Afternoon fellas,

I shot a good sized doe last night at the lease, ranged it to 143 yards. Neck shot and she went right down, as usual... However, the thing that bothered me is that this one took over an hour to die. I eventually couldn't watch her suffer anymore and ended up slitting her throat to finish her off. (There's also a funny story about a spike coming out and trying to mount her with a broken neck, but I digress...) I've been hunting for years, so I don't want to get the debate started back up of 'shot placement', 'it's part of hunting', 'don't shoot unless you're sure', 'ARs aren't for deer hunting', etc...

I typically like to neck shoot them, it just seems like the most humane way to harvest. Granddad used to tell me, if I couldn't hit them in the neck, I didn't deserve the deer anyway.

All that said, I'd like some advice on building the 'ideal Deer-hunting AR". Relatively lightweight because I do like to walk the woods and stalk when I'm alone on the lease, ranges between 20-500 yds., and compact enough to hunt out of a small blind/stand. Ideally for me, it would be an upper that I can run on my sw mp15 lower, and then eventually build a new lower as $$$ permits. I really don't know enough about all these 'newer' calibers available to make an educated decision on choice, so if there are any comparative tools for these please let me know. EX., .458 socom vs 45-70, etc...  

There are still a lot of online deals out there so I'd like to possibly pick up some parts today/this week and start the upper build. At this point, I'll be bow hunting until I pick up a new rifle to use.

Thanks in advance

I assume this your current deer rifle is 5.56/.223?

Apologies. Yes, it's a 5.56/223.  Shot the one last night with a 62 gr Federal Fusion

How much you looking to spend? From what I've read lighter weight cost $$$.

Just my complete 16" upper right now is about $400. It's not a fancy build or real light  but it works great and I walk around the woods all day with out issues, I also use a sling to help with the weight. I also use a red dot since most of my shots are under 100yds

Aero precision has great products
Faxon (have nice light barrels)
Ballistic advantage

Thanks drok

I think the AR platform in general is going to be more lightweight than the traditional bolt action counterpart, so buying lightweight AR components would be great, but like you said more costly. I'll probably go more budget than anything at this point.

Maybe an upper in 6.8spc ?

Probably also depends on your local laws.  Since you are hunting with .223 already, it sounds like just about all high powered rifle cartridges are allowed.

I hear a lot of good things about the 458 socom and the 450 bushmaster.   Something in 6.8SPC or 6.5Grendell would also be really good.

I'm using 300BLK because of some weird laws in Indiana, and have to use it in pistol form.  It is an effective round, but is probably a 200yd max range cartridge.  

If you are looking for convenience in not having to completely retool for a new caliber, you could go the 300BLK route with just a barrel swap, but I would say you can do a little better if there are no caliber restrictions.

AR10, heart lung, stop worrying......that's it end of story, best caliber for any Realistic hunting range, plenty of Ammo and build options.

An hour and a half?   Never had 1 take that long with a boiler room bow shot.

Killed 2 this year with 308, the doe died where she stood, the buck made it about 30 yards but he was already spooked and ready to run.


Sure you can kill deer with a .223, but why?  I prefer a little more umph, and if you place your shot as well for the heart/lungs as you need to for a neck shot you lose no meat sooooo.   AR10

Assuming your not changing in the middle of this season you have a year to build.  The up to 500 yards kinda rules out most of the Ar15 compatiable cartridges, I'm sure the shot could be made but I would worry about energy left at 500 yards on most, the bigger ones like the 458' what's the drop on them at 300 yards, much less 500.  You need a 308, you just don't know it yet .  If I was u I would build a nice 308, you got almost a year.

Do you fellas have any idea how the calibers like 6.8 spc, 6.5 Grendel, and 300blk compare to other 'traditional hunting' calibers, like say  .270, 30-06, etc?

I have heard, not confirmed that the 6.8 is about 80% of a 308, but I have not checked the specs on it myself.

I use a .300 Blackout and 6.5 Grendel for deer hunting. Both do the job but if I am field hunting for ranges over 200 yds I take the Grendel. I have had great luck with both. Around eight deer for each caliber. Anyways in .300 Blackout I use the Barnes VorTX 110 gr TAC-TX ammo and the Grendel gets Hornady 123 gr SST's.

I have never been a fan of neck shots. I have neck shot maybe 5 deer in 20 years of deer hunting and have only approached one that was dead. I'm sure others have different opinions and results but I wanted to post mine.

