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Posted: 1/16/2017 2:44:07 PM EDT
I've narrowed it down to varget and h4895. But it seems to be a big division between users of the 2. I'll be sticking with the 175 and 168 class of bullets.
I have heard the getting as close to 100% case fill benefits accuracy. Thoights? Scott |
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USA
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Posted: 1/16/2017 3:51:36 PM EDT
[#1]
IMR 4064. Next would be Varget. Next Benchmark. They all are great powders IMR 4064 is easiest to get.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 6:52:17 PM EDT
[#2]
Reloader 15
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Posted: 1/16/2017 7:00:08 PM EDT
[#3]
Depends on barrel length. I have a 24 inch 5R bull barrel. Was using 4064 until I tried varget. Haven't used anything else. But I have a 12 inch barrel AR10 308 and use 8208 XBR due to the fast burning powder. Was using 4064 with that too. Big different using 8208 XBR. What's your setup?
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Posted: 1/16/2017 7:09:21 PM EDT
[#4]
20 inch rifle length large frame AR.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 7:16:24 PM EDT
[#5]
I have always had great luck with Varget and see no reason to change.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 9:23:39 PM EDT
[#6]
Thats the fun thing in reloading. Trying different powders to find the optimum powder that uses the least amount of powder. Try both and see what you find out. Have a chronograph to test your loads with? If not, should be on your list of reload tools. I would have to use more 4064 to get the same velocity of varget that uses less powder. Good to have a backup powder to use in the event our primary powder is unavailable.
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Posted: 1/16/2017 9:46:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Varget.
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Posted: 1/17/2017 9:40:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Neither, i would and do only use ball powder because i don't want to fuck around measuring every charge.
With w748 i can throw directly into the case. This allows me to load precision ammo in my progressive press. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:54:36 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Neither, i would and do only use ball powder because i don't want to fuck around measuring every charge. With w748 i can throw directly into the case. This allows me to load precision ammo in my progressive press. Varget is a PITA no doubt but I don't like temperature sensitive powders all that much. I will tolerate it for plinking ammo but I just can't bring myself to use it in precision rifle reloads given the cost of the components to begin with. I don't go crazy with a Prometheus or anything like that but I am much more careful about being consistent with my precision rifle reloads. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 2:53:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jlficken:
Varget is a PITA no doubt but I don't like temperature sensitive powders all that much. I will tolerate it for plinking ammo but I just can't bring myself to use it in precision rifle reloads given the cost of the components to begin with. I don't go crazy with a Prometheus or anything like that but I am much more careful about being consistent with my precision rifle reloads. Luckily my group size doesn't fall apart with MV changes. W748 isn't too bad with my loads at 1/2fps per degree l, my w760 load is worse at 1.33fps per degree. W760 isn't that great from the measure but it gives me great velocity. To get accurate charges fromW760 I put the case on the scale, tare it, throw the charge into the case and weigh the charged case most of the time it will be within .05 grain but some throws could be +/.1 grain so i rethrow that one and repeat. It goes pretty quick that way. I can put the temp factors my ballistic solver and it does the rest. I just target shoot for fun so time saved throwing directly into the case is well worth dealing with the temp sensitivity. I still get single digit SDs and mid 20s ESs. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 3:52:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Varget is my choice of those two.
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USA
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Posted: 1/17/2017 8:39:25 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Neither, i would and do only use ball powder because i don't want to fuck around measuring every charge. With w748 i can throw directly into the case. This allows me to load precision ammo in my progressive press. Tried 2000mr yet? It is showing a lot of promise regarding velocity, SD, and groups, but I have had a chance to test it across temperature ranges. Drops like any other good ball powder. I think I got it for $16/lb at wideners. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 8:44:00 PM EDT
[#13]
Varget.
But nothing wrong with 4895. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:04:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Varget in the bolt gun
4895 in the M14. |
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:08:10 PM EDT
[#15]
there are so many other great powders out there besides Varget,
( So I can find some once in a while  )
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VA, USA
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:09:34 PM EDT
[#16]
Most accurate reloads I have ever shot were with H4895.
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:20:55 PM EDT
[#17]
IMR 8208 XBR
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:24:13 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt:
there are so many other great powders out there besides Varget, ( So I can find some once in a while )You don't have to worry about me buying it as I am set for life 
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Posted: 1/17/2017 10:59:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillyDBerger:
IMR 8208 XBR Good stuff for short barrel 308's. Not so good for long barrels. |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 8:10:36 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nihilsum:
Tried 2000mr yet? It is showing a lot of promise regarding velocity, SD, and groups, but I have had a chance to test it across temperature ranges. Drops like any other good ball powder. I think I got it for $16/lb at wideners. |
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Posted: 1/18/2017 11:09:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
I have about 50lbs of w748 on hand, i use it in everything. I haven't ventured into any of the newer powders. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By nihilsum:
Tried 2000mr yet? It is showing a lot of promise regarding velocity, SD, and groups, but I have had a chance to test it across temperature ranges. Drops like any other good ball powder. I think I got it for $16/lb at wideners. I am the same way with Varget. It works so I have stocked up over the years. No need to change what works in my opinion. IMR 4166 seems interesting but Varget is cheaper (never thought I would be able to say that Varget was cheap  ) and proven.
