Indoor vs remote auto tuners.  Why indoor... ever?
Is there some advantage I'm unaware of to explain the popularity here?
IMO, the base of the antenna is the best place for a tuner.  I'm especially confused with those who chose the indoor tuner before choosing an antenna design.  The remote is far more versatile if you haven't yet decided.  They should be designed together as a single system.  The tuner is part of the antenna.

Why choose the indoor tuner if you did not have an antenna design in mind?

I'm asking because the indoor tuner is very popular on this site (SOP) and I don't understand why.  Some antenna don't need a tuner at all (usually limited bandwidth).  I can't think of a design where an indoor is better than a remote auto tuner or even a band specific antenna and no tuner.  Cheaper too.

Obviously I chose a remote auto tuner.  Icom IH4? (On 1 antenna, 2 others are single band, no tuner).  My only indoor tuner is manual.  I just use it as a meter and antenna switcher.

Thoughts?

Remote auto tuners have only become available recently. It'll take a while for them to work their way into the market.

Besides, in-shack manual and automatic tuners have worked well for years. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Another problem is that outside tuners are more susceptible to lightning damage unless disconnected when things get nasty.

Doesn't impedance mismatch cause significant coax loss?  The indoor tuner only fixes what the radio see's.  If you had the tuner at the other end of the coax you will have much less line loss. = More contacts with the same antenna/coax.

It's been wasting a lot of signal for years.  I don't understand why so many new hams get them and why they are recommend.

Why not just use a resonant antenna?

I do, two of them and a remote on a 3rd.  That's what I recommend if someone can't afford the remote.  Less loss and cheaper.


I see a lot of these here... magic antenna with no radials or counterpoise, over priced balun or phony coil choke, huge coax loss due to mismatch, insufficient coax with indoor tuner = Recipe for silence.

Antenna should have a counterpoise, properly matched to the coax and coax loss minimized.  Remote tuner does that.  Indoor does not.

It depends on the feedline loss and antenna SWR at the working frequency.  Very lossy coax and very high SWR does cause a great loss.  If your antenna is even remotely close though, it doesn't cause a noticeable loss.

There are several calculators like this available on the web.

http://www.arrg.us/pages/Loss-Calc.htm

You are still going to have loss in the tuner, doesn't matter if it is remote or not. Sure the remote tuner will have less loss, but loss is only one of the factors that comes into consideration. No single tuner will be the end all solution to everything.

Personally I have an LDG KT-100. My antenna is resonant and I just use it to clean up little edges of the band.

If you are so concerned about loss why run coax at all? Why not run twin lead to everything, why stop there when you can mount your entire transmitter at the feed point of the antenna?

Separate issue.  Huge difference in loss on the coax between the two tuners.
Why recommend lossy systems to beginners?  I also use open wire, hardline and Rg6/8/11where appropriate.  Coax can be had to the same spec as open.

My Hamnet does place the transmitter at the antenna.  Right tools for the job.  

There is nothing an indoor tuner does better except turn your coax into a heating coil.

Cost seems to be the driving factor for the choice of tuners at the radio vs remote tuners at the antenna.  

Many new hams will put up a store bought G5RV and something like an LDG external tuner because it gives them the ability to get on the air quickly and cheaply.  

New hams that have little or no antenna experience look for the simple "plug and play" approach as opposed to building a more efficient or resonant antenna system.

A remote tuner may be more efficient, but the lack of experience certainly plays into the new ham decision on what to buy.

I've done the math, I think most new buyers have not.  More than 60% - 90% loss is common on most bands, leaving only small openings with less loss. It usually results in the complete loss of many bands that a remote tuner could match.

1 7/8" hard line could over come the loss but these same setups usually involve at least 100' or RG8x or even RG58/9!

Most of these people would be stunned if they did the math.

60% loss with common coax.  Worse as you get farther away from resonance until you hear nothing.

