Gentlemen, looking for some more opinions on where you would go from here.

Working up loads for Savage 10 6.5CM. All rnds used virgin Hornady brass (only neck sized prior too loading),CCI LR primers, IMR4350, and loaded to 2.245 to ogive--which is just touching lands. Used Berger 140gr Hybrid TGTs and 140gr Barnes MB BT. Shots were at 100yds. I had problems with my chrony so no speeds, which really pissed me off but plan to borrow a V3 for the next trip if I can't get mine up and running.

Rifle now has 210rnds through it. Based on some of the groups I think it may be capable of under 3/4 MOA but I, as is often the case, need work to get it there.

My shitty shooting made this a little more difficult and looking for more opinions. A few groups were pretty nice then I got the customary flyer to screw it up.

Based on the below TGTs I am planning to fine tune the powder weights from 41-42.6gr. Moving up every .3gr. I'm out of Barnes MBs but will pick up another box since a couple of those groups showed some promise. After that I plan to pick the best weight then play with seating depth.

I also have a box of Lapua 139 scenar and 140gr Berger Hunting VLD I need to play with.


Some of you with more experience developing loads, what would you do?

FYSA, TGTs are 2in circles.

Berger Hybird TGT:


Barnes MBs:


Not sure what happened at 41.5...

I'd start by getting the bullets .020 out of the lands and going from there.

I do my load development now with a chrono and shoot .2 grain increments and look for nodes in the velocity and do my loads that way.

Do you usually start at .020 or just after testing with them touching/jammed?

Just trying to understand your methodology since there are so many methods/opinions out there.

Looks like your headed in right direction, like mentioned change seating depth and play with powder, if it were me I'd try federal primers too. Got a good rest??

there are tons away, buy very few bullets actually like to be on or in the lands.  Berger VLD's tend to but the hybrids are jump tolerant.  Ive seen a lot of bullets will shoot a ragged single hole 4 shot group and kick one out when they are in the lands.

Gotcha. Appreciate it, will load several up and back them off and see what they do. Think I'll do .2gr increments as well.

Shooting off a Harris bipod. I'm also sitting down at a bench which I'm not a fan of as the shooting area is enclosed and not enough room for my lanky ass to lay down and have people walk behind me. I also forgot my rear bag.

Bipod with sand bag under rear works well, try federal primers and see if it makes a difference, clean barrel and foul it then try again

In both cases, 42.0 looked good.

The problem is the step size of 0.5 gr is too large to find an accuracy node than might only be 0.25 wide.

I seat .010" off the lands or mag length depending.

Work up to max pressure recording velocities 
I bring my press to the range to do this.

I look for  plateaus where velocity doesn't change with increasing charge weight.

I  pick the charge weight in the middle to low end of the plateau nearest max and load up 10, shoot a group. Almost always this is where I end development. It takes about 30-40 rounds and an hour ir two. 

I use the same powder and primers and brass for everything, I don't play with seating depths ( anymore ). I spend very little time or components anymore on development , the small gains in accuracy don't  translate to a big increase in hits at long range.



This has not failed me yet, but there are limits i suppose where tinkering may gain a bit of accuracy. I don't find that tinkering to be worth the time effort and money. Going from .8 moa to .7moa is not much benefit when the wind drift is 6-10" per mph at distance. 


I would look further into the Bergers at 40.5 to 42.5.

Other than the seating depth I choose and bringing the press this is the same process I've settled on.  You (popnfresh), a few videos on youtube, and my recent experience have led me to this conclusion.

I enjoy shooting a lot more than loading.  I think right now at least 1/2 moa of my group size or POI errors are on me, so if I find a load that consistently groups of 1 moa or better and I get first round and consecutive hits on 500yd or further steel I'm more than happy.

This might sound horrible to those who are chasing sub 1/2 moa groups for F-Class or bench rest shooting, but I'm not one of them.

