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CO, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2015 7:48:01 PM EDT
I'm looking at getting a Rem 700 SPS 223 rifle with a 1:9 twist barrel. How heavy of a bullet can I expect to stabilze properly shot from this twist?
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Posted: 1/27/2015 7:50:33 PM EDT
[#1]
62gr is probably the limit.
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TX, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2015 8:09:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Yep. I love the barnes tsx 70 grain. 1:9 wouldn't be in my personal vocabulary...but if you don't plan on that, Go for it
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MI, USA
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Posted: 1/27/2015 8:48:16 PM EDT
[#3]
Your rifle is guaranteed to shoot 69 grain and lighter bullets. Some 1/9 twist barrels can shoot Hornady 75 grain hpbt match bullets and sometimes even Sierra's and Nosler's 77 grain bullets. The 75/77 grain bullets are hit and miss with only 50% of 1/9 barrels being capable of stabilizing them. The only way you'll find out is to try them.
To guarantee that any rifle will shoot 75/77 grain bullets you need at least a 1/8 twist. |
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Posted: 1/27/2015 11:09:26 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol:
Your rifle is guaranteed to shoot 69 grain and lighter bullets. Some 1/9 twist barrels can shoot Hornady 75 grain hpbt match bullets and sometimes even Sierra's and Nosler's 77 grain bullets. The 75/77 grain bullets are hit and miss with only 50% of 1/9 barrels being capable of stabilizing them. The only way you'll find out is to try them. To guarantee that any rifle will shoot 75/77 grain bullets you need at least a 1/8 twist. What I was going to contribute, about word-for-word. |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 7:03:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: sleepercaprice1]
[#5]
My Savage 1/9 shoots Hornady 68's very well- MOA or under as a rule if I do my part. I haven't tried 75/77's as I assumed they were too heavy for a 9" twist. I'll have to try them out.
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Posted: 1/28/2015 7:28:24 AM EDT
[#6]
up to 69/70 should be okay. Some barrels are able to go a bit higher, but you won't know until you shoot them. the 69 Sierra match king is my 1/9 load of choice
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Posted: 1/28/2015 12:16:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Heavier may shoot well but not 100% stabilize and that will lower the BC some. But could still be better in the long run than a 100% stabile lighter bullet with a lower BC.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 1/28/2015 12:29:22 PM EDT
[#8]
My Savage "1:9" shoots 77s very well. Twist rates aren't always what they say. You'll have to test.
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Posted: 1/30/2015 12:12:58 AM EDT
[#9]
My Savages shoots the 69SMK very well, under 1 moa. It'll also shoot the Hornady 75gr to about 1 moa. 26" 1/9 barrel.
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AR, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 3:22:29 AM EDT
[#10]
Pick some up and see, I have a 1-10, and a 1-9 that both shoot Sierra 77gr. Matchkings just fine.
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Posted: 1/30/2015 6:43:51 AM EDT
[#11]
My SPS Tac .223 loves Hornady 75gr BTHP
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NH, USA
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Posted: 1/30/2015 11:41:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JayC]
[#12]
delete
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MS, USA
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Posted: 2/3/2015 11:35:41 PM EDT
[#13]
It's not weight that matters. It is the length of the bullet that is in contact with the rifling. Monolithic solid copper bullets like Barnes TSX are longer than the same weight lead core bullets. I can shoot 77 grain lead core bullets with good accuracy from my 1:9, but Barnes 70 grain TSX keyhole badly and spray like buckshot. 62 grain TSX shoot close to one MOA. They are about as long as the 77 grain SMKs.
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Posted: 2/7/2015 5:27:23 PM EDT
[#14]
I had a Stag 16" carbine that stabilized 75 grain Privi's out to 400 yards. Member 308Sako has shot 77's out of a 24" Colt 1/9 twist into teeny groups. I think you'll be fine.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2015 4:35:59 PM EDT
[#15]
sfno72,
You should be able to shoot our 70 grain VLD and 73 grain boat tail match bullet with the 1-9" twist rate with no issues also. Heaviest would be the 77 grain SIERRA MK. Take care, Phil Hoham Berger Bullet Tech |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 7:43:37 PM EDT
[#16]
Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. Twist does matter if you want to get the highest BC out of your bullet. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 9:43:03 PM EDT
[#17]
308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper
77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:14:38 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG: 308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:31:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Python00]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ch3no2: What I was going to contribute, about word-for-word. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ch3no2: Originally Posted By borderpatrol: Your rifle is guaranteed to shoot 69 grain and lighter bullets. Some 1/9 twist barrels can shoot Hornady 75 grain hpbt match bullets and sometimes even Sierra's and Nosler's 77 grain bullets. The 75/77 grain bullets are hit and miss with only 50% of 1/9 barrels being capable of stabilizing them. The only way you'll find out is to try them. To guarantee that any rifle will shoot 75/77 grain bullets you need at least a 1/8 twist. What I was going to contribute, about word-for-word. I still Favor 1:8, I can shoot any thing you can buy. Funny thing is I have had good results with 40gr Nosler Ballistic out of 1:7-1:12 |
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:38:26 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW:
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum Tread Lightly. |
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OH, USA
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Posted: 2/25/2015 10:40:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Python00]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG: Tread Lightly. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG: Originally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By glorifiedG: 308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum Tread Lightly. Plenty of .3moa guns out there, I just did some digging and 308sako has posted hand load results out of his 20 match upper that are in the .28 range Saying a 20" Colt 1/9 barrel can be misleading to some. Colt Hbar Elite CR 6724 |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 2/26/2015 1:05:09 AM EDT
[#22]
I believe it. Perhaps not repeatable consistently, but with no wind and a good barrel, it is probably not a fluke. 24" barrel and careful handloads optimized for the barrel help, as the higher velocity increases rpm, and that can stabilize at a slower twist rate.