As a friend once told me, RF has to go somewhere.....but not understanding how antennas work often means that most of that RF doesn't actually radiate much of a signal.  

A dummy load will present a perfect match, but it certainly doesn't make much of an antenna for communications either.  

14:1...What are you trying to tune?  A lawn chair?  

I agree that if you plan to use a tuner with a random chunk of metal, including non-resonant verticals, that the tuner should be at the base.

Got a dipole or vertical with a 3 or even 5:1 SWR with some halfway decent coax, don't worry about it.

No joke 14:1? My dipole's worst point is 3:1, I  also only have to use 50' of LMR400. Here is a more realistic mis match


image upload free

A resonant dipole/vertical is much cheaper, nor does that explain why almost everyone here recommends them to beginners.  Why recommend an indoor tuner when a cheap dipole will get them on the air today, better, for less money?
Why recommend a $1,000 radio then no budget on the antenna?

Tuner needs to be thought of as part of the antenna, not the coax.

Really?  On all bands?  Amazing... Magical even.

Or is that all you see at your end?  After the swr loss?

I guess I was wrong.  Indoor tuners work better.  Continue to recommend them to beginners.

Nvmd.

Its the "plug and play" mentality......too many guys just want to buy their way into ham radio and have no desire to learn or build anything.

Unless you have some real world experience you only know what you have read. Lots of radio "snake oil" has been sold over the years when it comes to antennas.

Many new hams  entered into the hobby and have done nothing more than memorize question pool in order to get licensed and have no real clue how radio actually works. These new hams lack having the sage advise of a more experienced mentor or "ELMER" to show them the correct way to do things.

So what brought up this thread?  Did you have a recent "face palm" experience with a new ham recently concerning antenna tuners?

Money best spent would be on a chunk of coax, an antenna analyzer, and a spool of wire.

I never said 1 antenna would transmit on every freq under the sun. My dipole has been tested in its installed location at the feed point and at the radio with a VNA. I have a 40m OCFD and 20m Vertical (with 15m element). I don't work 80m from home which sucks but I don't have the real estate.

No one is saying that indoor tuners work better. But you keep talking about beginners, what is the cheapest remote matching unit going for? I can bet it is orders of magnitude more then an indoor one. How many can be powered by a bias T or do I have to install?

Why not just recommend a resonant antenna and good feedline?

Your topic is  "Indoor vs remote auto tuners. Why indoor... ever?" People are giving you reasons why.

+ 1000

the best place for a tuner, is in the closet, collecting dust,  because you have resonant antennas

....

This seems to be getting a bit contentious, but my 2¢ is thus - I have built in autotuners, indoor manual T-network tuners, and one SGC auto-coupler.  I use  and have used all different kinds of antennas though I tend to favor the non-resonant for multi band use.   Each tuner has its place.   The SGC is great in the field to feed random wires but I would be willing to bet that in and of itself it is the most lossy of any of the antenna tuners I use.   In an effort to reduce weight and complexity, as I prototype parts of my all in a carry on station,  this  field day I'm going to be trying some new things and the remote coupler doesn't fit in.   In fact, if things go well it will be the rig's built in autotuner at one end, the antenna at the other, and a big ol' chunk of RG-8X in between.    Yeah there might be a couple dB loss in the coax and  that's just the way it goes sometimes.    Oh, it will be safely connected to a battery the whole time.

Why not use a resonant antenna?  

Because I want to work more frequencies.  You cannot work the whole 80 meter band with 2:1 SWR or less.  

It's a close call on 40 meters.

I can work other bands that are not just off a little... for example, with my 75-40-20 m fan dipole I can also work
60, 30, 17, 15, 12, and 10 meters.  I would need a lot more wire to do that with resonant antennas.

I suppose one downside to the remote tuner is having to run the cable out to interface with the tuner. Not only do you have to run the coax but a couple wires to power and signal the tuner. Internal tuners are also handy for portability.

In any case vary situations call for different solutions. Please don't attack others for simply offering a different opinion.