As far as calibers go in a rough breakdown the 6.8 SPC. 6.5 Grendel and the .300 blackout are all perfectly fine. If you do plan shooting over 200 yds or so I would omit the .300 Blackout.

I would just use what you have now. I have a bunch of different AR's ranging from lightweight hunting rigs to heavy precision rifles and I still think my Browning A-bolt is lighter than any of them. Maybe get a decent light bolt gun in 243. 243 is one of my favorite deer hunting rounds.

Every deer I have double lunged with 223 has fallen dead within 20-30yds.

Up to 500y, I'd go AR-10.  Either .308 or 6.5 Creedmore. 400ish, 6.8 SPC or 6.5 Grendel would work fine with warm or hot loading.

Thanks again for all the great info fellas

What are the differences in the 6.5 and 6.8 offerings? Is one flatter, hotter? I've been doing a little reading and looks like the 6.5 may offer some extra velocity at distance?

Personally, as soon as I reach an animal that I've shot, if it isn't dead already, I just give it a "finishing shot" right then and there.  No reason to prolong things and wait, and no reason to make the deer feel its throat get slit.

But, your question:  What kind of AR for hunting?  There are lots of options, .300 BO, 6.5, 6.8, the big bores (.458 or .50), but unless you've got a compelling reason to go with those, an AR10 is easy and (comparatively) inexpensive.   PSA has cyber monday stuff going on, at least some of their AR10 stuff is on sale.  Might want to take a look.

My daughter shot one with a 62 gr Fusion on Friday afternoon...ran 20 yards and was dead as a doornail.  The thing that bothered me was that there was absolutely NO external blood loss.  Had it not been a clean kill, tracking it would have been a nightmare.  I shot an 8 point on Wednesday with a 150 grain Barnes TTSX .308...heart lung shot at 125 yards...heart was toast and tracking it would have been easy had it run more than 10 yards.  I will try some Barnes TTSX in my AR next time with my daughter and see if that makes a difference.

6.8 SPC II has the same ballistic coefficient as a 270. it is an excellent deer cartridge.

I recently had the same experience with the Fusion. I typically use MK262 and it leaves more blood though I never have had to do a track job with 223. I've done more tracking with 308 than anything.

6.8spc is what you seek.

Saturday I shot a doe with a 62gr tsx from my AR-15. Distance was a little over 200 yards according to the rangefinder. She ran 40 yards and even leaked blood. All 4 deer I have shot with a 223 have left trails.

Sunday I shot a small 10 pt buck with my 308 and a 165gr hot-cor at 178 yards. Instant blood trail and he went 32 yards before dying.

Both of these were shot in the slats. Lungs got a hole through them.

Why would you let that deer struggle for over an hour? 10 seconds max and it gets another round for a finisher. This is a good example of neck shots failing. Old wives tale of instant death.

6.8 leaves nice holes and blood trails and is a definite step up. I have taken a buck and doe with 85gr e-tips.

Upgrade cartridges if you must, but put the bullet through the lungs/heart.

Fair question

It broke her neck instantly obviously, but when she fell, she twisted and her head was facing directly away from me. From my vantage in the stand, another shot would have gone in the guts, and it didn't seem like that would be doing her any favors either. As far as her timeline, the last I saw her twitch and kick a leg was about 30 minutes after I shot her. I thought she was done for, and there was still day light, so I was waiting on another one to come by (been 2 years since I put one in the freezer). Right before dark, about an hour after I shot her, she kicked her legs big time again and started thrashing. I thought she'd been gone for a while, but at that point I got down and finished her off. Wasn't sure the most human way to finish, next time it'll be a .22 to the head. Watching that deer was my worst moment as a hunter.

The more I look around, I'm leaning towards that

6.5 Grendel works for me, he made it 15 steps.

I'd go a 6.5 or 6.8. Next time don't wait so long to put a stopper in her.

The 5.56/.223 is quite capable as a deer rifle.  But it isn't "ideal".  Your case is a perfect example.  The 5.56, with any bullet, really isn't a great big game cartridge.  Bullets like the various bondeds and Barnes help, but any technology that 'boosts' the 5.56 also give a similar 'boost' to a better cartridge.

So what are "ideal" deer cartridges?  With the exception of extreme ranges (as in Coues deer), I'd list .260 Rem, 7mm-08, .308, 338 Federal and 358 Win as "ideal" .  Each have a decent enough trajectory that they are not limited in any fashion like 30-30 could be at 250 yards.  Each has power enough that they can effectively bull through thick bones and still get the job done.  And each has enough bullet mass to plow through less than idea wound paths.

