He knows I am more than likely picking up my first HF rig at Dayton and it's a QRP rig. I have another buddy that I
Is old school and openly calls people like me 'Appliance Operators" because I'm getting wowed by a gadget filled radio that I can't fix and don't know how it works, and to make matters worse, it's only a QRP radio. He's saying I have to have a minimum of 100w to even be heard reliably, and when I told my buddy about it he said that after SHTF power won't mean a whole lot because few HAMs will have grid power to run their radios with 500w amps anyway.

I know a lot of EMCOM oriented HAMs have good backup power, and those guys will still be able to get out, but would you guys agree that the bands will be less crowded and QRP more viable after a grid down event?

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9228945/ns/technology_and_science-wireless/t/ham-radio-operators-rescue-after-katrina/

Generally speaking a 100 watt rig is the best "first rig". QRP rigs can be frustrating with their low power trying to get through the noise and can turn many new-comers to HF off. That said, nothing stopping you from making contacts QRP, just be prepared for some disappointments. Digital modes like PSK and Olivia are tailor made for QRP ops though.
ETA - I think the bands will be more crowded if SHTF. 100 watt rigs can be turned down to lower power settings also.

It's best to own at least one radio that you can fix and that runs off of 12 volts

I personally would not recommend QRP as a first radio.


I'm giving my KX3 to my son mostly because he wants a rig for camping,
But I'm also thinking I may wind up helping him to get a 50-100 watt amp.

Do you have 5 round magazines for your AR15s, or 30s?

This is a good example of why people need to get on the air instead of creating extensive SHTF preplanning for amateur radio equipment and usage.

QRP radios are marginal at good voice communications on the higher bands, and very tough on the lower bands. Marginal antennas just makes it that much worse.

Trying to use the prepper-buzzword "NVIS" for short to midrange voice communications will be extremely difficult at QRP power levels.

CW or digital modes can help your link margin, but at the cost of more equipment, less convenience, and slower throughput.

Noise levels can be just as much of a hindrance as other operators on the air.

Lastly, if there's a continent wide power outage, who are you going to talk to?

I don't think someone needs to be able to do board-level repair on their radio to be able to have emergency communications. They do need knowledge, skill and experience to be able to pick the right tools and techniques to accomplish the communications they need to accomplish. I think making an antenna on the fly is probably going to be vastly more useful for emergency communications than kit building or board level repair. Knowing what bands to use and where to look for frequencies or active nets, and how to operate in a net, how to adjust your radio correctly are all critical skills. Putting connectors on, knowing how to operate a variety of radios, having a good set of basic tools and knowing how antennas work are going to be a lot more useful than digging into the internals of a radio.

The secret to successful QRP operation, especially in a SHTF scenario, is CW. In fact, the theme for this weekend's SKCC Sprint is QRP.

My opinions, YMMV-

1. In general QRP radios are less than optimum as a first HF rig since making phone contacts can be sparse and lead to frustration.  The more the power, then more potential people who can hear you easily and will want to talk to you.  Digital helps but you still have the same issues.

(2) You can always run a 100w setup at QRP outputs but you can't run a QRP setup at 100w.  Power matters when you need to be heard.

c. During an emergency where normal communications are out and Ham is one of the primaries, it is likely the bands will be more busy instead of less.  Other band use increases will be from folks out of the shtf area trying to call in along with all the unlicensed, prepper chuckleheads trying to figure out how to use their stuff for the first time.

IV) The inability to be a radio electronics repair expert to a "gadget filled radio" has zero, zip, nada to do with your ability to operate before and during an emergency situation.  I suspect that the percentage of Ham operators that can open their busted radio, trace out the problem and have the knowledge, skills and parts to affect a repair is in the very low single digits.  Your buddy is the type of obnoxious idiot that drives people out of the hobby.

Agree with all the above, with one correction - SIGNAL matters. Power gets you signal, but antenna (or lack thereof) also makes a big difference.

