I got  a letter in the mail yesterday that had my call sign on the envelope, so naturally I assumed it was something congratulatory after making Extra, maybe a pitch to join one of the local clubs.

I assumed wrong.  

It was a letter from the local 2 meter repeater owner saying, "We would appreciate you not transmitting on the output of any of the [XXXX] repeaters as it is against Federal Communications Regulations and guidelines".

That's the meat of it anyway.  There's another confusing sentence calling it an 'illegal transmission' and that it can confuse others.

OK, I know it isn't a nasty letter, but the tone I'm getting from it is certainly pejorative.  I had always thought a quick check on the output freq was the best way to determine whether the parties could switch over to a simplex freq instead, so as to free up the repeater.  Additionally I thought taking the load off the repeater was beneficial.  Talkaround means my 110 watt radio that's only a few miles from the repeater isn't blasting the thing (my radio has only one power setting).  It's not like it's a busy repeater and someone suffered somehow.

So now I'm a little confused.  Illegal?  Why didn't the 'offended' person just pass along a friendly reminder on the air?  When I told another ham friend he responded with a hostile expletive laden rant about crusty old hams sitting around with little else to do.  I'm not inclined to offend them either way, after all it's their repeater, but I cannot help but think there was a better way to handle it all.

Thoughts?

Can you post the letter with relevant detail redacted?

It's hard to understand how it's illegal although I do know that the repeater owner can restrict usage to whomever they would like.

I'll keep my thoughts about the letter to myself. After all, I'm just another no-code extra ruining the hobby.

That said, the only times I would consider/have transmitted on the output frequency was when our repeater was down. I had never considered doing that on a regular basis. IMHO, it's bad form and a violation of the gentleman's agreement band plan. Note I didn't say illegal as I don't know what the FCC regs say.

You can get into the area where these dudes will claim you are interfering with their repeater. Since you're TX/RX is on the output side, someone would have to be within simplex range to get messed with. Better courtesy would be to move to a dedicated Simplex channel, agreed upon by you and the other station.

For the record, your friend is correct. The clubs are comprised of miserable old assholes, who have the social skills of a 13-Year-Old YouTube poster.

If the Club/Owner had a problem, they should have gotten on the air, and brought it up courteously, and professionally.

The longer I'm at this, the more disgusted I've grown with the hams on local repeaters.

The Nice-Guy-to-Dick-Squeezer-Ratio is much higher on HF, or DMR.

The clubs, around here anyway, are the Kiwanis Club, with Handie-Talkies.

You gotta laugh at these miserable, limp-dicked old bastards. Ham Hijinks hit a home-run with this one:

http://hamhijinks.com/local-man-does-in-fact-own-the-frequency/

Unfortunately, the best comedy is grounded in truth.

I'm not one to break the rules or anything, and I'm a pretty low-stress kind of guy (52 years old and hairline in the same place as high school) so I prefer to do the right thing.  I guess my two issues are the tone of the letter and the way it could have been better handled.

As for the rest of the letter, what I provided in the OP is pretty much it.  An opening salutation and a 'Thank you for your cooperation' closing.

You might be guilty or poor repeater etiquette, but I am not sure that you did anything illegal.

Just play nice and use simplex frequencies per the ARRL band plan to avoid any future conflict.  

As far as the letter goes, just let it go and move on.

Post it proudly to your wall of shame and have a good laugh. You aren't really living until you've got your first Official Observer letter/hand smack. Oh, the horror of accidentally not identifying every 10 minutes! The sky is falling! Dogs and cats living together!

In other words: don't worry about it, and don't associate with that "class" of hams.

I thought that if two parties were using a repeater and wanted to determine if they could switch to simplex the parties would listen to the input frequency of the repeater to see if they could hear each other. In fact, some of my radios, if you hit the MONITOR button when tuned on a repeater frequency will monitor the input frequency.

"O-O", sorry, I couldn't resist!

Most areas have a "frequency coordinator" that determines who gets what repeater pair, and what frequencies are designated for a given purpose.

In my area, it's these guys.




Their website has a list of band plans and simplex frequencies.


These guys might be a good place to start if you are in WA.

I wonder if he writes letters to people who use "his" frequency when the bands open up....

Guy is just being a douche. Get you a digital radio and go talk on "his" frequency...

I owe you a beer now.

OMG!!!  Transmitting on a repeater's output frequency for more than three milliseconds will cause the flux capacitors in the repeater's intermodulated discriminator to overload the turbo encabulator, causing a localized black hole.  

I've been a ham for only three years, but I'm hearing more and more inconsiderate and disruptive traffic all the time.  The band police must have had a hiring party, too.

Don't let the letter bug you, But also no need to transmit on the output of the repeater.

The Other Station can listen on the INPUT and if they can hear you then move off to a simplex frequency.


By the way  97.313 Transmitter power standards.

(a) An amateur station must use the minimum transmitter power necessary to carry out the desired communications.

