Hi Guys...

I don't know why, but lately I've been either getting calls from friends asking "Is this  good load for my deer rifle?" or reports that go something like this " I used these premium bullets but the deer didn't seem to want to die!".  For some reason I've encountered this  a LOT lately....  Here's my half assed attempt at explaining hunting bullets....

There are a LOT of VERY good bullets on the market.  However, ALL of them are designed for a specific purpose.  No one bullet will do great at everything.  The trick or secret to great performance on your deer, elk, caribou or moose is matching the bullet, cartridge and game.  If you can pick a good bullet for your game, and then deliver it at the right speed, you'll see fantastic performance.  Use the wrong bullet and it fails (most people know this one).  But if you use a great bullet, and use it outside its ideal performance window, it will again fail.

Lets use an example:  Want to drive fast, and have fun?  Buy a Porsche or a 'Vette.  These are nice, premium autos.  They do things like go fast, brake, and corner very well.  Definitely "premium" autos.  However, if you want to haul the wife, both kids and the dog to Florida to go to disney, the Porsche 911 won't cut it.  And both the Vette and the Porsche are the wrong vehicles for pulling your bass boat....  

If you want a bullet to perform spectacularly, you need to match the bullet, impact speed and the game.

In my mind there are a couple general categories of bullets.  

1) Old School "cup and core" soft points like Rem CoreLokts, Win PowerPoints, Hornady Interlocks, etc.  These literally are a 'cup' of copper alloy jacket metal, with a lead core squeezed inside.  They have been around for 120+ years and generally work well.  They expand well, but will over expand, shed jackets, and fragment if they are used with impact speeds that are too high.  They also don't do wonderfully on really big critters and big bones.

These work very well on deer sized critters, out of cartridges like 260, 7mm08, 308, 270, 3006, etc.  All of these have moderate impact speeds and the cup and cores generally hold up well.  If you use a light for caliber bullet (like a 150 in 308 or 3006), you'll see more rapid expansion.  If you opt for heavy for caliber (180 in 308,3006) you see more modest expansion and deeper penetration due to heavier bullets and also due to somewhat lower impact speeds.  If impact speeds are on the order of 2400 to 2900 fps, these old school bullets work very well on deer.

More is not always better:  Use these bullets at higher speeds and they crap out.  Take that same 150 Rem Corelokt that worked fine in your 308, load it into your 300 Weatherby and all of a sudden it craps out.  Many people think that if a 308 is good, a 300 must be "more better".  Not true with these bullets:  When impact speeds start getting up into 3000+ fps, these bullets come apart and fail.  

2) Poly tipped bullets:  These are generally easy to understand:  Take the cup and core, remove the lead tip, and stick a plastic one on.  These act much like soft points, only many of them can be somewhat more violently expanding.  Everything said about soft points applies here, only more so.  Nosler ballistic tips and the various clones work VERY well on deer,provided impact speeds are modest.  They open hard and fast at speeds of 2200-2600.   They hold velocity well, and are great longer range bullets since they are streamlined and they still open hard when distances are long and velocities have dropped.  

Push these fast and they fail terribly.  While they are fantastic out of your 20" barreled 7mm08, they simply will not hold up at magnum speeds and close ranges.  I've seen a lot of guys buy these, thinking faster and flatter is better.  That 130 Ballistic Tip out of your 270 Win Short Mag might look good on paper, but it will not hold up on a tough bone.  Expect a failure.

3) Penetrators:  Decades ago hunters noticed that soft points wouldn't drive as deeply as they wanted on big critters like moose.  And then this was really compounded when magnums hit the market.  That 180 Corelokt that worked okay on deer out of the 30-06 didn't work so well out of a 300 H&H on moose.  So bullets like the Nosler Partition, and later the TSX, TTSX, Swift Aframes, Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, and later bondeds and monolithics were developed.  These will do two things: They will hold up under higher impact speeds and not come apart as easy.  And they are designed to open somewhat slower and as a consequence drive deeper.  These are frequently touted in gun magazines as the best thing going...

There is a problem:  These are designed for high speeds and bigger game.  Take a ttsx and drive it hard and fast out of your 300 Win Mag.  It will work well on everything from big whitetails to moose.  However, it needs speed to work well.  Hunters read all the glowing reports of these bullets (often used in magnums) and think "wow, if this anchors moose and elk, it outta flatten deer!" so they pay $40 a box and buy some for their 308.  And they are disappointed.  The cartridges that worked so well with soft points often don't drive these premiums fast enough to really open well.  Oh, they do expand and open, but performance is often not quite as spectacular as we might expect from these $2 a piece wonder bullets....  The reason is simply speed.  Impact speeds of 2000-2300 just won't open these up as hard and fast as we might like..

