Contractors started the install of a 22kw standby generator at the house today.  I took a bunch of pics - any interest?

Nick

Yes, very cool to have backup power.  Its costly but if you need it it's nice to have.   Will be cool to see setup..

Prosise

PLEASE POST!!

Up til now, we have made do with a portable generator during outages (currently using a 7k/9k dual fuel) - but it does take some doing to setup & monitor/maintain while it is running. The wife finally decided she wanted a system that would handle things even if I wasn't available.

We went with a unit sourced at Costco & using their referred installer. To accommodate our house (including a 5 ton heat pump) via the existing 200A breaker box, we ended up with a 22kw air cooled unit made by Generac (but with a Honeywell label). It will be LP fueled using our existing 500 gallon tank (LP furnace is our backup heat). The package includes a smart transfer switch with load management (necessary with the 5 ton unit).

The generator will be located about 75' away from the service entrance. The switch goes in by the meter & the feed lines will run through the crawl space, passing through the masonry wall at switch & generator locations. Once the switch & genny initial install is done, the propane guy will come the following day & change out regulators at tank & black iron feed point for current models (ours are 20+ years old), "T"ing off by the black iron feed & trenching along the wall to the generator location (about 40'). The Generac guys will then come back (probably the following day) & do initial startup, testing & adjustments as needed.

Permits were pulled & the Generac installers (sub-contractors?) came to start the process.

Power was off at the house during "phase 1" with the power company coming by to do the cut off.  The installer had said to figure on it possibly being 9A - 6P. (Hopefully it will be the last time I need to run the portable to keep things running).  Backup is a necessary task as we have a large freezer, 2 refrigerators and a freezer/fridge to worry about (wife likes capacity!). Top that off with it  one of the hottest days of the summer - got to have some fans running!

OK, now for some pics:

The first installers got here around 8A or so & started when the power co. came by & did the meter disconnect. One guy lined up things for attaching the switch box while the other started on the house main panel.



I had run extension cords earlier, and connected to the portable generator via a pass through at the sliding glass door in the kitchen (main concerns being refrigerators & freezer).  





As the existing breaker box will effectively become a sub-panel, it had to be modified for a 4 wire feed (neutral & ground seperate) instead of the existing 3 wire feed.  This meant that all existing neutral lines had to be moved to a new, isolated, bus bar.  






With the old feeds cut off, a hole is cut in the house panel to bring in the new feed.






The switch box is mounted by the meter and a conduit connects the two.



The new feed originates at the switch, but comes in above the meter position.






At the generator pad location, a hole is cut into the crawl space just above the sill.





At the switch location, a hole is cut into the crawl space through the masonry foundation.



Wire is laid out then fed from generator pad to the switch through the crawl space & secured to floor joists.





The installation location opening is boxed.



Connections are made in the switch.
 

 


A cement pad was placed at the install location, then the generator.


 


The generator was secured to the pad


 


A load management module was fitted to the feed for the 5 ton heat pump.


 


Conduit was installed to fit between generator & pass through.
 


All done & waiting for the electrical inspector - propane will be the next phase.

Clean work.  What does the load management do on the HVAC?  Does it lock it out if other demand exceeds the genny capacity?

What was the labor rate?

Noice! Welcome to the Generac club!

Somewhat complexified (TM) by the separate locations of your genny and the meter, but all good. I hope you put the generator as far from the master bedroom/living area as possible for maximum noise abatement? I have found that to be a key requirement for such installations. At our current QTH you can't even hear our generator, it being at the opposite end of the house from those locations.

To be more specific, right now I have a 17KW Generac with a service rated whole-house switch, fed by a 1Kgal propane tank. It is the cat's meow. It was demanded by my XYL. She had become spoiled by the 14KW Generac on an automatic subpanel that I installed at our old QTH, also fed by a 1Kgal propane tank there.