That's how I deal with radio douche bags. P25 works wonders for that.

Mainsail,

I live in the same area, and am curious - which repeater was it?

1) It's not illegal per se. It's bad practice to do so as a common occurrence if the repeater is in normal operation, as you may be interfering with the repeater output which is under automatic control.

2) Amateurs should be well aware of how to do "talkaround" as that is an appropriate operating practice if the repeater is off the air, such as during an emergency.

3) The check of whether simplex is possible is to just listen on the repeater input.

Gold Mtn VHF and I was going through the gate onto Bangor Base.  The guy I was talking to was heading out the gate so yeah, I should have just pushed .52 and cleared the repeater.

My radio has a talkaround feature (push one button on the radio face), but I don't know how to listen to the input freq with that ease.  I have enough trouble driving the truck and pushing the mic button.  

Oh well, lesson learned.  I think they could have handled it better but it's done so time to move on.  

A buddy has tried to nudge me to P25, and I may just have to take him up on that.

I've been wanting an XTS-5000 anyway...

Solid radio. Have one sitting in my collection of /\/\.

Shoot me a message if you have any questions.

Roger that.

Much appreciated.

+1 to what k9bob, harry, and gamma said

most FM ham rigs have a Reverse button to monitor the input

plenty of simplex freqs to use, no need to annoy the repeater owner

....i can just imagine that old bastard, sitting down and writting harsh words
licking a stamp
that's old school pissy  

Commercial/LMR radios have "talkaround" as a normal feature. That's the nature of frequency coordinated and licensed LMR use - mobile simplex uses the output of their licensed repeater pair.

Amateur market radios typically have a "reverse" function which just swaps the TX and RX frequencies so as to easily monitor a repeater input. Amateur radio has frequencies set aside for simplex use so simplex on a repeater frequency is generally bad practice as long as the repeater is in normal operation. There are times when it is appropriate, such as when the repeater is off the air. We were also using simplex on the output (aka talkaround) during an extended power outage when the repeater was on battery backup so as to save battery power, switching to the repeater as needed for additional coverage. The typical amateur operator will not know what the word "talkaround" means unless they have experience in the LMR world.

Most amateurs consider it bad form to criticize someone on a repeater unless it's something that needs immediate attention, at least that's what I've seen in the places I've been. Phone calls or other off-air discussions are more common. The wording of the note could have been handled much more appropriately IMO.

It's a known malicious operating technique for someone trying to cause interference to a repeater to operate simplex on the input or output. The more common expression of that is operating simplex on the input frequency but without the proper squelch tone to access the repeater.

Even though the usual practice is to listen to the input, in your case I would think a quick call on talkaround identified as such would not necessarily be inappropriate. "K1AB from N2CD on talkaround, can you hear me ok?" "N2CD QSY to simplex" for example. Amateurs need to be more aware of simplex operation in general and to know how to use talkaround when it's appropriate so it might be a good learning opportunity. Far too many amateur operators think that simplex is only 146.520.

great post Gama

It doesn't strike me as a smart thing to do.

(especially with 110W)

+1

Nice

I kinda feel for him

I put up an IRLP node for my own personal use and I get e-mails from "users: about it.

I simply tell them if they can hit it they can use it, and No I'm not upping the power or antenna height.

Sometimes being a repeater owner or Trustee can be a pain

Spoken like a true CBer.

Also illegal ....... malicious interference)

Ever heard a joke before?

Also reasons why I use commercial P25 encrypted for 98% of my comms. No butt hurt there.

I also was thinking that that would be malicious interference.

I've never seen the appeal of willfully causing interference

Do you even sarcasm, bro?

Its time for this thread to die or be locked....nothing to see here folks.

Time to move on.

I actually have a place across from Bangor.  If you eve hear the sound of gunfire rolling across the water, it is likely me.  

Sweet.

We've been looking to get out of this rental townhome for a year but the real estate market is so screwed up it may never happen.  

If you see a m1009 with the huge whip give a call out on VHF or UHF common; I'm usually monitoring.

My buddies and I did this. One of them owned the repeater and the gang loved P25. It ran mixed-mode so I'm sure we pissed off more than a few people going digital. We all ran encryption also. Even I'll admit it sounds annoying as hell.

I use some P25 ham. But I was not clear, when I say commercial I mean LMR Part 90 frequencies or P25 trunked systems that I have access to.

I gotcha. I keyed in on the digital part. Not all of us can do commercial band.

Do you own that repeater?

It has it's perks... Just gotta have friends in the right places. You'r own private talk group on several large area trunked systems is priceless.

My buddy does. I haven't been active for several years though.

I also like to post pictures of one of my XTLs on .52 with P25 text next to it and AES encryption turned on.

I think we have successfully derailed this thread....

I encourage the people who use my repeaters to flip to talkaround occasionally and see if they can reach each other simplex. Most radios have a "rev" button for this purpose.


Ask him how it feels to piss up a rope.