Bigger .30-06 length cartridges  have more power,but it isn't needed for whitetail.

These aren't typically available in the regular AR15.  The only cartridge currently available that comes close -  and its very very good -  is the 6.5 Grendel.  The 6.5mm bullet has very very good sectional density.  At modest Grendel velocities it opens quite well, but doesn't typically over expand (unless you chose an incorrect bullet), and its streamlined eough that it retains velocities well.  You don't want super tough bullets in the grendel.  Initial and impact velocities are modest.  A really tough bullet won't open fast enough.  I'd personally stick a Nosler ballistic tip or Hornady SST in the grendel

I own a .300 AAC Blackout.  To my mind, its pretty much a dead ringer for 7.62x39 performance wise.  Its effective, but its got range limits. its not "ideal".

With a correct, ideal cartridge (based on 308 win case), you aren't limited to taking neck shots.  You can punch a bullet through the heart lungs area, break down shoulders and get 100% effectiveness on your deer.  Your cartridge selection  was a factor in this failure.  However, your grandpa was wrong.  The neck is a VERY effective target  - until it isn't.  The bigger heart/lung area is more effective.  Its a bigger target, with more room for error.  I don't know your grandpa, but i know my grandpa, and my dad, and me and my brother and everyone else I know sometimes isn't 100% on target.  Example:  I pulled a shot on a big doe at 186 yards last week.  I was off my aiming point by about 4".  Thats a wound and not a kill with a neck shot.  Fortuantely, it was aiming heart lungs.  The bigger target meant I was still on lungs, even with my admittedly shitty shot.  No problem.  Instead of dropping dead as I had expected, she rain for about all of six seconds and piled in dead.  The Grendel scan work quite similarly.

Edit:  If you still insist on neck shots, I'd avoid big slow bullets like the 458 Socom.  It''ll plow through a rhino, but it lacks velocity.  If you hit the spine, that deer is dead (but this is the case for your current 5.56).  If you miss by two inches, I suspect that deer will still run.  With a higher velocity round, the greater 'shock' likely transmits better through tissue, meaning you can likely dislocate that cervical vertebra with shock, unlike the big slow bullet.  Trajectory issues at extended range will make these big slow bullets a bit more of a challenge at longer ranges too.

6.8 or 6.5 are your current best options...

Fro

Arfcommer RagedRacer's daughter dropped a nice sized cow elk with the 6.5 Grendel a couple months ago. We both built grendel's for a mule deer hunt a couple years ago. I like it and he likes it. YMMV. In my opinion the 6.5 or 6.8 or 7.62x40 are all great hunting rounds.  From our testing here at work the 7.62x40 is a modern equivalent to the 30-30.

Fellas, thanks again for the great, first hand, real world info.

So 6.8 for all intents and purposes will perform like a .270 for comparison's sake.

How does the 6.5 Grendel perform? Is there a decent comparison cartridge for trajectory and velocity?

My advice...

Don't take 143 yard neck shots.
When an animal needs finishing off, do it ASAP, don't wait.
When you have to finish off an animal, shoot it, don't go ISIS on it.

The .223 is fine for killing deer, your story is why the .223 gets a bad rap. You asked for advice, there it is...

ETA- and for the record, I've taken lots of deer with the .223 AR15. Never had to track one or shoot it twice.

Well, asked for advice on building a new rifle, but thanks...

SOCOM .458

I recently gave my brother similar advice.  He wasn't hitting his target with his rifle, so he wanted to build a new one.  I told him to take a class to bone up on marksmanship fundamentals, and that he didn't need a new rifle.  You don't, either.  Thr above poster gave solid advice.

I have a friend who shot the buck of a lifetime last year-17 point non-typical.  Hit it in the neck (unintentionally) with a 300 win mag.  Went down for 15 minutes, and as he approached, it got up and ran off as if uninjured.  He shot it again 3 hours later as it was frollicking with a doe.  Your rifle is not the problem.

Quoted as the OP does not get it... another hunter trying to compensate for poor shooting/target selection. OP makes a less than desired hit and chooses to compensate for it by getting a bigger gun...

Took two Does with a 6.5 Grendel this year. Blew the heart clean in half on a 120lb doe. She ran about 20 feet. I dropped the other one in its tracks. Good round imho. Not much compares to it besides 6.8
Think of both of them as flatter/ faster shooting 30/30's.