Funny story: at the old QTH we wanted a generator for a long time. Finally I got a hella "friend" deal on the 14KW. Picked it up, dropped it out of my truck at the end of the driveway in April, and there it sat until the XYL said "Honey, you know what will happen if you don't get it installed before winter!" I did all of the work myself, including the gas work, and, in a snowstorm at Thanksgiving, I made the final connections and all was good, but we had zero outages the entire winter, of course! After that it was "Honey, why did we spend all this money on a generator?" Fast forward to the following winter and an epic New England ice storm. We go to bed, and, at 2300ish, the power shits the bed. So XYL says "Honey..." and I respond "Wait for it..." Thirty seconds later the generator comes online and, well, let's just say my XYL loves me a lot That was an expensive date, though

500 gallon tank will be hurting if power is out 3-5 days. Longer and it will get very low. Run it with 1-2KW load for 1-2 hours. Then 8-10 KW for a few hours. At say 10-15 hours of load change oil and filter with good synthetic oil.

Keep enough oil and filters for 3 changes. Running 48-72 hours during a outage would need a oil change. For me 36-48 would be my change point. Oil is the life of an air cooled engine.

Great write up............

The 5 ton heat pump gets locked for a set period of time if the current total system load starts bumping the system max. It also gets a delayed startup time from system switch-over.  Air handler & propane furnace (backup/emergency heat) should be unaffected.

Not sure about the labor rate.  Got an all-inclusive quote from the Generac installation rep (referred by Costco) based on system & location.

We don't currently use much propane (heat pump is good down to the teens, gas furnace is a last resort).  I think it has been 2 years since the last fill & the tank is only down 100 gallons.   I am guestimating 30 gallons or so per 24 hr, but have been told similar setups are doing closer to 25/day.  It all depends on how much the heat pump is allowed to run.  Without it, the generator will probably not exceed a 1/4 load if we don't use the stove/cooktop or dryer.  Our water heater is heat pump only & draws maybe 500w when running.

System docs call for a shut-down every 24 hrs. during an extended outage to check oil & allow the system to cool.  Oil & filter changes (after break-in) are at 200 hr (or annual) intervals.  I do agree that extended operation would call for more frequent changes (to be on the safe side).  Oil & filters are cheap.  The filter is front & center for easy access and there is an oil drain tube that makes dumping the old oil simple.

Nick  

Excellent post and pictures.
Thanks for taking the time and posting this.
We have a whole house generator backup also on our house (13,000 watt), but it's not wired as elaborate as yours.
You went top notch, I have a little generator also that I run when we just want a few lights and tv
With the fridge running (3000 watt inverter Yamaha tri fuel) it gets ran more than the whole house gen. We only run the whole house gen when we want the 220 volt stuff to run like hot water heater or well. We heat with natural gas logs during outages since we have a heat pump.
I have NG here and quick disconnects around the place for generators, stoves and heaters.
Thanks again for the post.

Nope. Not at all. Post no pics.













ETA: freakin sweet!

Agree that you need to.keep clean oil in an engine but you can go much longer that that on this engine. It's propane so the oil won't get nearly as contaminated as on gas. Also, it has pressurized lubrication with an oil filter. Generators also run in nearly dust free environment. This engine could easily run 100 hrs per oil change and likely longer between changes.

I've been thinking on one of these.
The local gas co will amortize it out into my bill. It's still NOT cheap though.
They handle all the inspections/licenses, it's still around 10-12K.

Just over a year ago I went with a whole house generator. Generac 22kw. Very similar setup as yours. Unit out back behind the garage near the service entrance. Automatic transfer switch and load sharing widgets. My hang up was that although there was natural gas service to the neighborhood, the house was all electric. That entailed getting the parish to come out and tap into the main gas line, install the meter and regulator, then run the line to hook it up. Even though all the utilities were marked as required the walking dead ignored them and cut the phone and internet cable. Getting that fixed is another story.

Less than a week after the keys were handed over we had a nasty storm blow through. Power went out. Meanwhile I'm out of town on a work gig and get a phone call. Wife informs me of the situation and what does she have to do to get the gen online, blah, blah, blah. Right about that time the gen fired up and restored power. Instant hero.

So what is my after action report a year in? Boring. Except for that one power outage it hasn't been activated in anger. Without fail it self starts and does its weekly run for about 5 minutes. The generator guy who did the install highly recommended that I set the maintenance run for every week. Not so much to keep the engine exercised but to keep the generator head dry. Running it every week dries out whatever moisture collects in the generator head and will prolong the life of the unit.

