Thoughts on the .357 for deer, multi use cartridge when using heavy loads from a carbine?

150 grain 30-30 energy is 1903 Ft Lbs
125 grain .357 is 710
You can kill anything with a 22 LR but i dont go Bear hunting with one.

.357 magnum out of a lever action rifle / carbine is a whole different animal.. and many loads reach energy well over 1000 ft lbs.. Within reason, it would be fine for deer & similar animals or two legged critters.

.357 magnum ballistics by the inch

I had a Marlin in 357 paired with my S&W 66.
The load that worked great in the Lever was too stout for the 66 so I was carrying 2 different loads in the same caliber.

I really like the Lever as an English "Rook" rifle ie a walking woods gun.
But the very few days we can get out and the chance of a close shot pushed us to car 30-30s.

357 will drop a deer if you do your job.

Bailey Bradshaw makes double rifles in .357 maximum. It's like a 180 at 2000 FPS or something like that. You can also use a .22 Hornet and .410 barrel set on the same frame. Do want.

The 357 will do very well out to about 125 yards.  It does work well BUT it is load dependent.

It will not work great if you cram any old 357 load in a carbine.  Most 357 loads are designed for impact speeds from pistols.  When pushed out of the typical 18-20" carbine barrel, the bullets are going substantially faster (on the order of 400, sometimes 500 fps faster).  Most JHP bullets won't penetrate well when pushed that hard.

The problem is finding a bullet that will handle impact speeds of up to 1900 fps (and yes, you can get 1900 out of a carbine) at close ranges, yet still expand well at slower speeds way out at 125 yard.  A significant amount of informal 'research' has been done on this (marlinowners.com) and the consensus is that the single best bullet for deer is the Remington 158 Jacketed Soft Point.  

This bullet can be pushed to over 1900 fps, safely, in a 1894 Marlin carbine with the use of Lil'Gun. The original 30-30 factory load pushed a 165 at 1900 if I remember correctly, so this load very much is 30-30 equivalent.  There is one problem:  Lil'gun is EXTREMELY hard on barrels, and the temperatures generated are excessive.  If you use another powder, you won't  quite get this top end, but you can get awfully close.

If you use any common JHP bullet and connect with  a whitetail at close range, expect spotty performance.  Odds are the JHP will come apart causing a nasty surface wound without adequate penetration.  You really do need a 'tougher than normal' bullet to get good penetration at speeds of 1700,1800 fps

You could use hard cast lead bullets, but increased speeds might be an issue with leading.

Good information to have frozenny.
Thank you.

Exactly, good post. We had a young lady at one of our Youth Hunts use a Marlin loaded with 125JHP's; she and dad said they made a good hit; we'll never know as the animal was never recovered. The 125 is borderline on penetration in the FBI tests out of a handgun; at rifle speeds are not a good choice - concur with a 158JSP as a good choice. They didn't know any better and the guy behind the counter recommended the 125's - betting a case of Marshall & Sanow strike again.

How much more favored is the 44 within the same guidelines, and do you believe it better enough to justify the increased recoil, weight and cost?

The .357 works very well, provided you use the right bullet and load.  As noted earlier, the typical .357 load is intended for handguns.  90% of these FAIL in carbines and at carbine velocities. Unfortunately, there aren't tons of great 357 carbine loads on the market.  Its more a handloaders proposition.

The .44 is better.  It works great, and its more flexible.  Many 44 loads are still intended as handgun loads, and when pushed faster they do tend to come apart.  However, the remaining 'pieces' tend to be bigger and heavier and they still manage to punch deeper and get more work done.  I've pushed a regular cup and core non-bonded 240 JHP out of a 20" Marlin 1894, and centered a modest woodchuck.  We are talking a critter that weighs 10 lbs, and is maybe 8 inches thick.  I found the jacket, completely separated from the core, hung up on fur on the exit wound. This is a great example of the wrong bullet - JHP's open too fast at carbine speeds.

Use a 240-300 Jacketed Soft Point and whitetail are in the freezer.  There are a fair number of .44 carbines, made and intended for whitetail.  Ruger .44 semis and levers.  .44 levers from Rossi, Marlin, Winchester and others.

I can get 1900 fps out of a 357 with a 158 Remington JSP over Lil'gun.  I can reasonably close to -1800fps - that with other powders.  The same rifle, chambered for .44 can push a 240gr to 1700-1800 without an issue.  The 240 at 1800 is going to hit far harder than the 158 at 1800.

The .44's are bigger and blunter.  They aren't going to suddenly become a longer range rifle.  However, within the same 125 yard range, the .44's are going to hit with a lot more authority.  And those bigger bullets will tend to drive deeper and harder.  Something like Hornady's 265 softpoint would be a real thumper in .44 mag.  The real advantage with .44 will be the ability to use a broader selection of factory ammo.  Since there are a lot more ,44 carbines out there, factories make more ammo that is suitable for carbines.  Off the top of my head I think PMC, Magtec, Win, S&B, Prvi Partizan, Federal and others all make 240 to 300 Jacketed SOFT point ammo.  Any of these will work.  Under no circumstances would I use the 180 JHP loads.  I used these on snowshoe rabbits once and it got.......... messy.

One off topic comment:  I know that in theory you can use .44 Special loads in a .44 Magnum carbine.  Yes, they do load and fire.  Forget about the concept.  its not practical.  I saw a good six inches of point of impact change at ranges of less than 25 yards with the two loads.The difference in trajectories and point of impact make switching between these two an idea that simply does not work well.

DocGKR did a write up that concluded the best choice for carbine and pistol in .44 was the 300 XTP.

In the Maine woods, I would guess more 357 revolvers have killed deer than any other handgun. My dad has shot more deer with his Blackhawks than just about any other or every other gun in our house.
As always,YMMV

BEV

Could you post a link to that?

My only 44 Mag is a Marlin 1894P and from what I've read, the twist rate is too slow to reliably stabilize the heavier bullets.....although I haven't tried the 300 gr XTP's yet.

Might be something to try in the near future.

Unfortunately when Grant Timberlake ran DocGKR off of his forum that information was lost.

Also, I don't expect that your barrel will handle such heavy bullets. I think 265gr is the max. If I were you I would rebarrel rather than stay under that but I'm known for perfectionism at high cost.






.357 Carbine in gel: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?145182-Gelatin-tests-357-mag-from-carbine-amp-10mm-155-gr-XPB

Thanks for the link and the info.
My Marlin is an 1894P,(made for 3 years with a ported barrel), I wont be rebarreling it at all.

The 357 will work on deer.  I know a lot of people who would say 100 yards from a rifle is acceptable range, but not many that would go over that.  I would feel best if it was under a 75 yard shot with a 357 rifle.  A cousin of mine has hunted with a Marlin 1894 in 357 and has taken deer with it.  The farthest he was able to shoot was probably 75-80 yards in the clear cut where he hunted.  I would take the 30-30 over the 357 if I was going to do a lot of deer hunting.  If you are set on having a pistol caliber though why not get a 44 magnum rifle?  It will make a bigger hole and you have heavier bullets to choose from if you want to hunt.

Thanks for sharing your experience gents!

A friend of mine used to use 38 wadcutters from a lever gun. He bought them surplus from the USAF. He liked them because they were quiet but was very aware of the limitations of the rifle and caliber. Had they not been cheap and quiet he would have not used them.