6.8SPC or 6.5

Well this will be a great project to get started on. It's still a tossup for now as to 6.8 or 6.5. It seems like each has it's advantages, with possibly a slight edge to the 6.5 for some additional velocity at distance. Going to start building an upper now, I've got a year before next season, and hopefully I can snag a buck with my bow before this season ends. This will be my first time building an upper or anything really from scratch. I have messed around with each and every firearm I have to some degree, so I should be able to walk myself through it between all the info on here and some buddies who've built some. I'll probably stick with the 20" barrel on either unless there are any better suggestions, and will most likely start with a Primary Arms optic of some kind, then save for better glass if needed.

20 inch is gonna be awfully long in a tree stand the 6.5/8 don't suffer from a lot of velocity loss in shorter barrels. I run an 18 inch bbl with a Vltor modstock. Worked fine. Unless you're planning on doing a lot of long range work I would stick to 16-18 in bbls

 

No, it uses about 1/2 the powder of a .270 WIN. 27-30gr+/- vs 55gr .


The 300BO is ballisticaly similar to the 7.62x39 AK.
the 6.8 is supposed to have similar ballistics to the 3.08 trajectory. 44% more power than the 5.56.
The 6.5 Grendel is very similar to the 6.8. But, most of the bullets a large percentage match bullets that have Better BC than the 6.8. velocity  accuracy. Barrel length over 18" increases velocity & accuracy much more than the 6.8.  Add in the high BC.  But , the 6.8 bullets comes out of the barrel faster.
The 6,8 was designed for an SBR. It's (alleged 'sweet spot is with the 16". With minor change with increase of barrel length (25 - 35fps/inch of barrel)  



No, the 6.8 will perform closer to a compromise between 5.56 & .308.

6.5 G Performance is said to be a little flatter than the .308. However, the force of a 149gr -160/175 vs 123gr are very different.

So, in essence the 6.8 is a GPC (Jack-of All -Trades) not a SPC. With a grain selection from (75gr CS Custom, otherwise 85gr to120gr. Incl. ATK surplus ammo 90gr Gold Dot (current factory load {many bullets designed for the 6.8 spc) 130gr -150gr for longer than mag length (Cut a 'U' [5 round deep] front of mag.)
It will shoot suppressed ( not as quiet). and long range as the 6.5G. not as a long range precision as the 6.5G. But, it snapping at it's heels.Up to the shooter.

6.8

I built a 6.8 spc and love it.  No issue taking deer size game.

for AR10 you have 308, 7-08, 6.5 Creedmoore, and 243 which are all excellent for deer.  The lighter loads for each are pretty flat out to 400 yards, but not quite as flat as 270 and magnums

AR15 you have 223, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8spc, 277 Wolverine, 30 AR, and 300 blackout.  I wont mention the wildcats, but some are nice for reloaders.

223 is the flattest, but by far it carries the least energy at range and likes longer barrels for the velocity.  FYI, yes you can kill a deer with a 7.5" kitty kat if you want to.

6.5 and 6.8 are the next flattest.  They carry plenty of energy out to 350 yards, but you MUST use the correct bullets for ethical kills at range. Each is like a 270 reduced recoil shot through a short barrel, and they excel in 16" barrels. Anything a 270 can do, a 6.8 or 6.5 can do from 300 yards CLOSER.  6.8 does not have the same ballistic coefiicient as 270, it uses lighter bullets not used in 270.  6.5 and 6.8 follow the same trajectory as heavier 308 bullets (168/180 grains) out to 400 yards.  After 400 yards, the 308 walks off and leaves them both. The 308 will also benefit much more from a barrel over 20" than the 6.8 and 6.5.  150 grain 308's will generally be flatter than all 6.5 and 6.8. 6.5 and 6.8 use special magazines.

6.5 is better for longer range accuracy with reloaded ammunition.

6.8 has a wide selection of factory loaded ammunition.

277 Wolverine is like a weak 6.8 using a 5.56 case (think 300 black with a .277 bullet), but you must reload for this.  It does use ar15 magazines.  It can almost go as far out as a 6.8 and is a very efficient powder burner.

300 black is like a 30-30 with a slow arcing rainbow flight path.  It carries plenty of energy, but the arc is just horrible past 200 yards.  Most 308 bullets are not designed to perform at these low velocities, but lots of factory ammo has 110gr and 125gr bullets designed just for 300 blackout.  it EXCELLS from very short barrels.  You could kill a deer at 200 yards with an 8" SBR if you hit him right.  Anything a 30-30 can do, the 16" 300 black can do with a bullet that weights 25 grains less.  300 black through 8-12" barrels don't lose much to a 16" barrel, but every fps lost is more arc.

