OK, so I'm sitting there on the bus, going home from work. I'm thinking about backpacking in some of the primitive areas here in the Pacific NW, and a situation pops into my head (see what happens when I have time on my hands?)...

Say I'm in a primitive area up here that is known to have bears. (First assumption)
Also assume that I'm carrying my 9mm S&W 59 pistol, which I usually do backpacking if I don't have my SKS with me. The 9mm usually has FMJ bullets loaded.

Let's also assume that I'm not paying attention, not making noise, etc...and I suddenly come upon a bear. Since it's been surprised, it charges towards me from about 75-80 ft away. Yes, I understand that bears don't always charge/attack when they've been surprised, but bear with me (intentional pun).

Now, I don't really care if it's a brown bear, a black bear, or a grizzly bear we're talking about; just the fact that a bear is charging me.

Even though I'm shaken, I draw my pistol & begin firing by the time the bear is, say, 50 ft away.

I'm thinking that bears charge running on all fours, like a dog, rather than upright on their hind legs; at least that's what I've seen videos of. So the bear's head is probably 2-3 ft off the ground while he's charging. The bear's head is probably about a 10-12" roughly circular target, bouncing up & down some.

I can easily hit a 10" target at 50 ft, even while it's moving...but could I do that in a life-threatening situation?...I dunno.
But let's say I get off 4 rounds that are roughly in a 12" circle before the bear gets "too close".

And let's say that 2 of these rounds miss anything vital, maybe just hitting shoulder muscle, or clipping an ear, or grazing the neck, whatever...

But one of the rounds hits the bear square in the forehead (pure luck, I'm sure!)...could it penetrate his skull? I know a 9mm isn't known for it's expansion, but it does have good penetration...could it get thru a bear's skull?

If it did, the bullet tearing thru the brain should kill the bear almost instantly, correct? Now all I have to worry about is the bear's momentum, right? (Yeah, that's ALL!)
That's question number 1.

Let's say that I didn't hit the bear on the forehead with round #3, but that I did hit the shoulder joint with round #4...coming from the front, there's no way it's going to get to a vital organ, but would it disable/slow down the bear enough for me to get away? Could it break the joint? That's question #2.

OK, now I'm ready for all the bear experts, gun experts, big game hunters, etc... to tell me how far off I am.

I am assuming you are talking about black bears, if so.  Then you really need to read up on their behavior.  Most black bears are fearful of people, I go to Canada every year and have come across bears all the time, which I am thrilled to see! What ever you do DONT see a bear and start blasting away,if you kill one without a serious threat you could be in serious trouble.  Most black bear will run away at a "hey bear", clap of hands, etc.  Now if you were to be charged by one don't run, depending on distance fire a warning shot, if not them hold steady and hope to hit something vital.

There have been an extemely few fataly black bear attacks in the US.  Be more worried about two legged predators, which the 9mm will work wonders on. (dont fire a warning shot on them!)

Thanks, but this is a THOUGHT EXPERIMENT; I have no intention of going out looking for an excuse to shoot bears...sheesh...

Now, can you answer my questions?

Your biggest problem will be target composition and velocity.

Personally, I think that a 9mm is a great personal protection round, not my 1st choice, but good enough.  Anyway, a bear, being a wild animal is composed of some incredibly dense tissue called muscle and some very strong and thick bones.  A bear also packs quite a bit of fat as well!!!  You need to think about stopping power, not that you have a prayer of actually "stopping" the bear, but you mentioned lucky shots.  By that I will assume you mean something that actually hurts the bear and makes him go elsewhere.

Now, gunshots may attract attention of other hikers or, better yet, a Park Ranger who may come to your assistance, so long as you get yourself up a tree real quick.  

If you want to go out like Tom Hanks in Saving Private Ryan, shooting a .45 at a Tiger, be my guest.  I'll give you big ups for the balls to stand your ground and shoot a 9mm at a charging bear!  

The proper way to defend yourself against a charging bear with a 9mm, is to shoot the person next to you in the leg, then RUN !

A 1911 with a .460 Roland kit, anything less might just piss him off and you are his next meal.  I learned this lesson Salmon fishing in Alaska.

Several people (in another forum where I've asked this) have mentioned that they think that, even given an accurate shot to the head, that the 9mm would not penetrate the bear's skull.

So, if we took a bear that had just been killed by a body shot, removed the head, placed it on a platform of some kind, stepped off about 50 ft, and fired a 9mm FMJ into it (let's assume the above-mentioned "the coolest, calmest-under-stress, most accurate handgunner that ever lived" is actually doing the shooting, so no one questions the accuracy of the shot, OK?), that the round would not penetrate into the brain cavity? That is amazing to me!

To those of you who have hunted/shot bears, just how thick is that bone?

Bears skulls are pretty thick. Especially the brow.
Cousin has shot a bear head on and hand the round ricochet off with a 30/06.
Be more affraid of young black bears than griz.
Would jump up to a harder hitting round.

Sounds like an interesting story...care to share it?