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GA, USA
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Posted: 1/18/2017 8:15:51 PM EDT
[#22]
Of the choices, Varget but I use IMR 4064 by the 8 lb. jug.
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USA
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Posted: 1/18/2017 9:49:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jlficken:
I am the same way with Varget. It works so I have stocked up over the years. No need to change what works in my opinion. IMR 4166 seems interesting but Varget is cheaper (never thought I would be able to say that Varget was cheap ) and proven.Have used 4064, 3031, and 2000mr in .308 but would like to try varget...seems like a more temp stable equivalent to 4064. It was not very available for a long time. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2017 2:04:47 AM EDT
[#24]
4064, then varget then xbr
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Posted: 1/19/2017 1:17:26 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillyDBerger:
IMR 8208 XBR |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 1/19/2017 3:04:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Of the 2 listed choices, I will give the nod to H4895. Especially if barrel length is going to under 26in.
Varget is not a bad 2nd choice though. SY |
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Posted: 1/19/2017 8:32:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: borderpatrol]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
I have about 50lbs of w748 on hand, i use it in everything. I haven't ventured into any of the newer powders. I used to use WW-748 (25.0 to 25.3 grains with 69 grain SMK's in .223) and liked it. Then I bought some more and it didn't work worth a crap. Accuracy went south. I also liked 43.0 grains in Lake City surplus 7.62x51mm brass and 168 grain SMK's. I shot some great scores using that load in a M1-A. Extruded powders do not need to be hand weighed to shoot very accurately. They are much more forgiving of slight variations in charge weight and tend to shoot accurately over a wider range of powder charges. I will probably never return to ball powders simply because I'm getting fantastic results throwing the extruded varieties. I have Harrell's powder measure for long range ammo. H322 and IMR-8208-XBR meter fine from a Dillon 550. For .308............ VihtaVuori N150 and 140 are great powders and work from a Dillon. Varget has always been a top pick for .308. IMR-4064 is very course but still shoots well when thrown. H4895 and IMR-4895 are top picks for a M1-A or M1 Garand. RE-15 has been the U.S. Armed Forces pick for M118 LR ammo. Norma 203-B is damn near identical to RE-15. You can't go wrong with any of these powders for .308. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 6:39:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol:
I used to use WW-748 (25.0 to 25.3 grains with 69 grain SMK's in .223) and liked it. Then I bought some more and it didn't work worth a crap. Accuracy went south. I also liked 43.0 grains in Lake City surplus 7.62x51mm brass and 168 grain SMK's. I shot some great scores using that load in a M1-A. Extruded powders do not need to be hand weighed to shoot very accurately. They are much more forgiving of slight variations in charge weight and tend to shoot accurately over a wider range of powder charges. I will probably never return to ball powders simply because I'm getting fantastic results throwing the extruded varieties. I have Harrell's powder measure for long range ammo. H322 and IMR-8208-XBR meter fine from a Dillon 550. For .308............ VihtaVuori N150 and 140 are great powders and work from a Dillon. Varget has always been a top pick for .308. IMR-4064 is very course but still shoots well when thrown. H4895 and IMR-4895 are top picks for a M1-A or M1 Garand. RE-15 has been the U.S. Armed Forces pick for M118 LR ammo. Norma 203-B is damn near identical to RE-15. You can't go wrong with any of these powders for .308. I am sure this will be met with laughter but I am becoming more and more convinced powder choice has less to do with small groups than a good development. I am sure there may be some powders that just may not work but when I can get a powder to work reasonably well(subjective I know) with everything I try it in, powder just doesn't seem so important. Maybe I am just in the correct range of case capacity, but I also have had great luck with AA2230 and even W760 in my heavy .308 and .223 loads. Most of my loads don't have any published load data, so I guess it isn't suppose to work but it does. I use it(w748) in .223 50, 55, 77, 90gr, .308 150, 155, 168, 175, 215,230gr and now 6.5Grendel 90, 130, 140gr which I am just now working up. Now my requirements may be different, tight groups are not as important as good SDs and ESs for my long range shooting. If I can get 1-1.125moa with 9fps SD I will be better off than if I get .75moa with a 15fps SD. Being able to throw directly into the case from my Hornady measure is a bonus. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 9:20:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