1. Lower your charge weight steps...0.5 gr increments is WAY TOO BIG and you could miss a node entirely

2. Do not try shooting group with the Magnetospeed attached when you borrow it. Some folks will deny it affects the groupings, but it does because you're actually "re-tuning" the barrel by placing it on there. Do all load development first, find a few groups that looks good at certain nodes, and then reload them and shoot with the v3 attached to get velocities.

3. You also might very well get an amazing group of every shot touching but when you chrony it, find out it has crappy SD/ES numbers. Be willing mentally to resist the temptation of seeing a "cloverleaf group" and wanting to go with it when a group shooting 0.5"-0.7" has twice or three times as good of SD/ES data.

4. Deburr your flash holes. "Virgin" Hornady brass is ok, but of the roughly 800 pieces of virgin Hornady 6.5 CM brass I've bought in the 50 round packs and loaded, most of the flash holes needed deburring. You can shoot just fine without doing it, but it'll help lower your SD/ES somewhat and once done will never have to be done again.

5. You stated you are neck sizing only? Why just neck sizing...why not also deburring, checking case lengths, uniforming primer pockets, etc.? Again, you can shoot "ok" without doing so, but you might as well since it'll only help your numbers

6. Every factory Savage 6.5 CM I've done load development for (from 22" to 26" barrels) loved the bullets at 0.015" to 0.025" off the lands. Bullets used included VLD Targets, VLD hunting, AMAX from 120-140 gr, ELD-M, and ELD-X. I would definitely back off the lands. As stated by another member, mine also did not shoot well when I loaded some closer to the lands with powder charges that were proven to shoot 0.5" when back about 0.020" off the lands.

7. You don't mention your barrel length, but with the weight class bullets you're using (and if you'd come back to about 0.020" off) I believe you'd find a node in the 41.7 gr - 42.1 gr range. I had great luck in that range (granted I only use H4350) but shooting buddies using IMR4350 also had good luck around there. As always, start low and work up and watch for pressure.

8. If you're actually able to load to 2.245" ogive and touch the lands that is good in terms of your chamber length and being able to load them longer. My factory Savage 6.5 barrels were always a little shorter and for reference in my 26" Criterion I'm at 2.214" ogive at 0.020" off

9. 43+ gr of IMR4350 or H4350 under a 140 gr bullet is likely cooking...and I'd be willing to bet that when you chrony that load, you see pressure spikes in the forms of horrible SD/ES. I've had many loads shoot good, tight groups at 100 yards but were pressure spiking. I'd be interested to see what your brass/primer looked like considering you're that high in charge weight

Best of luck and keep us posted

.5 grains is not too big a step for 6.5 Creedmoor, .308 or .30-06.

.5 grain represents approximately 25 to 30 fps difference in velocity when loading these rounds.

If you can't find accuracy nodes in increments that small you're not going to find them smaller. .3 grains is useful when developing loads in .223, it's a bit tedious in anything much bigger than 6.5 Grendel, 6.8SPC or any other case using under 30 grains of powder.

For the OP's powder selection, H4350 is the preferred powder for the 6.5 Creedmoor and it is different than the IMR version. Try 123 grain SMK's and Lapua's 123, 136 or 139 Scenar. Berger 130 VLD's are known performers as well.

So I guess how I found a node multiple times using different projectiles in different guns chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor in smaller charge weight increments than 0.5 gr, and then as I proceeded upward or downward in weights the groups started opening more and SD/ES started to increase, is just fluff? Lol, ok

I mean by that logic, you are now suggesting that the OP should not even investigate even further and that the groups he's got above in the 0.5 gr increments are the best his rifle can do??

If you're serious about dialing in your reloads, you're going to do powder increments finer than 0.5 grains. Doing so and knowing velocities down to the tenth and even hundredth of a grain of powder makes or breaks you in competitions. Why not strive for knowing your rifle better than just to 0.5 grains.