Salmon fishing, bears were everywhere. BIG ass bears.  Grizzley's.  Above us below us, damn everywhere and we were already in the river.

My partner and one other had one thing going.  We all had .460 Roland kits with 10 rd mags and 2 spare mags.  We just kept fishing as we did not want to shoot unless there was no other recourse.  We got lucky and a big mess of fish.  Had it smoked and it made many a fine meal.

This will be year 5.  As long as there are no momma bears with cubs around we go in the water.  If one shows up we go the other way post haste.

The males seem to pay us no mind.  Its kinda freaky till ya get used to it.  It a massive game of situational awareness X 10.  But I still go back.

I love the bears.  Dont ask where.

I doubt a 9mm would penetrate the skull of a bear.  Your best hope with a 9 would be hitting the shoulder like you mentioned, but even that is a long shot.  If you plan on hiking in bear country I would suggest you step up to a bigger round, .44mag at least, preferably a .460 or .500 Smith.  

1st season of lost the guy shot a polar bear with a 9mm or .40S&W.  Never laughed so hard in my life.

I was hiking around Mt Rainer and saw a big Grizzly years ago.   It moved off the trail, but I was scared it was going to circle around us and we turned back.     A 9mm against a Grizzly would be an epic fail.    

The minimum I would carry would be a 12 Gauge auto with an extension tube and Brennekes or Dixie terminator slugs.  

Here is an older article by the forest service, still an interesting read. BTW no 9mm on it.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

Wow, a grizzly near Rainier! Hadn't heard of that before...

That article is interesting; I liked their choice of testing/penetration medium.

I would love to see some info on the thickness of a bear skull bone; I tried to google for more info, and found some skull size measurements, but didn't get any thickness info.

Well it's pretty far south but the ranger told us there were other reports of one in the area and it had all the characteristics like the hump.  I sure wasn't going too get close. LOL    This was in the 70's.

http://www.pacificbio.org/ESIN/Mammals/GrizzlyBear/bear-grizzlypg.html

As mentioned above, Black bears are fearful of people. However, I'm sure a headshot with 9mm fmj would penetrate.

Let us assume for a second that the skull is 2 inches thick and the hide + muscle is 1 inch thick.

9mm can shoot through 3 to 4 mm of steel.  

I think unloading the mag on the bear will be in your favor.  Just don't be within 15 feet of their claws when you start shooting.

The Bear's skull is sloped in the front, so a lot of times bullets are deflected off the skull into the skin.   A lot of people say that if possible you should try to aim at center mass, but many times it's not possible.   A charging Brownie isn't going to be stopped with a 9mm, and I doubt you would get the time to empty the whole mag.  

Interesting thread:

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=24560

See This : Bear Skull Anatomy

The 9mm would fail I believe. I have seen bear skulls in person, and I have friends that bagged large black bears with crossbows, shot behind the shoulder to the vitals.The skull has the crazy double wedge on the top shaped perfectly for deflecting bullets. A head shot with a 9mm would end badly for you. You'd be better off getting under the damn thing end press the muzzle to the neck, or vitals area and empty your pistol as it eats you.

I'd feel safer with a good solid long sharp spear than a 9mm against a bear.

Given all the right circumstances, a 9mm would in fact penetrate the skull.  Shoulder shot would be a bad decision.  IF the 9mm was all I had, of course I'm gonna try it in the scenario you proposed.  
If you got the lucky shot, it could save your life.  I choose lucky shot over running and getting overtaken by a bear any day.  Of course you'd be better off with a better weapon, but if that's all you had, you'd be wise to be prepared to use it.  Why discount it and give up instead?

bump fire an xdm 9mm at the bear. 20 rounds of 9 mil is a lot of energy.
But to be more realistic you need more power. 44 mag.

bear starting at 70 to 80 feet- your lunch. You wont have time to draw your gun.

9mm vs a bear?  Not a chance.  

I just bought a gun for this very reason - Marlin 1895 Guide Gun .45-70.  I spoke to tons of people who hunt those areas year after year and they wont even trust a .308 or .30-06 against a large bear.

Wearing a bell and using pepper spray are the only thing that work.

in the woods I carry a grock loaded with fmj hirtenberg smg ammo.

Oughta penetrate.  I only fart around in black bear country though.

This,

you had better have a quick release holster and very calm quick reflexes.

At 75 feet you have maybe 3, if your lucky, 4 seconds.

Here's a pic of a man shot in the forehead with a 9mm (MP5) at the end of a hostage standoff.

Granted, this caveman has a thick dome, but not bear thick.



ETA: Page 2 is mine.

your typical black bear skull at its thickest point is less than 1/4 inch thick. There is actually a point on the top of the skull, well back from the eyes, that when the skull is dried you can actually see light throught it. The thickness is not what stops the bullet. When a bear is looking at you the skull  angles away at a 20 or 30 degree angle.  Now take that same 3/8" steel plate that a 308 will blow holes through all day and lay it down at that angle and see what happens.

Old Alaskan proverb on this subject: Save the last one for yourself. That way it wont hurt as bad when the bear eats on you.