30AR is like a heavier, but slower moving 6.8. Its not very popular .

Well said here.

Back to what the OP is wanting is a bit bigger gun.  For shots past 150 yds go 6.8, 277, or 6.5 for the longer range.  Now if all your shots are under 150 yds then 300blk is where its at.  I have several 300blk rifle set up just for rifle hunting but never take a shot over 150yds.  

And BTW neck shots are not the most humane way to kill a deer.

 
Actually, you don't have to reload. I've had excellent success with the Wolverine on varmints, and recently a big doe, using ammo from JB's Firearms. Their 100gr Nosler Accubond load is very accurate, has a good amount of energy thanks to moving at about 2600FPS, and does a great job on deer.


Their 90gr TNT load is great for general shooting, and it does a number on groundhogs also.

6.5 Grendel is perfectly suited to do what you seek.


More importantly, finish off your wounded deer right god damn now when they're fucking suffering. WTF were you thinking for an hour?


 

eta- There are going to be times when the shot isn't perfect, that's hunting, and always will be. What you did is just flat wrong. I hope you understand that and do it right next time.

16" 6.8 SPC on a Cav Arms lower.

It also has several very good hunting bullets designed for the speeds it operates at.

Barnes 95gr TTSX
Nosler 100gr Accubond
Nosler 110gr Accubond
Hornady 100gr GMX
Hornady 120gr SST
Federal Fusion 115gr
Federal 90gr Gold Dots

6.8 for 200 yards or less.    Not much reason to take longer shots.  6.8 IS 270.    6.8 bullet ranges from 80 grain to 130.  Factory loads are 110 and 115 grain and slower than handloads.
Lots of Texas hog hunters are using 6.8 with 90 gold dot bullets.   Light recoil, flat shooting, hard hitting.   Good shot placement is essential to any clean harvest.  Finish shots with any caliber are common and worthwhile.

We've got a game hunting survey going on through the 6.5 Grendel Forum. The survey is ongoing, and was started in November, 2015.  Most people have never heard of it, so the samples are pretty small right now, but not surprising.  It's being updated as we speak with more results from this past season.  Barrel lengths range from 10.5" to 24", with most being 16", 18", and 20".  12.5" is about ideal for a stalking gun, especially suppressed.  2 of the elk that were DRT'd this season were done with 16" Grendel's, both using 123gr SST.

12.5" 6.5 Grendel Suppressed



Out of 229 animals, including elk, 207 went down within 25yds.  144 of those were DRT/ 0yds.  This included small deer, mule deer (large game), elk, hogs, coyotes, bobcats, and Oryx. Most are deer and hogs.

You can see that the 123gr weight is the most popular, with 128 samples.  The 123gr SST is the most common hunting projectile used, followed by the 123gr AMAX. Most people just use the factory Hornady load # 8152.

Next is the 120gr, with 58 samples.  The 120gr Nosler Ballistic Tip and 120gr TSX make up the most of these.  There are factory loads for both from at least 2 sources, Alexander Arms and Precision Firearms.

Next is the 100gr with 21 samples, and these are usually the 100gr TTSX or 100gr Nosler Ballistic Tip, both having factory loads from PF.

Next is the 130gr with 8 samples, which include the 130 Swift Scirocco, 130gr Berger VLD, and 130gr Nosler Accubond.  All are available as factory loads from AA and PF, with the 130gr AB being replaced by the 129gr ABLR (1300fps expansion, .552 Litz G1 BC).




As a forum, we collaborated while working closely with different industry sources for power/projectiles/brass and produced 2 6.5 Grendel Handbooks that include a lot of reloading data.  The 2nd Volume is really focused on Hunting, and has 81 projectiles listed for that application.  Even if you exclude all the 140gr or higher 6.5mm pills, you still have 53 from that list, which has been added to since then when looking at offerings from Berger (130gr OTM Hybrid), Lehigh Defense (95gr CC), GS Customs (86gr HV), and some others.

You got links to any of that stuff? I can add one DRT and one ran 15 feet.

 

This is where the survey is being collected:  6.5 Grendel "knock down" survey

The guy who started it is the one who does that Long Range Blog on youtube.  He recently built a custom 6.5 Grendel bolt gun (he's in Norway, can't have AR15's).

make mine 6.8SPCII

Wilson Combat lightweight hunter barrel 16" middy

PRI 12" carbon fiber

JP trigger

That's worked for me in the past.  Bottom line is there is not always going to be a one-shot kill.  You may have to do a follow-up shot.  I wouldn't over think this too much.  Nature wants to survive.