Something to keep in mind for HF communications - these are linear modes for the most part. Unlike FM, with linear modes signal strength is directly proportional to the quality of the recovered signal. A weaker signal is harder to copy. If you are barely above the noise, not many will be motivated enough to try to work you.

Cannot suggest strongly enough to get a standard power (~100W) radio to learn HF. QRP radio as an adjunct once you get the hang of things.

No argument here, I was just addressing the transceiver output issue and knew someone would come along to address antennas.

I'm knowingly in the minority but the 817 was my first HF rig and I learned more about radio with that rig than I ever could have with a higher power rig.

Phone on 5w was extremely frustrating...at first.  I was forced to to learn how to use the menus and dials to "dig out" signals and likewise be heard.  Digital is where is really shined and again, the lack of power forced me to use every watt as efficiently as possible.

I currently run a 897 and it seems easy by comparison.  Moar power is definitely moar easier but the 817 still comes out in the shack when I want to brush up on skills.

I'm not a rag chewer so I don't spend alot of time on phone.  The greatest fun with radio is that YOU get to decide on where to take it.  Prepping is what got me started in radio.  Using the 817 are a starting point, my hobby is creating and testing different ways to operate while camping.  My current setup which is nearly complete uses a 24-hour pack that carries my radio, antenna, accessories to get me on the air, sleeping hammock, Kelly Kettle and room for a few MRE's, Mtn House and some clothes.  As long as I have water to boil and can find food, I can do almost indefinitely out of that pack.

Lastly for SHTF, everyone is correct that moar power is better...except that moar power requires larger batteries whereas the 817 can run off of AA batteries.

Bottom line is that you need to ask a simple question: What do I want to get out of radio.  If you're looking for a shack radio, get something like a FT-450D.  It's 100w, has good filtering and is fairly easy to get contacts.  However, if you're the stubborn type who learns best by doing with one hand tied behind your back, the 817 is a great radio.

Well said, dispatch55126!  ^^^^

I have similar experience with my first rig being an IC-703+.    OP - 100w for first rig is a LOT easier, then get a QRP radio later.  

get a decent 100 watt HF rig

QRP is like deer hunting with Keltech 380

don't expect results, unless you have a really good antenna, and CW ( morse code skills)

100 watts is like a rifle . . .  you will put food on the table

Look for a clean used IC-718, FT-450, TS-480, etc.
a 25 amp power supply
a antenna tuner, if it's not internal

and build a dipole

I started with QRP and it stunted my growth as a ham for a decade.

I think a 50W radio (if they made them) would be OK, maybe even 30W, but QRP (5W) just doesn't cut it.
It's hard to know what works and what doesn't when even your best signal and best practices are heard by
a tiny percentage of stations.

100W is the way to go. If you want learn QRP, you can dial the power back and when you're ready, buy a QRP rig.

I just got of the phone with my son and I'm sending him a QRP radio
(he wants a radio he can take camping, and he knows CW)

Though the radio is a QRP radio he understands the limitations
and is planning on getting at least a 50 watt amp in the future.

And as others have said a good antenna is key to your success

My first HF rig was an FT-817. Yes, it was fun, and yes, I learned a good deal about operating, but the main thing I learned was that I was not very likely to be heard when trying to make a contact. It can be pretty demoralizing.

I still have one QRP rig  - a KX3 - and I like it,  but a little more power is your friend, especially if you live in an antenna restricted area as I do.

Cheers...   Jim

FWIW I had a couple of naysayers tell me I'd never be able to work DX with 30 watts.

I'd have to dig and count and think but I'm fairly certain I have made DXCC with a PRC 320.

You have to see something for what it is.

In a true SHTF scenario with the grid down  Think: No power and no way to refuel a generator. You have to have an alternative source of power. Solar, a hand generator, SOMETHING!

While there are other choices out there, the PRC 320 does fit the bill. It can be run off of solar or a hand generator and will basically do the job.

While a whole roof full of solar panels and a super station would be a lot better you do have to remember that half a loaf is a lot better than none.

