then the .308 really shines at distance, even though the trajectory is still mortar-like in many cases.

When I put a rod through the holes of a small mattress box I shot with my 130gr Berger VLD load from my .260 Remington at 1000yds, I was astonished at how flat it was.

Even with a purposeful ignore of a wind speed change, I had a 9.25" group the first time I ever shot the rifle at 1000yds with that load.  First 2 rounds with the same wind hold were 4" from each other.

No I cannot get to my targets at 1052yds(without a mule)so I cannot get a picture. Best I can do is measure with my reticle, 30-40 shot groups average 1.7moa(1/2mil)(19") at 1052 yards. I shoot 100-150 rounds per trip so I don't consider looking at a few rounds, I want to see what the load/rifle/me actually does over 20-30-40 shots.

I have fired several hundred of these at my long range( 340-1052) and the results are always very close going with AB custom drag curve. I compare actual drop to AB Mobile prediction every time.

These results are from last time out, it was very cold and lost quite a bit of velocity from the W760 load, they were both about 100 yds into transonic. Both loads were on one zero on the scope and zero offsets were recorded into each loads zero data, 100yd POI had 1 1/2" vert difference. The fact that certain distances may match is due to the 100yard POI difference.

Load 1....ABmobile.....Actual
343 yd.....2.0mil.......2.0mil
500 yd.....3.9mil.......3.9mil
563 yd.....4.7mil.......4.7mil
687 yd.....6.3mil.......6.2mil
757 yd.....7.4mil.......7.4mil
1052yd....12.6mil....12.8mil

Load 2....ABmobile.....Actual

343 yd.....1.7mil.......1.7mil
500 yd.....3.7mil.......3.7mil
563 yd.....4.5mil.......4.5mil
687 yd.....6.3mil.......6.4mil
757 yd.....7.4mil.......7.6mil
1052yd....12.8mil....13.0mil

Pretty damn predicable considering the 500" of drop.

This is what I generally get from this load at 100. 
10shot

I note that you shoot a 20".
Any opinion on what 4 additional inches of barrel would do for your load (yes, I have a 24" )

Nick

Maybe 75-100 fps from my rifle, yours will have to be worked up. I think my looong freebore really helped the mag length load and obviously helps the long load.

I have not done a side by side test with my PressureTrace, HBN coated vs. naked but I assume the coating lowers the pressure some. I might get a bit more velocity due to the coating.

His 230gr load at 2320fps would do about 2392fps from a 24" barrel of equal make.

I'll take shorter barrels with higher BCs and higher twist rates most of the time when looking at barrel length.

As usual, interesting work, pop.

Man, you did a whole lot of work to prove what was already known! LOL!!  If you have no interest in competing, why is this even an issue? Using that same logic, you could also easily skip the .308 and get into the .223.  Run an 80gr VLD at 2800 and you are damn close, if not better than, a vast majority of .308 loads for the distances you mentioned.  Save on components, using small rifle primers, almost zero recoil, and barrel life until doomsday, you're set!

LOL, apparently you don't know, if you are thinking a 80VLD would ever compete with the loads I listed.

The " vast majority of .308 loads"  and "did a whole lot of work" comments tells me you didn't read anything I posted. The whole point is shitty 175 gr loads are not good long range rounds.
It is a bad comparison to compare a great bullet in 6.5 to a shitty bullet in 30. 

Competition has nothing to do with desire to hit a target. 
BTW I shoot 90SMKs from my .223.

This is really cool.  Could you boil this down to a simple chart like so, but for 6.5 CM, so I could compare it to your .308 one?

Excellent analysis!  THANKS!  I'd like to see a 6.5CM, .260 Remington, 6.5x55 analysis as well as I am considering all three of these for my next rifle (bolt gun).

Put them in that other thread.

There isn't enough difference between them  really to make a decision based on external ballistics. They can all shoot the same bullet to approximately the same speeds. Which ever can shoot a given bullet fastest is going to be the winner, all things being equal. 

You can see above on the first table with the 140hybrid, the extra 100fps didn't increase hit percent very much. So when choosing between them, factors other than external ballistics would probably carry more weight.

Hey Popn

I dont work with .308 (even though i have a gas gun setup and ready to go) but one day i will once i get done with some projects.

(P.s. HRB, no scopes yet :(  )

But do you think your loads will run well in a gas gun?

Very interesting data considering how many people are running towards 6.5... Yet the .308 remains leggy according to your info with the right bullet.