Yes I am saying that. I've participated in over 200 tournaments in the last 35 years and can say with confidence that .5 grain increments is plenty fine for this cartridge.

The idea that someone should monkey around with .1 grain on a load that weighs over 40.0 is wasted effort.

If you can't find a great load using .5 increments then you need to try different primers or a different powder.

Great info and I appreciate the effort typing that up.

I bought the Hornady brass understanding it wasn't the greatest or most consistent brass but it's relatively inexpensive and got me started. I have 100 pieces of Alpha brass to play with once I get a little more practice with some of the advanced techniques.    

I measured a few of the pieces prior to neck sizing to see how consistent they were. They were close enough for me to not think it was worth the effort to run them through the trimmer. Further, the plan was to get all the necks uniform as many were dinged/not uniform and then get them fireformed.  I am going to measure a handful again and see what they did after the first firing. Like neck turning, I decided uniforming primer pockets' time/benefit ratio isn't worth it.  

Encouraging info regarding backing off the lands, I will definitely do that for this next load. Like I mentioned earlier I am going to change increments to .3gr and see what it does. The barrel is the standard 24in Savage 10T.

I must have measured my chamber 100 times, then checked online to get an idea what other guys were getting, then went and measured 100 more times. Another reason I started touching the lands was to see what the no shit max powder charge was. I started low and worked up to 43.3, which as you pointed out, is high.  There was some primer cratering, which I was expecting to see at the lower charge weights, but that coupled with the poor group was enough to call it good there.

I wanted H4350 but the few places I looked were out and I wasn't about to wait. Some had success with IMR and it is abundant where I am so I snatched some up. Don't get me wrong, I have a buy on site for H4350 policy but the shit is gone within minutes.

I actually have some 139 Scenar-L sitting on the bench as we speak and plan to give those a go soon. Haven't messed with anything lighter but will likely pick up some lighter bullets the next go round.


I should never have gone down this path. This shit is 100x more addictive and enjoyable (and expensive) than dicking with ARs.  And to think I have yet to start messing with custom actions.  The Bighorn TL3 is calling,  more like screaming, my name...

Lol, are you serious?

Man it's getting deep in here fellas, make sure your waders are on or your pants are rolled up. This cat right here just told us we've all been doing it wrong and using the wrong primers and powder. By that logic 75% of us should probably not even be using H4350 or Federal 210 primers in which the very founders of the 6.5 Creedmoor used when it was developed

Roger that man, I think you'll find yourself a nice node somewhere in there. And whatever you do, when you start using the Alpha brass (which is AMAZING brass), PLEASE DO NOT follow that guy's advice of "if you can't find a node using 0.5 gr increments...you should change powders and primers"...that's just absurd and really a poor choice of information to pass onto someone like yourself trying to learn how to fine tune loads.

That is absurd .5 grains will blow past nodes.  I have a node in my 6mm Creedmoor using alpha that is .3 wide.  .5 would blow past that completely.  

alpha brass is great stuff.  You definitely need to load a bit less powder as the brass is thicker than hornady by quite a bit.  

Not that Borderpatrol needs to be defended, but I have seen his point.

Lets not get too GD about it, the guy obviously has more match experience than most of us and he isn't being flippant.

There area few examples of standardized rifles, like government contracts, where we find a Goldilocks load and almost every example shoots that load well. But that word is almost, not all.

In some instances, those rifles just wouldn't shoot worth a darn until someone just tried a different load, and it brought that particular rig to life. These comments are based on Remington 700 bolt actions that you would assume were all the same. Clearly there are pet loads like the Federal Match that work well in the vast majority, but there were always examples that did better with something different.

Primers can be batch to batch sensitive, as well as instances where a particular recipe really wants a different one for whatever reason. You just have to live long enough and you will see these things come and go.

As to the OP, I would ask if you had much time on bags from a solid bench? The bipod isn't the first place I start someone because it is more difficult. Getting the rig to shoot from a solid bench off of bags first would then tell you if what you are getting from the bipod is due to your technique or if that is as good as she gets.