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Posted: 2/26/2015 7:39:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: popnfresh]
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG:
308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. OP's talking 20" bbl(.223 700sps 1:9), lower mv 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.190 in a 1:8 twist(1.70SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.181 in a 1:9 twist(1.34SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.167 in a 1:10 twist(1.09SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.148 in a 1:12 twist(.775SG) |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 10:25:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. OP's talking 20" bbl(.223 700sps 1:9), lower mv 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.190 in a 1:8 twist(1.70SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.181 in a 1:9 twist(1.34SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.167 in a 1:10 twist(1.09SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.148 in a 1:12 twist(.775SG) Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. OP's talking 20" bbl(.223 700sps 1:9), lower mv 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.190 in a 1:8 twist(1.70SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.181 in a 1:9 twist(1.34SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.167 in a 1:10 twist(1.09SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.148 in a 1:12 twist(.775SG) I'd swear you look at every and any opportunity to disagree with me or prove me wrong. Did the bullets keyhole? Now you are splitting hairs on whats properly stable The Fucking bullets shot exactly where they intended to, how much more Stabil would be acceptable? |
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Posted: 2/26/2015 11:41:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HighpowerRifleBrony]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG: I'd swear you look at every and any opportunity to disagree with me or prove me wrong. Did the bullets keyhole? Now you are splitting hairs on whats properly stable The Fucking bullets shot exactly where they intended to, how much more Stabil would be acceptable? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG: Originally Posted By popnfresh: Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. OP's talking 20" bbl(.223 700sps 1:9), lower mv 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.190 in a 1:8 twist(1.70SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.181 in a 1:9 twist(1.34SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.167 in a 1:10 twist(1.09SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.148 in a 1:12 twist(.775SG) I'd swear you look at every and any opportunity to disagree with me or prove me wrong. Did the bullets keyhole? Now you are splitting hairs on whats properly stable The Fucking bullets shot exactly where they intended to, how much more Stabil would be acceptable? Popn's technically correct and you're practically correct. OP, I'd stick with 69gr SMK or barefooter's suggestions. |
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Posted: 2/27/2015 8:51:48 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG:
I'd swear you look at every and any opportunity to disagree with me or prove me wrong. Did the bullets keyhole? Now you are splitting hairs on whats properly stable The Fucking bullets shot exactly where they intended to, how much more Stabil would be acceptable? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By glorifiedG:
Originally Posted By popnfresh:
Originally Posted By glorifiedG:
308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. Just because it shoots good groups doesn't mean it is stabilized properly. OP's talking 20" bbl(.223 700sps 1:9), lower mv 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.190 in a 1:8 twist(1.70SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.181 in a 1:9 twist(1.34SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.167 in a 1:10 twist(1.09SG) 50°@sealevel 2700fps 77smk G7 BC =.148 in a 1:12 twist(.775SG) I'd swear you look at every and any opportunity to disagree with me or prove me wrong. Did the bullets keyhole? Now you are splitting hairs on whats properly stable The Fucking bullets shot exactly where they intended to, how much more Stabil would be acceptable? OP said "properly stabilized", this is a technical precision rifled forum. It is safe to assume an OP looking for a heavy bullet is doing so for higher ballistic coefficient. Too slow a twist will retard BC even if it still shoots small groups. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 12:45:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 308Sako]