100w for sure.  You dont have to run it at 100 but if you need it its there.

Prosise

I have. The first time I fired up the PRC-320 I talked to Hungary.  That was with the whip antenna.

I only run my home rig with 30 watts max, and I have talked to the world.

Now 30 watts is a whole lot different that 5.  I thought QRP was 5 watts.



 

I'm newly licensed, so take this opinion for what it's worth.
If youre talking CW, QRP will be an entirely different world compared to phone.
JM.02

I have a 10 watt QRP rig in my truck that i make contacts with all the time and i run it portable alot, it wasnt my first HF rig i have 2   100 watt rigs . I get bored some times with the 100 watt rigs , i have a good antenna and like to play QRP. Get a 100 watt rig first it doesnt have to be a new one  and learn as much about antenna's as you can and dont be afraid to build your own antenna's and  experiment a lot ,  thats a big part of ham radio

As far as being able to service your radio, except for simple problems, this is no longer practical for most modern radios. With the rare exceptions of the Elecraft K1 and K2 and a few other rigs, surface mounted microcircuits and components are the current state of the art. Problems generally are solved by replacing circuit boards and either junking the old ones of sending them back to the factory.

Even the K1 and K2 use microcircuits in a few places, but they are at least socket mounted.

As a beginner, go with a 100 Watt radio and learn to make your own antennas. As said before, you can turn the power down if you want to play in the QRP sandbox. But believe me, the first time you hear Japan, South Africa, or India come back to your five watts, you'll experience a thrill that you will remember forever.

Later on, if you want to try your hand at building a radio, consider the Elecraft K1. It uses thru-hole components and is a viable stand-alone rig, especially if the internal automatic antenna tuner board is installed. However, since it does involve a considerable investment, it would be best to tackle an small, inexpensive transmitter at first, just to get the feel of kit construction.

Here are some DIY antenna links for your future reference:
Dipole antennas explained: www.arrl.org/files/file/Technology/tis/info/pdf/9106023.pdf
Fan Dipole: http://www.hamuniverse.com/multidipole.html
Off-Center-Fed (Windom) Dipole: http://www.buxcomm.com/windom.htm
Loaded Dipole (for restricted spaces): http://www.k7mem.com/Electronic_Notebook/antennas/shortant.html
More than you probably wanted to know about antennas, transmission lines, and propagation: http://www.hamuniverse.com/n4jaantennabook.html

To me QRP= fun hobby.  

I have been trying to use winmor with an 817 for the last month.  It sucks balls.  

HF radio to email is an important part of my preps, If I ever need to use it I will not be using a QRP radio.

I hunted down and bought a TR4C and PS, tuned them up, learned how to operate them, bought spare tubes and diodes, and then put in storage.

Easy to work on and bullet-proof.

I still want a 20W portable with PC interface and SSB for remote digi work.

For me, if you are going to the trouble to have a SHTF setup, you need to be able to handle any mode.

Yes, there are very few radios you can service yourself anymore.

Power... to operate the rig and power output, I'll talk both here.

First, after a widespread power outage, and we had those after Hurricanes Katrina/Rita, and Gustav/Ike, there were
few stations on the air, commercial or otherwise.  There were no wireless routers, switching power supplies, street
lights, all of those sources of interference.  The AM broadcast band was silent, but for a few stations.  There were
some spots you could hear a carrier, the transmitter up and running via generator (for the time being), but no signal
from the studio to transmitter.  If you tuned between stations, cranked RF Gain and volume all the way up, put your
ear right to the speaker, you could barely hear far off lightning crackle.  

80 and 40 meters were similar, very quiet.  20 meters had a soft "shhhhhh" noise and a few stations far away.

Noise... I found most noise is QRM... man-made noise.  We have met the enemy and it is us.

Under those conditions 10-20 watts would work well.  But still, 100 w goes the distance.

