... Is training with a target 1/5th the side of a standard target the same as shooting to 1000?  Or does the lack of actual distance reduce the impact of environmental factors on the bullet making it less difficult and not a fair comparison?

Thanks.

Not a fair comparison.

It can't really be compared.  Wind has much more effect at range and any miscalculations are more severe at longer ranges.  

Shoot a 22lr at 200 and it will let you feel the wind a little more.

Otherwise you can still practice the more important stuff: getting into position and getting a shot off quickly, transitioning between targets, holding and dialing etc

Yes.  I will do a lot of this, I just wish that the terrain around here allowed for longer ranges.  Looks like Ill be in for a trip if I want to shoot any significant range.

Where in SC are you?

Bluffton

Same. Where is a 200 yard place?
Private property?

Yeah my house.  Also, I have heard of a 300 yard rage at a private club called dos lupes.  I don't think that is significant enough an improvement to warrant paying the fees and leaving my yard.

Haha.

Did you see the thread in the HTF for the hopes of a 1k range?

The one in Beaufort?  Yeah I saw it, it will probably be years before that is completed, if ever.

Yeah that's the one.
Hope it does happen

Not even close!

Eh, If you can work to consistanly make small groups(sub moa) at 200 you can at least get the mechanics down on your end. Your wind skills will just be lacking is all. But using a scaled target is not really going to make a difference.

I was maxed at 200 for about 1500 rounds. I was making 30% hits on a 1.3moa plate on my second attempt at 1000yards which is very good for a 20" .308. No help, no classes, no training, no spotter. Just a lot of reading and quality practice at 100 and 200 yards.



By the way learning to read wind doesn't require a shooting range or rifle.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

As Bryan Litz clearly identifies in his writings, there are two primary aspects of Precision Long Range Shooting. They include Precision & Accuracy.



Precision in the simplest of terms is the ability to fire a very small group. This is the key aspect that shooters need to focus on first, and it can be done at any distance, as long as the environment (primarily wind) is not influencing the outcome. Obviously it is best to start at a close range, and then work out. The further you go, the more the results will show flaws. You can have some very impressive results at 50-100 yards, that will not look so great at 200 yards. It is important to remember that the "system results" are a composite of "individual components" (rifle, ammo, optics, shooter) and each one needs to analyzed individually. All of my students start at 100 yards, and I work with them until they are shooting 1 MOA or better. This allows me to confirm that all of the individual components are 100% before moving on. They then move onto 200 yards (I am confirming that the wind will not have any impact) and they must maintain the same 1 MOA or better results. At this distance, I am primarily evaluating the shooter's skill set, given that all of the other components were confirmed to be 100% at 100 yards (I will confirm the optics are 100% through a number of tests). Bottom line is, if the shooter can not consistently perform at this distance, then there is no point to move out to any further distance. I will occasionally move this out to 300 yards, but it will only work if you can 100% guarantee that the environment is not having any impact, which is rare that the wind is not blowing. It never ceases to amaze me the number of "experienced students" that I get who have never done any Precision Practice at 200 yards, and when I check them, it is very apparent that they have a number of issues with their skill set. Having only shot groups at 100 yards, those flaws were never made that evident.

Accuracy in the simplest of terms is the ability to take that very small group and center it perfectly on the intended target. Given that the Precision aspect is 100%, this primarily comes down to sight/target alignment and correcting for environmental impacts. These are the things that need to be practiced at distance, as it is very difficult to really work on and evaluate them at close range. In regards to sight/target alignment, this is probably one of the areas that is missed or neglected the most. There is a very important saying, "you must be able to aim small in order to hit small". The easiest way that I can usually show this to the students is to have them fire some groups at 300-400 yards (no wind) on their lowest magnification power and then have them fire some groups on their highest power. The groups on the highest power will always be best, because it allows them to have a more precise and consistent aiming point. This is also where it will be apparent that the finer the aiming point in the optic and on the target, the more Accurate the groups will be. If I hear "I am getting too much movement in the reticle on max power", then I know that there is a flaw in the shooting fundamentals, because that is a very clear indicator of an unstable shooting position or uncontrolled breathing. The old saying, "dial down until you take out the wobble", only goes to mask or cover up a positional stability and aiming flaws. Finally, the students must work through the process of dealing with the environmental impacts, primarily wind being the major one. It is important to remember, if you have not done all of the work to get to this point, then it is very difficult if not impossible to evaluate results, because without knowing that the shot was 100%, it is impossible to say if a miss was a result of shooting fundamentals or the wind. I am constantly seeing shooters blaming misses on wind, when it was very evident that the miss was actually them.

Crawl, Walk, Run!
Crawl - confirm that all individual components (rifle, ammo, optics, shooter) are 100% at 100 yards.
Walk - confirm that the shooter's skill set is 100% at 200-300 yards.
Run - confirm that the shooter can consistently place the sights/optics on the target, and correct for the environmental impacts, at ranges beyond 300 yards.

Sorry, probably not the exact answer for this exact question, but hopefully it will tie in and make sense.

Best of Luck,
M Richardson

It doesn't! Are you going to spill the beans and explain how you can do it?

With everything out there as far as books and video's on the subject I don't think 1000 yards is near as big a deal as it once was.  Add in laser range finders, ballistic calculators, and kestrels then it really isn't that difficult.  I had never shot beyond 100 yards until this year, but none the less the 2nd time I tried 1000 yards I made a first round hit with an 18" barreled ar15 chambered in 223.  Of course by that point I had confirmed a lot of things at medium ranges prior to trying 1000 yards.  

I guess you can read wind without a range or a gun I find myself doing that a lot, but you can't really confirm you are correct without sending a round down range and seeing where it impacted.

A Kestrel+ weather vane mount, a spotting scope, trees, weeds combined with creativity and observation will teach a ton about determining wind speed and direction.

It can be as simple as carrying your Kestrel with you all the time to get a basic idea of the wind feels like and what trees, weed, etc. look like at what speed at your location. Or more complex, have a buddy holding the Kestrel in the wind at a distance while you observe his surroundings(veg.,debris,mirage) through a spotting scope. You try to determine the wind he can confirm or deny via cell phone. Or more complex yet if you are a loner. Mount the Kestrel in the weather vane, turn on data logging, syncronize times with cam corder, mount camcorder to spotting scope viewing Kestrel location, view Kestrel location through scope, call out wind predictions to camcorder. After compare call out with Kestrel Log.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Work on your positional shooting also, will be a big help. While you don't have the long range wind reading and application, all else is the same.

Reduced target size, plus a .22 trainer helps. Once you get decent with that, try it out with subs.

It's a decent comparison, and it's great practice for reading wind, and seeing what wind can do to a bullet. Still though, nothing like getting out there with your rifle of choice.

I'll second a nice .22 to practice....


22 at 200-300yds is loads of fun and is great practice.

I have had it suggested that subsonic 22 rounds are a good way to learn wind at shorter ranges, any thoughts on this idea?  It would see the slower moving small round would experience more change due to wind.