I highly suggest getting into the manual and getting familiar with the control panel of the generator. At certain calendar times and run times maintenance trip points will be displayed. On mine there is an indicator on the right side of the unit. At one year I got a yellow indicator along with the green indicator. Popped open the hood and checked the maintenance page. All it was asking was that I check the battery and connections. Did that, reset the maintenance page and carried on.

As suggested earlier do keep a stock of filters and oil. During a prolonged outage figure on an oil change every 4 days. Oil is cheap compared to the investment you just made. Around here when a hurricane blows through you need to figure on being out for a week with two weeks not unusual. You know your situation and plan accordingly.

FWIW I run the numbers on what it would cost to run the thing. I'm on city natural gas and it came to about $30 a day. I remember paying that to run a 5kw gasoline generator during Gustav. Having to make the every other day trek to find fuel was a huge time sink to get out of my affected area to an area that had power restored so the gas pumps would work. That and being in line with all the other stressed out citizens didn't do my head any good. If the city natural gas goes out the S has HTF in a big way and I've got bigger problems than the power being out.

My total investment including running a new gas line was just over 9 grand. This was from an electrical contractor who did a turn key operation. I didn't have to do a thing except write the check. Big investment? Yes. Worth it? Hell yeah. And oh by the way. If you ever sell the house you just doubled your investment. According to a real estate agent a whole house generator adds 10 to 15 thousand to the value of your crib. One of the few things in home improvements that are worth more than the cost of doing it.

OK, phase 2(a).  The propane folks came out to start their portion of the install. Step one is to get the new line run from the existing line to the generator supply location.  Once it is in place, it gets presurized, then nothing more until the inspector signs off.

The existing supply to the house terminates against the foundation wall under the deck.  The plan was to route the new line around the deck sill perimeter, then go underground from the corner to the generator location.


Existing line.



Trenching for the line.







The  new line gets laid out...



and secured to the deck sill.



With the line in the trench to the generator, both ends of the line get  flared, then they cap the source end and attach a pressure gauge to the delivery end.

.

The line is pressurized to about 60 lb. and now things wait for the inspector to come by...




[to be continued after the inspector visits]


Nick

Nice set-up, and nice write up.  

Sometimes I think about adding a generator, but I can only think of once in the past 59 years, when it would have been nice to have one.  Right now, if the power goes out for an extended period of time, my plan is to get in my truck and drive to Florida (or somewhere else where the power is working). Still, having a generator would be nice.

Looks like the contractors in your area eat pretty well.

Have the same setup. Good to go....but mine likes a new battery every 2 years

clean your AC coils and you will save some money

The guy doing the propane indicated the configuration they are putting in would have a capacity 15k btu's over the gen's max load demand & push a 13-14 inch water column (gen calls for 11-12") while still handling the gas furnace demands (our emergency heat source - heat pump is primary).  The regulators don't get swapped out until the inspector approves the line & placement.



Actually it is pretty clean. The fins got moved a bit by ice over the years making various portions present slightly different angles even though not flattened enough to block air flow. Light hits those areas in different ways, sometimes showing the gap between fins & sometimes the upper edge of fins.


Nick

The book says every 200 hours. I don't see why you would need to do it any more often than that, and even that is a very conservative number. I've never gone over 200 hours a year. The longest I've ever had to run is 4 days straight and even that year I didn't go over 200 hours.

I do lovingly maintain it once a year, in the late Fall, and keep spares on hand. The XYL says it's mission critical.

I try to keep the 1Kgal tank above halfway, and if really bad weather is forecast I'll call the propane company and get it topped. The $30 delivery charge is well worth the peace of mind. However you can run the generator manually, say morning, noon and evening, for heating, pumping water and showering, etc. If you do it that way you can really stretch the fuel supply quite a ways. I calculated I could get 30 days easy out of a full tank that way.

I like being independent of a utility. A lot of people hook their generators to a natural gas line. However their have been many cases of widespread outages taking NG pumps down and then you've got nothing.

I need to get like a 6KW, portable diesel generator as a tertiary back up. I can set up an interlock on a subpanel I have, just in case of a main generator casualty.

<crickets>  
still waiting on mechanicals inspector...  
<crickets>

Nick

Mechanicals inspector came by this morning, but looks like it will be tomorrow before the propane guy can get back out to finish his part...