I am sure this will be met with laughter but I am becoming more and more convinced powder choice has less to do with small groups than a good development. I am sure there may be some powders that just may not work but when I can get a powder to work reasonably well(subjective I know) with everything I try it in, powder just doesn't seem so important. Maybe I am just in the correct range of case capacity, but I also have had great luck with AA2230 and even W760 in my heavy .308 and .223 loads. Most of my loads don't have any published load data, so I guess it isn't suppose to work but it does. I use it(w748) in .223 50, 55, 77, 90gr, .308 150, 155, 168, 175, 215,230gr and now 6.5Grendel 90, 130, 140gr which I am just now working up. Now my requirements may be different, tight groups are not as important as good SDs and ESs for my long range shooting. If I can get 1-1.125moa with 9fps SD I will be better off than if I get .75moa with a 15fps SD. Being able to throw directly into the case from my Hornady measure is a bonus. Ever try 8208XBR in your 308? Just curious. If I remember correctly, your barrel is 20 inches long (correct me if I am wrong). |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/20/2017 2:45:54 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bearcat24:
But I have a 12 inch barrel AR10 308 and use 8208 XBR due to the fast burning powder. Care to share any load details for your 12" 308 using 8208 XBR? I'm within a month or two of getting my Form 1 approved for a 12.5" LR-308 and haven't found solid advice for .308 SBR load development. Preferred bullet weight, type? Chronographed velocity? I have an M1A, 16" Bolt Gun, 17.5" BAR Shorttrac, and soon a 12.5" LR-308 so this entire thread interests me. |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 3:25:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: drfroglegs]
[#31]
Any of the hodgdon extreme powders.
Varget is the best IMHO. It has a 8fps variance over 125F swing, that's crazy consistent. I have used imr4064 with excellent results, but it is far more temperature sensitive.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 3:37:46 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MitchAlsup:
Varget in the bolt gun 4895 in the M14. This |
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Posted: 1/20/2017 6:13:43 PM EDT
[#33]
Well let me throw a monkey wrench into the discussion. My first choice would be Varget but I'm a cheap bastard and have a ton of IMR 4064 around for my various things that are chambered in 30-06. I also use H4895 in several platforms. Recently, while working up loads for my favorite neighborhood Bambi Slayer, I stumbled onto another 100 fps over my H4895 and IMR4064 loads for 308 using CFE 223 with no pressure signs. This in a custom Remington 700 behind a 165 grain Barnes TSX. YMMV.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/20/2017 7:48:12 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
I am sure this will be met with laughter but I am becoming more and more convinced powder choice has less to do with small groups than a good development. I completely agree. A skilled reloader can take any set of cases, any appropriate powder, any appropriate primer, and any powder and end up with a dandy load. It may not be the smallest shooting load in the world, but it will outshoot any factory ammo in the gun the load was tuned for. In PopNFresh's case, 748 is appropriate for all of the reloading he does. A lot of load development goes astray when the reloader misinterprets what the targets are trying to tell him/her. Then instead of leading towards a solution, the reloader is lead away and decides that this particular component "ain't gonna make it" where the component would be just fine if the misreading did not happen. |
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Posted: 1/21/2017 2:44:12 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By drfroglegs:
Any of the hodgdon extreme powders. Varget is the best IMHO. It has a 8fps variance over 125F swing, that's crazy consistent. I have used imr4064 with excellent results, but it is far more temperature sensitive. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/322543/Screenshot-2016-10-18-18-50-12-129889.JPG 
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Posted: 1/21/2017 2:49:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bearcat24:
Ever try 8208XBR in your 308? Just curious. If I remember correctly, your barrel is 20 inches long (correct me if I am wrong). Both loads average between .5 and .75moa summer to winter and have single digit SDs and mid 20s ESs so I have no interest in trying something else. |
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Posted: 1/21/2017 3:14:47 PM EDT
[#37]
I've been using XBR in a 26" tube. Working good so far.
I still can't find Varget around here. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/22/2017 11:26:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: garred8787]
[#38]
8208 xbr fan here. getting sub 1/2 min groups with 168 amax's and 175 rdf's. 2630 with the 168's and 2515 with the 175's from a 18.5" .308. also my favorite with 77's in .223
EDIT: 1/31 finished my 175 workup, switched to 210m primers and was rewarded with a ES of 1 and SD of .8 and picked up 47 ft/sec with same charge no pressure signs. now doing 2577avg from my 18.5" |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 4:55:21 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
No I have not and yes it is 20", for my long 230gr load I now use W760 due to a big increase in MV from it but for the 230gr mag length load I use W748. Both loads average between .5 and .75moa summer to winter and have single digit SDs and mid 20s ESs so I have no interest in trying something else. Is that a factory 1/10 barrel? |
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Posted: 1/23/2017 6:29:11 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Effenpig:
Is that a factory 1/10 barrel? |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 10:26:06 PM EDT
[#41]
I wouldn't use XBR with a 168 or 175 bullet. I have seen too many posts about pressure spikes with temp changes with this combo only. I do use it for .223 though.
