I ran accross this story (with pics of the deer killed) elsewhere on arfcom.  I replied.  Here is the link:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/356852_Will_300_Blackout_Subsonic_Kill_a_deer___Warning_____Graphic___.html&page=1

Deer acted just like you would expect after being shot with a FMK - the SMK is essentially the same thing since it does not expand at all.  

Please reply over there if you have an opinion on this one.

...

sierra has warned against using matchking bullets on game animals for a long time.   that said a friend of mine used 220 gr SMK loaded subsonic through his 300 WTF (whisper/blk) and killed 2 does with a single bullet .. they will work but are not "optimum"

I have used the 168's for about 20 years. works fine, never had one go further than 40 yards.(all of my shots are under 100 yards)

I'll save you the clicking back and forth and copy/paste this one




Boy, there's gonna be a bunch of upset guys over on snipershide.com when they hear that they've been smoking the shit out of animals with a bullet that doesn't work...







Imagine, if you will (or can), that Sierra suddenly declared that their OTM bullets expanded and were acceptible for hunting. The US military would immediately and forthwith cease ANY purchases of such projectiles, and Sierra's bottom line would do an impression of a lead balloon. Don't you think money COULD have something to do with why they don't recommend a bullet for hunting that has a documented history of working well in that application? Don't you suspect there MIGHT be a reason why the leading reccommended projectile for self-defense in 5.56 applications is currently some form of 69-75 grain OTM bullet?





Edit: A quote from a recent SH thread. 175 SMK on a whitetail:

So which expanding .308 bullet would you use for this particular application (keeping in mind that it must be subsonic)?

Seems to me that you have a lot of butthurt over getting called out on a lack of knowledge on why particular bullets are used in .308 caliber subsonic platforms....

For me, the winchester ballistic silver tip flys damn near exactly the same as the SMK.

I assume it expands well, never recovered one from the deer.

TXL

Sierra Game King.

I want to shoot a deer with a Barnes TSX 70gr, but haven't done so yet.

seems to me that if faster kills were so preferred that people would be promoting headshots to try and kill the deer instantly

Advocating head shots on deer with any ammunition/rifle is not very ethical, IMHO, but then again, ethics are in the eye of the beholder....

Those aren't subsonic....

I shoot a .260 rem for deer hunting for the most part. I shoot only handloaded 140gr Berger VLD's through it for hunting.
they make two versions, a hunting and a target.  the weight the same, fly the same and have same POI.

I tested them both in a ballistic buffalo.  the hunting version expanded nicely and left a nice wound channel.

the Target version did not expand, but in every test it tumbled and the tip broke off.
sometimes the tumbling made a nice wound channel, sometimes it didnt. in one instance it made one tumble and turned
90 degrees and passed out the side of the ballistic buffalo after about 8 inches.
sure the target one will prolly inflict damage, but the actions of the hunting version are much more consistent.

I wouldn't use a non-expanding bullet for deer hunting.  if you want to use a match bullet, I would highly recommend the
Berger line (they make non-VLD versions if your gun cant handle them)
VERY accurate and great on game. I took two deer this last season, both large MN does.
first one was at 285 yards, tipped right over and didn't move.
second one was at 480 yards, she made it all of 20 feet.

this one was recovered from a doe shot head on at around 400 yards two years ago

Define never recovered?  As in it passed through?

You can't load a round with these bullets that's subsonic?  Why not?

What's their minimum velocity for expansion?  I'll give you a hint, it's above the speed of sound anywhere in the United States....

I view an ethical kill as one that causes minimal pain before death, IOW one that causes a fast death. I look at it like this: ethical shot are ones you would take on yourself, if you want to get shot in the chest and suffer for a little while then have it; likewise, if you want to get shot in the head so it's over quick without feeling much (if anything) then go ahead.

But as you said it's in the eye of the beholder. If I hunted based on personal ethics I would be hunting with a Long Bow and an Atlatl, totally primitive.

I like your style!  Tomahawks and spears for me!  

Does anything really expand much at subsonic velocities?

Why hunt with subsonics anyway?  It's illegal (in Texas anyway) to hunt game animals with a suppressor.

Supersonic is fine for my purposes.  I still want to kill a deer with a TSX 70gr.