Exacty!

Another way do this is to use a dirt simple 24 ft long vertical,  with a metal fence counterpoise. (It turns out that a typical long metal fence is only a dB or 3 down in performance from a real full on radial field.)  It's easy to MODEL or MEASURE the input Z.

Choose your coax type and length, plug those numbers into a loss calc, like my favorite ----> http://www.ac6la.com/tldetails.html ,  and now you know your CABLE LOSS.

A bottom line ---> 24 ft antenna, 4:1 Unun, 40 ft LMR400 coax, and < 1 dB coax loss.  Homebrew T-tuner in the shack  < 0.8 dB.   (Model the tuner loss with this fun app ---->  http://fermi.la.asu.edu/w9cf/tuner/tuner.html

If you can get the coax length down (50 ft or so max for LMR 400), it doesn't get much simpler or cheaper to have a decent all band, all frequency, low loss 40M - 10M system, with the cheap-assed tuner in the shack.

Why don't I use a remote tuner ?


First of all, let's dispel the myth that the one and only feedline is coax.
Wrong
I have been a ham for 35 years or so and have NEVER had a permanent HF antenna installed at my house that used coax as a feedline.

Ok, I have only one HF antenna; just as I have only had one HF antenna for the past 35+ years. And throughout this time, I have used several different actual antennas, but they have all been of exactly the same design, and dimensions. The antenna hanging in my yard today, is at it's heart the same antenna I used to make my first QSO in 1979
Despite the bullshit you hear about antennas, my antenna is neither high, nor is it resonant on any particular ham band, nor is it on a tower. The transmission line doesn't match the feedpoint impedence. I don't even know what the feedpoint impeadence is. I have to use a tuner 100% of the time. I use this ONE wire antenna on all bands from 160 meters through 6 meters. It also probably doesn't have any gain.
Yet, I have over 190 countries confirmed, WAS on five bands with the ARRL certificates, as well as over 2/3s of the US counties confirmed.  I read every day that my antenna couldn't possibly work, yet I have QRP DXCC (with the certificate). I have also worked all continents including Antarctica (no certificate).

So I guess my antenna is working OK, again, despite stuff I read everyday telling me what I need for an antenna to work. If I didn't know any better and actually listened to the stuff I read, I would have never gotten on the air at all because I would really think my antenna couldn't possibly work at all.


In my particular case, I can't see any realistic way of me using a remote tuner nor do I think it would offer me any advantage at all over the tuner I am using which is located indoors.
First of all the feed point of my antenna is 30 feet in the air (yeah, I know, it couldn't possibly work that low) and it is not attached to anything. My antenna is suspended by the ends of the antenna only. In other words, the only way I could be using a remote antenna tuner would be if it was attached to the feedpoint of my antenna and then the antenna itself supported the weight of the tuner. I suppose I could run the feedline to the ground and then use a remote tuner, but the remote tuner would be sitting about five feet away from where my indoor tuner is sitting now.

That is why I can't physically use a remote tuner, the reason why it wouldn't offer any advantage what so ever over my indoor tuner goes back to feedline.
I am not using coax.
I just used that calculator posted earlier to see how much loss I would have in my feedline, worst case. At 30 mhz, with a 100:1 SWR, if I put 100 watts in I get just over 38 watts out.

Am I saying I have a great antenna ?
No.
Am I saying I found some magical antenna ?
No.
Am I saying that my antenna couldn't be improved upon ?
No.

What I am saying is that you don't have to have an antenna that conforms to everything "they" say in the books to work. And by work, I mean the ability to work any station in the world. And to do it without running a lot of power.
Too many people get caught up in thinking that if they don't have the ideal antenna, they can't possibly make contacts. People get way to caught up in equations and books.

Got to go with K9-Bob here.

It's a trade-off between cost, convenience, complexity, knowledge and performance. Most people want the easy answer. And for many people the easy answer nets them a level of performance they are happy with.