I've used 165 Nosler Ballistic Tips out of a short 308 on northern whitetails for years.  My actual muzzle velocities are closer to old school 300 Savage speeds than 308 Win.  The majority of the dozens of deer I've hit with these have rolled over dead right there.   Kills are spectacular.   These noslers are opening hard and fast and I believe I've right in the "Sweet Spot" for this bullet.  And the bullet is matched to the game:  They drive three inches deep, positively explode, vaporize and mangle a good melon-sized chunk of heart, artery and lungs, and then just manage to exit.    I wouldn't dream of using these on elk or moose, and most certainly not out of a magnum.  And this same 165 BT would be really ugly out of a 300 Weatherby.  It's simple not strong enough to hold up to those impact speeds.

On the other hand, I've personally used and seen premium penetrators totally fail on little deer.  In one case, I used a 225 Nosler Partition out of a 350 Rem Mag.  That deer was positively zeroed.  However, that deep driving bullet, at modest speeds (Muzzle Velocity of 2620) drove really deep and was just starting to expand well when it exited and did a great job of killing the hillside beyond the deer.  Post morterm showed a surprising narrow wound track.  Like wise I've seen other penetrators well suited to moose and elk used on little 100 lb freezer does.  They often run 200+ yards, since the wound tracks are surprisingly small and narrow.  Impact speeds are simply too low, and the game too small for these to work well.  We've seen similar reports here in this forum:  Pics of just barely expanded premiums that for all intents acted a lot like a fmj...  I've personally seen small 75 lb button bucks take center shots with super premium bullets out of 300 WSM's, and run 200+ yards before giving up the ghost.  Grand dad's old 30-30 worked faster.......  And old school 150 power points are $15 a box.

There is nothing wrong with any of these bullets(Softpoints, polys, and premium penetrators).  Each is designed for a specific purpose.  A bullet that will open well at pedestrian speeds out of granddad's 300 Savage on deer won't work well out of your 300 Weatherby on moose.  And your super deep driving premium out of your 300 Mag won't do well out of the 300 savage on deer.  The real key is, in my opinion, finding a bullet whose performance sweet spot matches the expected impact speeds of your particular cartridge.  It might be a premium bullet, but it likely won't work as well as your would hope if impact speeds are low and game is modest.

(All of the above applies as a general theory for most common deer cartridges like 270, 308, 3006, etc.  30-30 and 35 Rem are exceptions.  Impact speeds are really low with these, so makers use designed-for-caliber bullets.  The old school 150 Flat point for a 30-30 isn't factory loaded into anything but 30-30 or some youth loads in 308 and 3006 that run at 30-30 speeds.  These bullets work VERY well, since they are 'tuned' to the cartridge.  Likewise, non-traditional cartridges -  this 223 and 22-250 -  were not generally considered deer cartridges until recently.  Little 55 soft points out of a 223 didn't work reliably on deer all the time (since impact speeds were often high, and bullet construction light).  Many people have been using TSX, bondeds and the like with good success rates.  Think about it though:  With impact speeds often approaching 3000 fps, aren't these a lot like small-scale magnums when we talk about deer???  The impact speeds are similar)

There are tons of exceptions and special cases.  We can start talking about 45-70s, 25-20's, youth loads, super short barrels, extra long ranges, etc.  Heck, trying to find that perfect load is something that makes reloading fun.  However, i'd argue that most of this holds true most of the time.   I hope this helps......

Fro



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Nothing to add; I pretty well agree. I have had excellent results on deer with GameKings in several rifles with muzzle velocities in the 2600-2700fps range. I would be doing myself a disservice by going to a premium bullet; but you know where the advertising $ is going at the moment.

In my opinion you don't need expensive premium bullets for deer hunting. Deer aren't that tough of an animal to bring down if you're using a cartridge other than .223 or smaller.

If hunting deer with a .223 I would definitely use premium bullets. What was once considered a varmint cartridge is now suitable for larger game with premium bullets.

#1 factor every time is shot placement. Shoot a deer through the lungs and it will run about 50-75 yards and die. Heart shot they run about 25 yards. High shoulder, neck, spine, head shot DRT.

I use Sierra Gameking bullets in my 30-06. In my 6.8 SPC I use 120 gr Hornady SST. In my 7mm08 I use a 120 gr Ballistic Tip.

great post.

I've read it twice.
I would add, that we have not had good luck with Remington Core Lokt. we traditionally shoot our deer at ranges from 10-40 yards and no matter what caliber has been used, most of the time there will not be an exit wound and from the appearance of the entry and internal viscera there is evidence of the bullet disentegrating on impact.  I quite using them 20 years ago for 30-06's and only recently used them in my sons 7mm-08 due to the ammo shortage.

same effect, no exit at 20 yards.
I have since relegated the Remington loads to target shooting and have bought several boxes of Federal Nosler Partition loads.