Also, being jammed isn't the best thing for reliability. If you just can't get it to work any other way, then fine, but it isn't a friendly thing to do when hunting or competing where you may have to unload or make safe.

Seating nodes exist, just like velocity nodes. The suggestion I will make is to back off 0.005" from jammed and look at charge weight first. In a separate session, take a hand press and your seater with you to the range, and load a batch at that reference length and charge, then slowly bump them down 0.005" to look for any other nodes.

We see this in Service Rifles all the time for the 80 SMK hand fed loads for the 600 yard line. Once the speed is found, we can generally see two seating depth nodes about 0.030 apart. Other designs and reamers can change the pattern, but often it is generally the case that seating depth can make a significant difference and is worth the look.

Try running your Ladder or OCW with seating just off the lands and see if you find at least two nodes. Your technique on that bipod may be partly to blame, so try from bags first and do enough dry fire to convince yourself your position and technique are good before you load ammo.

Good Luck, you will get there!

I'm with you that sometimes rifles might find nodes using a big increment (hell, anything can happen at some point in time). But telling the OP that his rifle won't shoot any better than what he's got in the above groups and that he should just change powders and primers is being a bit flippant in regards to helping the OP. There's no denying that...

And while we're on the subject of not having a respectful attitude...telling a vast majority of the reloading community, specifically BR, PRS, etc-type competition shooters, that they're doing their load development wrong and wasting their time (when their methods are proven to win more matches) is also being flippant

I will keep it technical but I am PRS shooter.   Immon ym way to a PRS match this weekend.  I would recommend .2 increments in that cartridge size and o do my load development by looking for velocity modes over group size like popnfresh and some of the other guys know.  You might get lucky to catch something at .5 but chances are better that you blow right past it. 

Yep, and keeping some graphs of the data to look back on is always a good move.

Good luck in the match

I know without a doubt shooting off the bench with bipod on the hard surface had some to do with it.  I'll likely go to another range this next time (probably not this weekend as the weather is supposed to be shit here) where I know I'll be able to get prone and in a better shooting position. I'm confident that with smaller load increments and backing them off it will show some good nodes and tighten up a bit. Got the chrony up and running as well, so that'll go a long way into figuring out what actually is going on.

I also lightened the Accutrigger as much as it will allow which should around 1.5lb and ordered a kydex riser for the stock. It could use a better trigger and stock but trying to keep the cost down as this was my "learner" gun and plan to get a rifle built once I determine exactly what I want.

Thanks again fellas. Will update once I'm able to get back out.

I am just getting into reloading and Creedmoor is where I am starting for a bolt gun.  Have any of you had luck with R17?  I've negative on the IMR 4350 but was lucky to score 2 pounds of H 4350 to start.

I personally only use H4350, but check out the sticky in this section about 6.5 recipes. I'm pretty sure I have seen RL17 in there. I'd also check over on Snipers Hide as I know for certain I've read many threads about the 6.5 CM and RL17. Quite a few guys are also using RL16 in the 6.5 CM as I believe it is supposed to be even better in regards to temp stability

Yeah, I want to say I've read success stories with 17, great speeds, but it supposedly not very temp stable. 16 is supposedly much more stable.

I'll also second the sniper hide recommendation. I'm not a member, just reading for now.  The reloading section has an excellent precision reloading how-to. It's broken down step by step in different threads. The author doesn't use any special/expensive equipment so it's new loader friendly.  His articles are what got me started and headed in the right direction.

There is also a load section which has tons of different loads guys have had succes with. I'm sure you know but be careful with using others data. Double check it and start low.

1. adjust seating depth.

THEN

2. adjust charge

I won't touch 17 because of instability, but 16 is some pretty solid stuff.

www.accurateshooter.com has excellent forums and plenty of discussions about 6.5 Creedmoor. The OP should camp out there as well.