The main thing an amp does for you is get you up over the noise floor.  I use an amp when calling a net on 75 m
in the evening, but really, not used nor needed on any other band.  100 w suffices for all else.  I have checked into a
net 600 miles away during the day on 20 meters with a QRP rig at 5 w, and received a 5-7 signal report.  I was using
an 80 m OCFD at about 40' high.  But I would not count on that.  

From experience, with my portable antennas and a 100 w HF rig, I know I can work coast to coast on 20 m and higher
during the day, and out to 500-1000 miles with good reliability on 40 m day and well into the evening.

So what, off the grid?  Many of us have made preparations for that.  Here is a write up I did of a Statewide Emergency
Test.  I operated two radios, a VHF rig on 2 m at 55 watts FM, and a HF rig at 100 w SSB phone on 75 and 40 meters.  
We arrived with the 55 AH AGM battery with a full charge, and when we left, the battery still had a full charge, maintained
with solar panels.  

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_22/682944_Statewide_Simulated_Emergency_Test_this_weekend.html

No grid power was part of the test scenario.  We were told to operate from anything except the grid... car/truck battery,
a separate battery, generator, or other source.

It's been asked... "Jup, why didn't you just buy a 100 w solar panel?"  

Answer:  A single 50 w is enough for one HF or one VHF/UHF transceiver.  But also, two 50 w panels, which measures
appx 2' x 2' each panel, is much easier to handle, transport, store, than a 100' panel 2' x 4'.  And less likely to be damaged.
The cost was not that different between two 50 w panels and one 100 w panel.

It's not that you can't make a contact with low power.

Longer range contacts on higher bands are often easier with lower power that shorter range contacts on the lower bands. "DX" is not the test. The test is whether you can contact who you need to at will. Try working say a state QSO party during the daytime on 80 meters with QRP on voice.


10-20 watts would work well, for someone else to talk to you. But for you to talk out of the disaster zone, the people you're trying to work will not have that advantage on lack of noise.

I keep an old yaesu FT-7 around for situations like that, and a second FT-7 as a backup to that though I might sell one of them soon (maybe on ee)   They have low power requirements, easy to work on, simple to use, and about 15 watts out and punchy audio.    

I have worked NZ and AUS on the thing on both 20 and 10 meters, and a lot of other DX in Europe and South America including Croatia on 40... I operate QRP whenever band conditions permit, but do have higher power options if need be but with a decent antenna they suffice.  I have resonant antennas on most bands which is more important than power.  

I keep the FT-7 on a 55ah AGM and it lasts me quite a long time on a charge though I haven't actually measured how long.

For my take QRP is only good for CW and some of the digital modes.

For a SHTF situation wrap your head around this. You're in the bad place. Grid is down and as Jup says the noise level is down also. Cool except you want to communicate to the good place where the event didn't happen. Grid is up and noise level is up there, and going QRP you have a chance that you would be buried in the noise like any other day. What will occur when the grid is down is that with the low noise level you may hear stations you wouldn't otherwise.

I can testify to what Jup said about the noise level after the storms. I wasn't a ham then but listening to the broadcast receiver I could tell that I was pulling in stations that I never heard before. Especially on AM at night.

Part of my homebrewing gig is to have a rig I can fix. If I can understand each stage, etch the printed circuit board, solder in everything, get it aligned, and have it work, then if it breaks I can surely fix it.

Really curious about this.  Where are you located?  

I use my 817 routinely for Winmor, hell it's damn near a dedicated Winmor radio most of the time.  What is your operating environment, noisy, etc?   I've honestly been stunned at my Winmor success with the 817 both in Kansas and also on a recent trip to CA.

To the OP, I have an IC-7200, an 857D and the 817ND.  I love the 817ND,it goes everywhere I go, the IC-7200 is a very nice base and semi-portable but, if I had to pick one and leave two, I'd keep the 857D hands down.  It is portable enough to do everything portable that I need (of course it has both a weight and power consumption compromise to consider) but that 100 watts does occasionally come in very handy.

As the solar cycle continues to declines QRP will be very much like an exercise in futility.  