However ignorance is bliss. I'm still on an all band antenna kick, much like 444. I've run at least 6 different "all band" setups to date. So far the absolute best performers were the two that had the tuner right at the feedpoint. To do this I had to work around 444's current limitation, which is that the wire antenna has no appropriate center support. My work around was to put the feedpoint at the peak of my roof and mount the tuner to the side of the house there. It's not too high, but it works better than a higher, non-resonant antenna with a more distant tuner (Best antenna I ever had, actually. It's an 80M OCFD using a grounded DX Eng. 4:1 balun and an MFJ-998RT right at the balun. Beautiful local performance on 80/60/40 as it is low, not bad for EU DX on 40 and up due to the funny lobes I get again from being so low. With the tuner I get all bands except 160 and 12. I even get 60!).

I am starting to head down the road to resonant antennas. I'm planning a dedicated 40M vertical delta loop, which I hope to execute later in the year sometime.

As a relatively new ham (nov 2014 - Extra in March) I ca tell you that for a lot of us, money is the deciding factor. I am still learning about antennas under the guidance of a few elmers, but I still want to get on the air fast, and cheap. Better antennas have some and will keep coming, but when I first got on HF, I had a limited budget.

LDG RT-600 remote tuner =$450

LDG Indoor Autotuners for most trancievers =$150 - $170

This is why..

I don't have 450-500 to drop on an Autotuner... $159.99 for my 857's Autotuners... Yes

Why do I use an indoor tuner?  Because my antennas are indoors.  


OK seriously,  I use the tuner in my rig with three different antennas in my attic. The feed line is DXE 400MAX (like LMR-400).  My primary antenna is a 20m dipole that tunes nicely on 12, 15, and 17 meters. It tunes on 30 meters, but doesn't seem to be super efficient on that band (think lower 48). I also use the tuner with a dedicated 10m dipole (it's a pretty big band), and a 6 meter omni antenna (also a big band).  And finally, on occasion, I use the tuner in my rig with a portable EARCHI end-fed antenna.  So it would take at least three, and maybe even four, remote tuners to replace the tuner in my rig.  

It's far from perfect, but I have made  quite a few contacts with those antennas, over the past 2 1/2 years.  DXCC (about 150 total countries), Triple Play, WAS on W1AW/P, and over 20,000 points in the ARRL centennial challenge.  

If I ever have the opportunity to set up a permanent outdoor antenna (vertical, tower/beam, etc.) for my radio activities, I  will likely look into using a remote tuner.  But for now, I'm doing OK.

I should point out that I don't consider my antenna or the way it is mounted to be a limitation.
I own 12 semi-rural acres. I am not wealthy but I do OK.
I could put up any antenna I wanted to within reason.

I have the antenna I do because it is what I want. I have many years of ham radio experience. I have used all kinds of antennas. I have seen all kinds of fadish antennas come and go. I don't believe they offer me anything above and beyond what I am using now. The antenna I am using has been a common antenna in ham radio for close to 100 years and can be found in every ARRL Handbook that has ever been published.

Will I ever put up any other antennas ?
Yes. But I will probably always be using an antenna identical to what I have used for the last 35 years in addition to the others.


In answer to the original question, are their advantages to an indoor tuner ?  Yes. If you want to run legal limit power.

Too Low an SWR Can Kill You

good read, and a seemingly valid point.

The bottom line is that most of us use a compromise antenna of some sort.  

RF has to go somewhere...... so the best we can hope for is more RF radiating from the antenna as opposed to RF being reflected back to the transmitter.

Will High SWR Blow Up My Transmitter ?

Another Look at Reflections

So much good stuff that most hams today have no clue about.

Written by a legend of ham radio, Walt Maxwell, W2DU

my inside tuner lets me work 80m - 10m with just a 130ft dipole.  I get multiple bands and tons of countries.

It's a very valid point, especially if your antennas require climbing to adjust.