Some load combinations are naturally good and messing with small increments (.1 or .2 grains) to tighten the group is worthwhile for fine tuning. But this is only after discovering what works best in .5 grain increments.

I look for a load that prints to the same point of impact over a half grain or more powder change, then split the difference between the high and low charge. Any load that is so picky it needs to be held to .2 grains or less gets shit canned by me. I'm not willing to accept that tight a window of operation.

A good load needs to be a good load over a wide range of temperature and easily thrown from a good powder measure without hand weighing every charge. Extruded powders are my favorite, not because the can't be thrown really well, but because they will shoot great groups in spite of it.

If you are in fact shooting in 800/900/1000 yard Palma or 1000 yard F-Class/Bench Rest tournaments, then by all means weigh every charge. But for any ammo intended for mid-range or short range it's a pain that need not be endured.

I have lots of great loads and most of them are standards because they work. If you want a .308 load that hammers and doesn't need to be fine tuned simply load Winchester .308 commercial brass and set your powder measure to throw between 42.0 to 42.5 grains of IMR-4064 and seat 168 Sierra Match King bullet at 2.800".  Powder charges will be all over the map if weighed individually. The bullets will nearly go through the same hole on target.

I throw 24.5 grains of Varget when loading 69 grain Sierra Match Kings in .223 and seat them at 2.250". I can shoot clean scores with high X counts at 300 yards with hand thrown loads that are not individually weighed. Varget is not known for it's consistency when thrown. IMR-4064 is one of the worst.

Both of these loads will easily shoot 1 MOA without being hand weighed. Both of these loads are forgiving when it comes to charge weights. Because of that they are fantastic loads. H-4350 is a known performer in 6.5 Creedmoor because it's forgiving and performs well over a rather large window of charges. Much like the loads I just posted. I would continue to shop for the H variety of 4350, placing requests to be notified at every website that allows it and purchase immediately it when it becomes available.  

I jump Sierra Match Kings .025" to .030" when single loading for long range. The only bullets I jump less are VLD's, sometimes actually seating them into the rifling .005". SMK's like to be jumped and shoot very well that way. Get a chronograph or borrow one if you belong to club that loans them out. Nowadays decent chronographs are relatively cheap.

Went out again today and put 140rnds through it. Half were with H4350 and the other with IMR4350. All were backed off .020 using 140gr Berger Hybrid TGTs. Had better results this time as I also went prone and installed a cheek riser on the rifle. Chrony was up and running as well. Had a few loads with single digit SD and low ES but some were pretty high as well. Only thing I wasn't happy with when loading was the necks were a little tight, causing some shaving when seating. Using a collet die so need to play with it a little to get it right. I'm also thinking of running them through a FL die to bump them back. After doing some more reading I think the loads will do just fine without having to worry about them getting sticky after a few firings.

The rifle really liked IMR at 40.6gr, however, the avg fps was 2667 which isn't where I want it. It also did well with 41.8gr traveling at 2757fps and a SD of 11. Which is better but I was looking for 2800fps. At 42.6 I had 2805fps with an SD of 6 and ES of 16. However, of the 5 rnds 3 were touching with two "flyers" which I attribute to myself. 42.4 did well also. These numbers looked great so I plan to load up several more and see how it goes. I may also push it a little faster and see what happens.

41.8 IMR4350:  



42.6 IMR 4250: (its sideways for some reason)




Below are the best loads with H4350. I only loaded up to 41.6, which I was kicking myself (though I was getting tired toward the end of this load) as the velocities I was looking for were starting to show up. The SD/ES numbers here weren't as impressive but I think its more my reloading than anything else. I think I can tighten a few things up and see if I can get them down a bit with the Hornady brass. I'm sure the Alpha will help too once I start in with that. The rifle shot well with 39.6gr at 2664 with a 14 SD. Also did well with 40.4 at 2690 with a 21SD.  41.2gr and 41.4 also showed promise 2741fps and 2758fps SD was 18.