The high bands will be dead and nobody will hear you on the low bands with 5 watts with the the typical S9 plus noise floor.

QRP operation can be a fun and interesting alternative to high power when goofing off the on HF bands, but for emergency communications it seem just silly to me to use anything less than 100 watts.

Buy a real radio and dial it back to QRP power levels if you must, but don't fool yourself for a minute thinking that you are doing the world a favor by running 5 watts.

All of the heavy lifting is done by the guy on the receiving end, not by the QRP operator.  

It might be easier to summarize the discussion this way - Will you be moving around with your equipment, or are you holing up in your house if things ever go south? If you're static and staying home, get yourself a QRO radio and all the bells and whistles to run it (power supplies, battery banks, amps, whatever). The second you decide to bail out and go mobile, QRP is going to be the best choice - the size and weight of QRP gear makes it a no brainer.

The military has SHTF comms pretty well dialed in and in vehicles and headquarters you're going to find high power equipment, but look at every portable radio made for the last 70 years and you'll be hard pressed to find many that put out anything over 30 watts, and 5-20 watts is probably the most common output. 10-20 watts is very easily accomplished with something like the KX3 or FT-817 with an inexpensive amp.


For what it's worth I own an amp for my FT-817 and have never once needed to use it to make a random contact. If your town gets hit by a tornado and you plan to be the central communication hub, passing official traffic and messages, you really need a QRO radio to do that reliably and efficiently. If your town gets invaded by ISIS and you bug out and hide in the woods to provide brief SITREPs to higher echelon folks so they can rain down fire and brimstone upon the enemy, your going to want the smallest lightest radio available and it will more than likely be QRP.


I'd bet money that if we could time travel back to the 1940's and offer any of our modern commercial radios to the OSS, SAS, Jedburgh teams, resistance, etc. they would choose the KX3 or the FT-817.

The plan is to buy a KX3 and the amp with tuner, I do understand that QRP isn't a sure thing when you need to reach someone- I'm just having a had time trying to imagine where I might need a hundred watts to break into a dogpile a month after the power has gone out.

I worked DX with my milpacks before on a few occasions (thanks contesters), but where they shine is 1 hop continental comms and NVIS which is mainly what you need for emergencies.

I've said for many years there is a very good reason most milpack type radios are about 20W in terms of output power. Its about the best balance between power consumption (yay batteries) and reliable voice/data/CW comms.

I really think when the whole QRP thing was taking off and guys were brewing up tuna can CW rigs it was solely intended as a power limit for CW for which its plenty of power. Then Yaesu had the bright idea to put out an all mode all band rig with 5W only... Everyone since has done at least 10W for QRP radios so you can kinda use voice.

I'm not saying 5W voice is impossible, I have done it many times with my 817, but its not what I would call reliable.

I do this semi regularly with my 817, you mainly need to figure out which stations you can hit at what time of day with the antenna you have (I.e. understand antenna theory and propagation). Also keep messages short as usually its painfully slow with weak signals.

Mostly true. A good antenna on the QRP end does help, but most QRP guys are getting picked up by stations with beams for the most part. Some of my most memorable voice QSO's have been QRP-QRP portable but I can say it was very hard to pull out the other guy in most cases and vice versa.

When you need to over the band noise or when the conditions are bad

Or just talk to someone who isn't interested or capable of digging you out.

You'd be surprised at how much that changes if you have a rare call.


By necessity, much of my learning experience early on in my ham "career" was QRP and I am extremely glad I did with the patient assistance of this forum as well as others in the community who helped me when I was in Afghanistan, like Scott (NE1RD) who wrote the book on the various combinations of the Buddipole and Fred (KE7X) both who patiently emailed me to get the most out of a KX3 on a max of 12W from Afg.

It (QRP) can be like learning marksmanship fundamentals on a .22 target rifle as it forces you to learn how to get the most out of the set-up that you do have. Otherwise, I agree that QRP for a newbie can be frustrating and discouraging while learning the hobby, but in my case that wasn't an issue, since I had nothing better to do than launch 12W into the ionosphere in my off hours whether anyone heard it or not.