I know there are some bullets that are designed to expand at subsonic velocities. This place for example makes some: Outlaw State Bullets

And I know you're a little strapped there in the freedom restricting state of Texas, but some of us in free states are allowed to hunt with suppressors.

Flint napped knife and leather loin cloth for me

This thread makes me want fried deer loin with mashed potatoes and gravy.....

Damn, now I want to make the above....


I spent $90,000 over two years to get one sentence written in the law.  Do not tell me it can't be done....

I have been using SMKs for 6 years.  I like to shoot the same bullet for hunting that I do for targets.  I have killed around 15 deer in that time and none of them went farther than 30 yards.  I like it, I will keep using it and haters will always hate.

Not saying anyone is wrong for using smk on deer.

But if the manufacture says a bullet is not the best choice for deer hunting, and then you go use that bullet for deer hunting, and it doesn't perform well, its not the bullets fault, its yours for choosing the wrong bullet.

Just because something works for you doesn't mean it is the best tool for the job.  A surplus deuce and a half with manual transmission, no power steering or personnel heater will work for getting me from my home to my office, mi with a 27 mile commute that takes am hour and a half in heavy traffic it sure isn't the best choice.

I'm still waiting for an answer to the question I posed earlier: Don't you think it's conceivable that Sierra wold continue to claim the SMK should not be used for hunting in spite of extensive experience to the contrary, if changing their stance would cost the company significantly in the form of government contracts?



If the SMK is such a poor round for the job, why has the 69-75 grain SMK been the most highly recommended SD round for the 5.56 for quite some time now?

Been using SMKs on deer and pronghorns for years.

They work fine.

Just like anything else, gotta hit what you're aiming at.

-David
Edgewood, NM

Killed a pile of deer with SMK's. 30 cal 168's, 175's and 240's. It all comes down to shot placement.

Wow, CBR900, gets all up in a tizzy and uppity on that thread where guys are trying to tell him he does not now what he speaks of, and makes another post to get people to come to his side.

1st CBR900 is correct in that the SMK is not designed to expand at all., my understanding is that all match bullets are non expanding( I was using 178gr AMAX subsonic with the same devastating results)

Things to keep in perspective,

The Round was subsonic

There are only a few manufacturers that produce a .30 caliber bullet that expands at subsonic velocities.

That means that your favorite hunting soft point in .308 will not expand at subsonic velocities

Long heavy for caliber projectiles have been proven time and time again to tumble on impact at subsonic velocities. Thus creating devastating wound channels.

Deer Hunting is all about SHOT PLACEMENT.

How many deer were "unethically shot" using a .300 super duper magnum that catches your hair on fire when fired. but the animal not recovered

Also my experiences have shown less meat damage with a well placed shot from a subsonic verses a .308 Winchester at standard velocities, minor point but important to some people none the less.

If You do Not wish to hunt with subsonic fine, but do not tell me that I am an unethical hunter considering all the deer I have shot with subsonics have been quickly harvested, and more and more hunters are producing the same results.

I really wonder if 1928A1 in the other thread had said he used a 220 gr pro hunter sierra bullet would CBR900 even realized that the bullet would not have expanded at the velocities shot?

I shoot SMK because I want the extreme accuracy I havent seen with standard hunting bullets.  I'm one of those guys that practices shooting golf balls at 600y.  I only take headshots with that bullet.    I love tracking, but I never get to.

Dont click the thumbnails unless you want to see empty deer heads.
380 yards

265 yards

There's a difference between "not the best choice" and "a bad choice"



And just because it's not the best doesn't mean it won't work just fine. Why would I use a bullet that doesn't shoot that well just because it's made to expand? If it's not as consistant you risk bad shot placement and cause more harm than good (as far as we're concerned). If I have a bullet that I know I can put through the heart first time, every time, I'm not going to be concerned with the expansion. If you get shot through the heart with a non-expanding bullet, I can just about guarantee that you won't go as far as you would if you got shot in the stomach with an expanding bullet.

350 yards with a factory federal premium 165gr .308 Sierra Gameking btsp.

I would love to shoot more accurate hunting ammo, but between my crappy hogue stock and my mediocore skills, it just wont matter.

That is fantastic, great job.

I have shot a lot of deer with 69 grn SMKs they have worked fine every time, there are better choices though, 75 grn Tap works really well. 70 grn TSX works very well also.