39.6gr H4350:



41.2gr H4350

So many rounds fired.

My load development today and how I always do it. Took me 25 rounds. Very simple and quick.

First I figure my safe load start in Quickload at .010 off lands. Load up some quicky rounds at home to take to the range, to see if they were even worth pursuing. These are 147gr ELD Ms, I wasn't sure if I would get the speed I needed from the Grendel. If the quicky loads weren't promising I would stop(they need to out perform my 140hyb load, need 2390fps to do that).

At the range I fire those rounds, no signs of pressure, looks like I have some room to go so I get out my press and start working up.

Starting at 29.4gr to 30.3(compressed) I see a pretty even spot with a 42fps ES.

My powder is 85° sitting in the sun under a shirt, I want a little room to spare so is choose my load to be 30.0gr, load up 8 and shoot a group without the magneto.

.8moa 8 shot group and I am done, 33 rounds total, this is how I develop all my loads.
This is it, I will not tweak anymore, historically with this method these results will repeat. It will be stable and have good ESs and SDs. Of course I wouldn't consider it a done deal until a few more groups/outings.


Nothing special about my increments, its windy at the range so I just adjust the measure, throw and weigh, if it is at least .1gr more than the last I seat a bullet and fire it. Cannot be too picky when at an outdoor range working up out of the back of my truck bed in the wind.



First 25 shots working up 27.5gr to 30.3 gr,  MVs from 2246fps to 2447fps, don't really care about being careful just looking for pressure signs and velocity. 





Final 8 shot group without magnetospeed. If this were a decent barrel I might expect better, trying to get it .1 or .2 moa tighter is of little benefit really for long range.
Going from .8moa to .6moa means a 0.7% hit increase @1k on a 20x20 and a 1.5% hit increase @500 on a 8x8, not enough improvement for the effort, time and money.  With this Brownells barrel, sub MOA is great IMO.

Rifle is on bipod with a rear bag.

Sure, I am using up components but it's all in the learning process and time behind the rifle and playing with different techniques (reloading/shooting/load dev) is worth it for me. With that said, I definelty could have done some things different, and will next time, but you don't know what you don't know sometimes.

After having read a thousand methods from different people it can be daunting how to proceed. Hell, look at this thread and the differing opinions/techniques. It's not until you get out and shoot to actually experience what the forums/manual/experts are saying to, or at least for me, truly understand what's going on. Even then, as I experienced, you can go shoot some groups thinking your plan is fool proof only to come back scratching your head on how to proceed.

As far as the .5gr increments are concerned, I found this thread while looking around. Which if you look at my first target with the Bergers you'd likely pick 41.5gr based on his technique. Then backing it off .020 would tighten it up. Which it did in my second, most recent, outing though at a slightly higher charge.

Good stuff.

I think to the new precision loader it can be daunting as there is this idea that every aspect has to be absolutely perfect and you need to find your load down to the .001gr/in when developing to get it just right or else you won't hit shit. When in actuality there are methods out there that make it a hell of a lot easier. Trick is to find the information/techniques and then get out there and play with them.

Absolutely.

I remember reading someone on SH saying he quit reloading as he spent to much time in the "load development" stage and was tired of hearing everyone talking about it and chasing groups. He now just shoots factory ammo as it's good enough.

Yep, it can get really out of hand.
When you look at the difference between a .5moa load and 1moa load at long range then compare that to the wind drift of just 1mph wind at that distance, it is clear your time is better spent shooting.

Though, I will say, better precision is very nice for small targets.
My range has a rack at 500 going down to 3" plates. It is waaaaay way easier to hit 3"-6" plates with my .308 which is reliably good for .5moa  than it is with my 6.5G that is 1moa reliable.

Well said. Being an engineer I enjoy chasing after the tiny SD/ES and tinkering with things. But as I get older, work gets busier and time becomes more valuable, I often find myself contemplating just shooting factory ammo :(

This.

10 Round Load Development