Fortunately, a T6 call instills patience and vigor in hams who wish to work a rare or needed call.

I know this is OT, but someone mentions an old radio here and I compulsively start researching and cruising for one on eBay.

Thanks a lot strictlyb, now I have Yeasu FT-7 on my eBay search radar, and I'm really NOT a QRP guy.  

I need to find a 12-step program!

Thats an ass backwards way to think about it IMO. You need to know how to use your equipment, and you need to learn that today, not when the lights go out. Also I find it very very difficult to imagine a real scenario where the power goes out for a month worldwide. Realistically to do alot of work you do need some wattage, sometimes more, sometimes less, it all depends on who you are trying to talk to and what the band conditions are. For the next few years band conditions will be poor and QRP will be generally boned.

Not too worried about antennas or power after SHTF for me, I'm on a corner lot with no trees and a perfect north/south layout for a nice inverted V. Eventually I'll have a panel or two here to keep a set of AGM's full, but if it gets really bad I'll head to my rural property. I out a cabin up last summer and am finishing the interior now. I oriented the building for best solar exposure and have 2635 watts worth of panels waiting to install and I need one more 235w panel to get the right series/parallel combination. I don't see power being an issue and a friend is giving me his tower as he is moving out, 60 feet of Rhone(sp) 45.

I don't know that the radio has to be portable in the sense that most people think of when they talk about little QRP rigs, but I do plan to use a KX3 100w amp as a main rig and am heavily weighting my preference for that radio because of the portability, the receive capability it has, and that it will do a few digital modes without a computer. I really like that the panadaptor will do RTTY and PSK31 via a USB keyboard and decode on the screen, that will be a must have for me. I already have a netbook that runs Linux and operates off of 12V, so standardizing will be easy. Been doing a lot of reading about digital modes and am placing a lot of hopes on them because it sounds like they can be reliable right down to the noise floor for me.

This is a buy once, cry once deal for me, I can't afford an equivalent 100w rig like a K3 if I have a KX3 already in my shack.

Yeah, I understand I coming into HF at a bad time as far as band conditions go. Give me some time, I'll figure out how to run the shit out of my radio. It's been a long time coming for me and I'm looking at it from a hobby standpoint rather than a "I'm getting a cool survival toy that I'm going to sock away in a drawer so I don't break it before I need it" mentality.

That is good attitude to have. But its way more than running your radio, honestly the radio is secondary to understanding antennas, building them, using them etc. as well as understanding propagation. I have a dozen radios, but 90% of my "skill" is in antennas/prop.

Regarding data; yeah it works, but if you really want to be prepared learn CW, it always works, no fancy equipment needed, and lots of folks still know it and use it. Data modes are nice, but they require the other guy to have them, and be good with them as well, plus its extra gear to haul around and yet another possible point of failure (several actually).

30, 40, 80, and 160 Meters are not affected as much by low solar flux as the higher bands. In fact, I just now broke a pileup on PJ76S in Sint Maarten with 4 Watts on 40 CW.
(7.005 if anyone's interested.)

ETA: Just nailed S53A in Slovenia, still at 4 Watts, 7.007.5.
40's hot tonight.

Please don't assume that I don't know ANYTHING about operating a radio-I just need a chance to put it into practice. I had a very good General class over the course of last summer and I know that antennas are everything, more important than power. I just haven't had a chance to apply it to the HF bands yet. When I have trouble getting the results I'm looking for, I have plenty of class materials and people to draw on. Then there's that Internet thing, lol.

I'll get there.

Yeah but for voice its not great. I agree that CW/Data will still be fine on the lower bands. But 5W voice on 40 or 80 lol... The other end of that is for SHTF or whatever most people envision operating portable, those antennas tend to suck to put up since they are big, and most will perform quite poorly (since they will likely be too low).

Low bands and CW - WIN
Lowbands and QRP SSB - FAIL

Add QRP data to the win category.