I forget were i heard this, along the same topic

guy goes in to a gun shop, wants to buy a handgun for protection from bears

old timer tells the gun buyer>I don't know about a handgun,but if you find one,make sure you take off the sights and the hammer.

gun buyer said why?

old timer>that way it won't hurt as bad when the bear takes the gun away from you and shoves it up your ass

always thought that was funny

Bulldog

I don't know that I would trust a 9mm to defend against a bear Black, Brown, and surely not a Grizz.  When I am hiking I carry my 10mm with 200gr HornadyXTP and 200gr cast bullets.  The cast bullet will penetrate much deeper and might actually hit the vitals.  I would suggest getting a larger caliber handgun for hiking.  357 mag with 158gr or larger.  You can pick up a used revolver in 357 for pretty cheap.  44 might even be better but it's much heaiver and I know that when hiking weight is always an issue.  That's why I don't carry my .45 colt as much as I used to.

An angry\ scared\ cornered bear is serious business. We took one in north PA, everyone on the mountain hit it, when he finally went down, he was on another valley from where he started with 19 heavy caliber rifle rounds in him (counted up by the guy who butchered the meat) ,6 or  7 in the boiler room as far as we could tell. Beautiful black bear, weighed in around 350 or so. Oc pepper,  and if that doesn't send him packing 10mm hardball to the face might do it. Best defense is like the pic of the sign, make noise so they know you're around, and usually they'll leave quietly.

here's a brief story.
have a friend who is CHP
came across a black bear that was injured, hit by a car
unloaded his .40 sidearm into it to put it down
i cant remember the exact number of shots it took
but it was more than 10.

luckily black bears tend to run the other way
'cause they climb trees better than we can
and pepper spray doesn't work as well on them as it does grizzlies.  

You shoot a bear with a 9mm and you will do nothing but piss him off and if he knows where you are...you are done. Nuff said

I was in a long island ny gunstore and this lady, (old lady in her 70's) asked the guy for a one shot .shotgun thats small, he was showering her .410, which was right for once... She was so happy, He asked if she needed HD ammo, she told him no just some ammo to scare the bears away... He looked at her and went nuts... She said well I dont want to kill it I just want to keep it out of my backyard....

X-section of a bear skull

IMHO a 9mm would only piss off any bear. I would have a .357 Magnum (only because I own one) or a .44 magnum (which I don't own yet).

Better yet would be a 12 gauge with slugs. Or the afore-mentioned 45-70 guide gun.

Last choice: a partner in worse aerobic shape than myself.

ETA I am NOT saying a 9mm wouldn't kill the bear. I AM saying that it wouldn't kill it fast enough to save my ass from being eaten.

There was a guy back around 2002 that shot a brown bear sow on the Kenai with a 9mm.  His fishing partner had a 12 ga shotgun and when the bear charged he dropped the shotgun in the river and left the guy to fend for himself.

I had a book mark for the story, but it doesn't seem to work anymore.

Not saying I'd recommend a 9MM for bear protection, but it has worked in at least one case.

I was going to mention that 9mm don't penetrate human skulls 100% of the time......then I saw the pic of the guy with a 9mm wound on his forehead. lol Point made I think.
The problem here as well as with a lot of people as they think the 9mm can hummm through anything. It is "known" for over penetration, so it must be a good stopper.
The fact is most 9mm ammo is made with 115grain bullets. It doesn't really matter if they are composed of Kryptonite or magic skull killing diamond bullets lol It will never have more than
115 grains of mass to push. You can speed it up, and that works to an extent......but even with a rifle 9mm, you can't load them fast enough to match the energy of a .44spl let alone a .44mag.
That is due to the 240grain bullet................ever wonder why a large percentage of SWAT wear .45acps? Sure they could use a 9mm and carry 3 times the ammo, but if you shoot once wiht a 45acp, you get 100% more lead/copper/steel/kryptonite down range than one shot of 9mm....................yes 230 is twice 115.

On a side note.............lol...................your avg reaction time for just milling around will be about 1.5secs.....before your hand even moves to the holster......a man can cover 30feet in that time.  
We had a knife instructor go our 30yards––––––––––––––––-90FEET! and let us use simunition guns in a duty rig............We were allowed to draw on his movement, and we allready knew he had a knife and we were going to shoot him.(just to get the thought process out of the way) He was able to clear 90FEET and put the blade on skin before a round was fired! Some people did get shots off, but none even came close to hitting anything.  Keep in mind, these were trained shooters that just came off a full week at the range shooting over 1350 rounds! NOW, I am no bear expert, once again, but bet Mr. Bear can travel faster than Mr. Knife instructor! Plus, Mr. Bear will not give you time to let you know he is going to charge and let you wrap your mind around it first. lol                  A good example, next time you are in a building that has the square floor tiles, most will be one square foot. Move out to a wall, then have some one count two seconds and see how many squares you can cross when the two is called.............big steps, swift and not even running, I can cover over 24 with four steps!
Just my .02