More as the job progresses

Nick

Hang in there. In my case it was a month of a little bit of work, wait for the inspector, pause. Lather, rinse, repeat. The generator guy said just getting permits takes a month. From contract signing to getting the keys handed over took three months. Dude puts in over 100 units a year so he has got this down to a science.

Looking back over this thread I see that I fat fingered a key when I discussed maintenance. I meant to change the oil ever 4 days rather than 3. Intent is for 100 hour oil changes. In a piston engine aircraft the oil change is every 100 hours. That has been drilled into me for over 35 years and I'm not going to change. Conservative? Yes and I'm good with it.

The saga continues...

Phase 2(b).  The propane folks came back out to finish up their portion of the install.  With the new line installed & inspected, now they can update the existing regulators and add the generator supply regulator.  The old regulators were working OK, but the tech suggested updating any over 12 years old. Since they were only $50 each, I felt it good insurance.

Replacing the regulator at the tank:



At the house side of the supply line a "T" is added to the line below the new regulator to connect the generator feed:



At the generator, a support is hammered in for the regulator and a connection is made to the generator incorporating a flexible line to handle the vibration while the unit is running.  The flex line, supplied with the generator, is installed as a straight section, a bend is not permitted.



The new regulator gets attached to the flex line and the support post. A cut-off valve sits between the supply line and the regulator.



With all connections made, the lines are pressurized and the joints soap tested.  One connection needed to be tightened.  A gauge is connected to to the regulator and the lines pressurized to 10 lb. and monitored to check for any leak in the old, buried, supply line.   Everything is OK.



At this point, all that remains is for the Generac tech to come out for the initial system startup.  He will take care of system activation, programming the set points, etc.   That has been scheduled for day after tomorrow.



Nick

You have to pay for regulator maintenance? My gas company owns those and they are responsible. It's definitely a good idea to have them PM'd every 10 years or so.

We own the tank, it came with the house.  My understanding is that the original owner/builder got it from her father's place & it had maybe 10 years on it before being moved in '94, so the tank regulator had probably 30+ years use while the house regulator about 20.  Seemed like a good idea to start fresh while the guys were doing some work anyway.

Nick

The only thing I would look at would be a valve at the t feeding the generator and house. If a leak pops up between the gen and the t, you will be able to keep the gas on to the house until it is fixed.

This reminds me I have not heard back about purchasing the 30k portable generator from work.

All done.  Tech came out today, installed the battery & MobileLink unit, and plugged in the activation code.

Exercise period set for weekly (10A on Saturdays), initial changeover set at 15 seconds rather than the default 5 seconds at my request (we get a fair number of short term dropouts when weather is dicey).

Did a simulated power out (utility breaker on switch turned off), house switched to gen. power in less than 30 seconds.  5 ton heat pump was on a 5 minute lockout at switchover.  Lowered the thermostat inside so it would come on for cooling asap & it cranked up as expected as soon as the lockout timed out. (UPS's chirped at heat pump start-up, indicating a momentary voltage dip - but immediately went back to normal wall power).  Could not hear any real difference in the engine whether the heat pump was running or not.

Utility power was turned back on at the switch, there was about a 3-5 second delay & the switch relays fired to change back utility power.  Generator continued to run a little bit for cool-down then shut off.

There is a 25 hour break in period for the generator, at which point oil & filter get changed. If exercise + outages don't get 25 hours in the first year, a change is done anyway.   After that it is done annually or @ 200 hr intervals, whichever comes first.

ETA:  Forgot to mention,  valve lash adjustment is called for @ 25 hours, then @ 400 hour intervals.  A significant item to keep the warranty in effect....


Nick

3600 when running but mostly 1950 during no load excercise periods to reduce noise and fuel consumption.  

Nick

DO NOT EXCERCISE AT 1950 ...you need heat to dry out the gen head after a week of high hudimenty..

It is not a user modifiable parameter, as best I know, being a standard controller preset. According to the docs, the system controller starts the unit and runs it at 3600 for 10 seconds, 2400 for 30 seconds then cuts back to 1950 for the last portion of the 5 minute exercise period.  The big air cooled units have shorter exercise periods than the smaller units.

Nick

This is how it looks now with everything filled in:



The dark area is were the exhaust fan cooked the grass.  Probably need to do some marble chips or stone there ...





Nick