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW: I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MRW: Originally Posted By glorifiedG: 308Sako shot this out of a 24" 1/9 Colt upper http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n121/IcatchEm/1206081234b.jpg 77 SMK' s, 400 yards, witnessed by myself and another, I'm saying the bullets were Stabilized. I call BS. I'd be surprised if a bolt action welded down to a concrete slab could shoot that group at 400 yards in a vacuum Did you notice the OP of this pic said that it was witnessed by two people. One is a firearms trainer at our local Metro. Hello get a life, it is was real, and is very possible with some skill and good equipment. My thoughts were edited to avoid the obvious rebuttal from ignorance. Here's another one from a different rifle you will also call BS...  In this case a 11.5" chrome lined BCM barrel with a 4X ACOG for sights.... distance 100 yards. Go figure another impossible dream? |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 5:09:08 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 308Sako: -snip- http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/MyBestEverwithSBRoranyAR.jpg In this case a 11.5" chrome lined BCM barrel with a 4X ACOG for sights.... distance 100 yards. Go figure another impossible dream? 5 shots? 10 shots? Does that rifle/ammo/shooter combo consistently put down ~1/4MOA groups? I'm not saying it can't, but it's unlikely. |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 4:09:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: 5 shots? 10 shots? Does that rifle/ammo/shooter combo consistently put down ~1/4MOA groups? I'm not saying it can't, but it's unlikely. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: Originally Posted By 308Sako: -snip- http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/MyBestEverwithSBRoranyAR.jpg In this case a 11.5" chrome lined BCM barrel with a 4X ACOG for sights.... distance 100 yards. Go figure another impossible dream? 5 shots? 10 shots? Does that rifle/ammo/shooter combo consistently put down ~1/4MOA groups? I'm not saying it can't, but it's unlikely. 5 shots, The rifle was a consistent .4 MOA barrel until the round count went above 3,000. I considered it to be a fortunate freak as it was the first chrome lined barrel that I worked with for accuracy. Two factors I think contributed to it's superb performance; the suppressor and a tuned load consisting of quality bullets and meticulous assembly of them. AR Comp and a 55 Nosler Ballistic Tip, LC brass and Tula small rifle magnum primers. My purpose in posting is not to brag, but rather to inform others of the possibility of achieving enhanced performance and in some cases debunking the myth's "of that can't be." Unlikely, yes I agree, impossible not at all. Additionally, the reticle in the ACOG TAO1NSN is a perfect match for that load at 100 yard increments, so the ability to transition over the effective ranges is rather quick. :)  |
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Posted: 3/4/2015 8:29:57 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 308Sako: -snip- My purpose in posting is not to brag, but rather to inform others of the possibility of achieving enhanced performance and in some cases debunking the myth's "of that can't be." Unlikely, yes I agree, impossible not at all. http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x160/308sako/Shortysuppressed002_zps602b8076.jpg  |
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Posted: 3/7/2015 1:19:44 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6:
62gr is probably the limit. 69 is fine |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/11/2015 2:48:57 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KILLERB6:
62gr is probably the limit. 
That is not the limit. 69 at the very least, and most will stabilize 75s. |
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MD, USA
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Posted: 3/12/2015 12:34:25 PM EDT
[#33]
I have shot 80 SMK and 80 Bergers out of a 24" 1/9 Winchester varmint rifle at 600 yds with good results. You can almost certainly shoot 77 SMKs.
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Posted: 3/13/2015 9:13:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dangerdan]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By daunted: I have shot 80 SMK and 80 Bergers out of a 24" 1/9 Winchester varmint rifle at 600 yds with good results. You can almost certainly shoot 77 SMKs. Not really. I've keyhole'd plenty of 77gr SMK's in a fairly new 20" 1/9 barrel at 200 yards. It depends. Play with an assortment of bullet lengths and see what works out the best. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 3/13/2015 9:22:18 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By borderpatrol:
Your rifle is guaranteed to shoot 69 grain and lighter bullets. Some 1/9 twist barrels can shoot Hornady 75 grain hpbt match bullets and sometimes even Sierra's and Nosler's 77 grain bullets. The 75/77 grain bullets are hit and miss with only 50% of 1/9 barrels being capable of stabilizing them. The only way you'll find out is to try them. To guarantee that any rifle will shoot 75/77 grain bullets you need at least a 1/8 twist. This- go mild on the speed of 80gr and it will stabilize. |
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2015 12:25:41 PM EDT
[#36]
I have a couple 1:9's, one is a R700 SPS Tactical @20" and the other is a R700 5r Tactical Cerakote (or something like that) with a fluted 24" barrel.