I would suggest looking at AR-Comp. it is a more temp stable version of 4064. so far I have only see around 10 fps change going from 92 to 40 degree ambient. |
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AZ, USA
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Posted: 1/31/2017 10:39:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: garred8787]
[#42]
oops already posted in this one..
EDIT: 1/31 finished my 175 workup, switched to 210m primers and was rewarded with a ES of 1 and SD of .8 and picked up 47 ft/sec with same charge no pressure signs. now doing 2577avg from my 18.5" |
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Posted: 1/31/2017 10:39:49 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BillyDBerger:
IMR 8208 XBR |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 11:24:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Twitchy]
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By nihilsum:
Tried 2000mr yet? It is showing a lot of promise regarding velocity, SD, and groups, but I have had a chance to test it across temperature ranges. Drops like any other good ball powder. I think I got it for $16/lb at wideners. Of the two powders OP has listed, it's a toss up. Whichever is available would work in my experience, although I've always gone back to Varget for velocity and group size. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 5:00:39 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ws-6:
I wouldn't use XBR with a 168 or 175 bullet. I have seen too many posts about pressure spikes with temp changes with this combo only. I do use it for .223 though. I would suggest looking at AR-Comp. it is a more temp stable version of 4064. so far I have only see around 10 fps change going from 92 to 40 degree ambient. It works well for 168's for me, absolutely no pressure at all. Using it in both .223 and .308 now I personally have set to see these pressure spikes people talk about. |
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Posted: 2/2/2017 7:54:14 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dirtymoe21:
It works well for 168's for me, absolutely no pressure at all. Using it in both .223 and .308 now I personally have set to see these pressure spikes people talk about. From what I have read on it, it only happens on heavy (168+) bullets in 308 and requires a large temp swing. I have never seen it in 223 and also have not seen people taking about it. It seems that loads that were developed in higher temps (say in the 80s). There is a chance that the load will be over pressure at low temps (under 32 degrees). Due to this a lot of ppl recommend that you work up 2 loads (high and low temp). |
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IN, USA
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Posted: 2/2/2017 9:45:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By supv26:
IMR 4064. Next would be Varget. Next Benchmark. They all are great powders IMR 4064 is easiest to get. This |
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Posted: 2/3/2017 3:39:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ws-6:
From what I have read on it, it only happens on heavy (168+) bullets in 308 and requires a large temp swing. I have never seen it in 223 and also have not seen people taking about it. It seems that loads that were developed in higher temps (say in the 80s). There is a chance that the load will be over pressure at low temps (under 32 degrees). Due to this a lot of ppl recommend that you work up 2 loads (high and low temp). Heavy doesn't start til 210gr. You sure you don't have that backwards? That seems like an odd characteristic. Usually it's a low temp load becoming overpressure in high temps. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/3/2017 6:52:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: towerofpower94]
[#49]
I've found 8208 to be fairly temp stable, but it is pesky in the pressure department when working up loads though in that everything is fine and then pressure signs start to develop quickly as you near what is eventually going to max for the combination of rifle and components you're using. Some powders show pressure early and gradually, but my experience with 8208 was that the line was much finer between a safe load and one showing real pressure signs.
Due to the temp stability and ease of metering, I'd stick with 8208 if I had but one powder to use. Works great in 77gr .223 loads as well. |
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USA
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Posted: 2/3/2017 8:59:47 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Twitchy:
I just did load testing with 2000MR yesterday. (3rd time trying it) I am not impressed with it at all for velocity or ES/SD. Not sure why, but I couldn't get it to work in 223 (80g) or 308 (175g). Of the two powders OP has listed, it's a toss up. Whichever is available would work in my experience, although I've always gone back to Varget for velocity and group size. Interesting. I have not done a great deal of testing with it yet in .308 but just loaded up some OCW groups with the 175gr SMK and 175gr TMK....holding off testing until the bolt action is back from the shop as the TMKs are too long for AR10 mag length as loaded. I did work up 50 or so with 168gr Prvi bulk bullets to published max load. Velocity was 2710 out of an 18" gas gun and 2815 out of a 24" bolt. ES and SD were lower than I have ever gotten with 3031 or 4064. For what it is worth, alliant's load data for the powder in 223 is conservative in a 556 chamber. Their .308 max loads seem to be right on. |
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