I shoot Winchester Power Points as a standard load in my 30-06 due to the fact that like others I cannot see myself paying $45 a box for shooting deer. I will say that the Winchester Ammo in numerous calibers has been fairly decent. Federal always gets my top rating.

Weird.  All I've ever used in my 270, 30-06, and 308 have been Remington Core-Lokt.  I've shot deer from 10 yards to about 250 yards and always had an exit wound.  I do use the 'premier' versions, becaues they shoot well under moa in my rifles vs the regular ones which are usually around 1 to 1.25 MOA.

Winchester Power Point has done all I've ever asked it to do out of my .30-06.  165 grain, only ever recovered one, and it was found nicely mushroomed against the hide on the far side of a quartering away shot, after smashing through quite a bit of muscle, organs, and bone.

in 1984 I sent a letter to remington with a picture of a deer I shot at 15 yards with a massive shoulder wound with no chest penetration, they sent me a letter back standing by their load and that in their opinion "no standard hunting load under normal pressures would withstand impacts intact at that range" I should have kept that letter.

I never shot a core- lokt in my own guns since then. like I stated I only bought them for my boy's 7mm-08 due to the ammo shortage. my boy has shot 6 deer with it ( both does and bucks) and only 1 exit wound.  these are the standard 7mm-08 load, not the reduced recoil load. I think alot of people are happy as a pig in shit over jsut killing a deer and not the mechanics to every gripe about it.

I've killed a metric ton of deer and for cheap ammo the WPP loads have done extremely well at a economic balance of quality. I try to buy up a box every time I am out and about.

9 out of 10 hunters agree: If you shoot a deer through the heart, they die.

I agree with what you say.

<<<.30-06, 150 Speer Hot Cor. 2840 fps. Perfect for deer and antelope.

I picked up a couple of boxes of these to try the other day. I'm hoping they'll do well.

       I have happily settled on lighter grain Barnes than what would be considered normal for a given caliber/cartridge in the old school cup and core from .224 cals, on up to the .35 cals with great results over the past 10/15 years. Non-magnum and magnum cartridges alike. I like the ability to take what used to be a marginal shot angle and know that what was a tough angle will penetrate to the vitals. Seems like insurance to me if a quick decision needs to be made. Plenty of ways to skin that cat, of course, this just happens to be mine.






 

I recently found a box of Core Lokt that I lost 6-8 years ago and was sad that I found it. Those are pure crap out of my gun (and all but one other person's that I know). They kill, but so will a rock. Hornady SST's are amazing in my 7x57, 150yds and less.. In my 556/223 AR, my 2 deer kills are with Federal American Eagle 50g varmint tips, 100yds and less.

I reload so have very little experience with factory ammo but I did take one deer with a CorLokt in 30-06. I was not very impressed with it either; it worked but I did have time to put a follow up shot in him. He didn't react all that much to the first shot as I recall (now this was at least 10 years ago so my memory is a little fuzzy).  First shot was placed properly as well. I'm trying to remember the bullet weight but it's been too long. SST's may perform fine but I tried 150's out of my 30-06 and 140's out of my 260 and accuracy was very mediocre. Now in fairness my 260 was very finicky and it took me a while to find a combo that would do 1" at 100 and once I found one I stopped and my 30-06 is now a 35 Whelen.

I still say a 12 Ga. slug into the boiler room at 35 yards is the most impressive kill shot I've ever seen.

Great post. Count me in the 30-06, 150 or 168 Gr. Nosler BT fan club.  That combo has been responsible
for a veritable dump truck full of venison for me.........

I agree with this entire post.

I have taken a nice sized doe using 62 grain bonded 5.56 (T3 Federal) as well as 6.8 120gr SST.  At about the same distance, the first doe ran about a hundred yards and bled out. (double lung shot) and the second doe was basically DRT.  Shot placement is definitely key!

This needs to be stuck to the FAQ.





OP, you presented that information very cleanly.  Better than what you find from most magazine writers.

 

THANKS!  I appreciate the feedback.

There was a time when the only ammo was pretty much a choice between regular old soft points from Win, Fed or Rem.  You opted for 150,165,180 in your '06 and then hit the woods...  I've been seeing a LOT of hunters spending big money on Super premium ammo, and then ending up disappointed because its not working like they expected.

Thank you for posting.  

It gives me a lot more direction than talking to other folks to see what they shoot; without any specific reason as to why they use it.  And it gives me the confidence that the ones I'm making are going to work well with my specific needs in mind.

Nice write up, My favorite for pigs and whitetail lately, with one of my sons hanging around, has been 243 85gr TSX from Federal. The load is an absolute killing machine on everything it hits. I cannot get Remington core locs to shoot worth crap in any of my guns, its garbage in my opinion.