Anywho... I did a lot of testing on the SPS tactical and what I have found is 69's shoot best (favored load btw was 25.3g varget in lc brass loaded to AR length 2.255ish using an SMK) I gave 77's a try both Nosler and Sierra and while they did group better than moa at one hundred the rifle would shoot considerably tighter with 69's. I tried 75 hornadys (bthp's) and it wasn't any better than the 77's. 70 grain Berger VLD's where about the same... the 70 VLD really works well in my 5r but it has more of a true 223 chamber where the SPS tactical has a more of a 5.56 type lead, IIRC seating depth to the lands in the SPS is an extra .1 of an inch or so and seating 70's into or near the lands leaves very little barring surface in the case. Because of this I had to jump them and I never really did find a good seating depth in the SPS. Both of the Hornady A-maxes were tried and both were clearly unstable with shotgun patterns and/or side impacts at 100y. On a whim I tried 75 Berger VLD's seated into the lands and a stiff load of varget and found those to work well... I had a hard time believing it so I took them to 1000y to see if they would remain stable and they did. 5 were fired and I saw I was off the plate to the left on the first shot so I held a little more wind and fired four more... as you can see a slight change in wind velocity can have a dramatic effect at 1000 and carried one far to the right. (plate is 36" circle) 
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MI, USA
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Posted: 3/14/2015 12:26:59 PM EDT
[#37]
I also tried 80 grain SMK's and they were better than the A-max but still shooting 1.5-2 moa at 100y... but strangely Nosler's would group tighter. This was about the time I read an article from Bryan Litz on stability and I began sorting the Nosler's by length and used the shortest in the SPS (saving the rest for my faster twist bolt rifle), What I found was as long as I jammed the bullets into the lands .007" they would group just barely under moa using the shortest of the lot I had.
In the end I came full circle, back to the 69's, much of this was because of the high round count on the barrel and old loads that shot good were no longer remaining consistent. I decided to use the heavier bullets in barrels made for them and with the velocity advantage the 69's have over the 77's the BC difference was about a wash. inside 500 yards... With the SPS I did put a 77cc through the front shoulders of a coyote at 253y with good results, but the punch was lost on his brother that was 523y and he had a little jog left in him. You can expect to push 77's in the mid 2600's and 69's 200 fps from the 20" SPS tactical. FWIW, the 69's and 70 berger VLD shoot so well in the 24" 5r that I have not cared to try anything else. Also I tried the new 77 TMK in the SPS and while it works my results were less that desirable at 700y, grouping 5 into 12" |
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BHS
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Posted: 7/7/2017 12:41:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBoar]
[#38]
LOL nvm, didnt notice the age of the thread
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Posted: 7/28/2017 10:48:29 PM EDT
[#39]
All 1/9 twist barrels will stabilize 68/69 grain match bullets and anything lighter. I have a 26" barreled Winchester M70 with a 1/9 that shoots 75 grain Hornady hpbt match bullets very well.
Anything heavier than 69 grains may or may not shoot well. Some rifles just don't handle anything heavier and some will. I think longer barrels help, because the increased velocity doesn't need as fast a twist. I always buy 1/8 or 1/7 twist barrels because they will shoot any weight bullet well. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 7/31/2017 12:27:02 PM EDT
[#40]
On Berger's order form I used a couple years ago, it listed 1/9 twist as appropriate for their 73 gr bullet. That's the heaviest bullet I know, that showed manufacturer recommended usage for a 1/9 BBL. Nobody officially will list a 75+ gr bullet as 1/9 appropriate.
For whatever reason, Bergers website now says 1/8 twist is optimal for their 73. |
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Posted: 7/31/2017 11:39:03 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lazyengineer:
On Berger's order form I used a couple years ago, it listed 1/9 twist as appropriate for their 73 gr bullet. That's the heaviest bullet I know, that showed manufacturer recommended usage for a 1/9 BBL. Nobody officially will list a 75+ gr bullet as 1/9 appropriate. For whatever reason, Bergers website now says 1/8 twist is optimal for their 73. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/24/2018 8:01:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: WildBoar]
[#42]
ets nvm old thread, sorry
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Posted: 8/24/2018 9:24:17 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By WildBoar:
ets nvm old thread, sorry
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NV, USA
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Posted: 8/25/2018 8:40:27 AM EDT
[#44]
Barrels are like Zombies and threads... They never die!
FWIW. Colt 6724 loved 75 Amaxes |
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Posted: 8/25/2018 2:09:00 PM EDT
[#45]
20" 1/9 twist is guaranteed to shoot up to 69 grain Sierra Match King's. It may not handle anything heavier.
I have a 1/9 Winchester M70 with a 26" barrel that hammers with 75 grain Hornady's bthp match bullets (not their A-max). It's barrel measures slightly faster than 1/9, closer to 1/8.75. You can get away with a borderline twist if you can get more velocity from longer barrels. You need to try the heavier bullets to find out if they work for you or not. 1/9 barrels are around 50/50 whether they will shoot 75/77's or not. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 8/25/2018 2:30:33 PM EDT
[#46]
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