I took an hour to adjust the dacron supporting one side of my 160m OCF to get it clear of the top of a dogwood, and the 30m dip got WORSE (needs to be longer now).

I did it cause I went QRO and figured I didn't want any wires touching any trees.

Then I almost went back out and adjusted the antenna again, but I stopped and realized it was still 2 or less for all of 30m.

I'll let the tuner have some power and find something else to work on.

I was wondering when this was posted if this was brought up because of the article in the June 2015 issue of QST Magazine on page 30 entitled, "Don't Blow Up Your Balun".

For anyone interested in this subject, this would be a good article for you to read.

Pay particular attention to the table at the top of page 35.

It's not expensive.
Far more ideal solution compared to the balun/mismatching/choke/hope solutions with the indoor tuner.  Using your coax as a dummy load heater due the mismatch.



SGD-239, $179

That is one of the best articles about antennas and feedlines ever posted. I have reflections 2 and 3. They are my go to books for antennas and working out problems. It is an lost art.

If you want to watch an antenna "guru's" heads explode ask about re-reflected power.

Best value, highest performance non-QRO tuner you can get. I loved mine before I went QRO. It'll run 100W CW making it very good for digital. I put mine in a plastic electrical box and mounted it at the antenna feedpoint. I used an MFJ bias tee to run the power down the coax, but you can also run a separate power cable if you want.

+ a million.  "Reflections III" from Walt Maxwell (which includes the fantastic articles linked above) has caused so many lightbulbs to click on in my brain, it isn't even funny.  Also, Alan Wolke's YouTube channel, W2AEW, has numerous practical demonstrations that can help you visually and intuitively understand what happens in feedlines.

 




Regarding remote tuners, I can understand a bit of additional cost, but the current differences border on ridiculous.  I put my LDG AT-7000 in a Seahorse case with a couple of rechargeable dessicant packs.  A friend gave me 100' of shielded Cat 6 cable that I use as the control cable.  Works beautifully for Field Day.  It could be beefed up a tad for permanent installation.















 

It's true.  There is a huge efficiency advantage using the tuner at the base of the antenna.

I choose the ICOM IH4 for compatibility with the IC7200.  

Already waterproof case.  $249

Here's a pic of how I packaged my SG-239 for continuous outdoor use. I bought the tuner used on qth.com. This was so much less expensive then any other remote tuner solution, not to mention having higher performance than other remote tuners.

I brought out flying leads which I connect to the antenna with wire nuts, however you could do the usual thing with some screws/nuts/washers to make a "terminal". To me that's a lot of extra work and the damn things always come loose on the inside, then the rotation breaks the sealant and it leaks, etc., etc.

You could also forego the bias tee by running a dedicated power/control wire out there. The biggest advantage of doing this is that you can build a "Smartlock" controller for the tuner that will let you reset it or put it in a "hold" mode. The hold mode is useful if your long wire is blowing around in the wind and VSWR is changing. I was lazy and didn't want to run the extra wire even though I already had a Smartlock from a previous installation.

The little ferrites worked very well as a choke.

Back to the OP's original question...

Not many years ago there were exactly THREE manufacturers of outdoor / remote / at the antenna tuners.  

Many old hams are Luddites, want their big manual tuners, IF, that is IF they use a tuner at all.  I know some
that will not use a tuner.  They are worried about less than a db of loss in the tuner.  Yes, that limits them on
what frequencies they can work.

Worse, there are those that use tuners that cannot believe an automatic tuner can get them as good results
as what they can twiddle knobs to achieve.  You do know, don't you, that there is more than one tuning
solution with the typical C-L-C tuner, and some of those solutions ARE lossy and may result in arcing inside
the tuner even without excessive power input.

There is no practical way to have a manual tuner outdoors up on the antenna, so that means all remote
tuners will necessarily be automatic.

Now you see the problem.  Remote auto tuners are just now getting to be popular... no, that's not the right
word... just now getting to be accepted.  

So this is why everyone doesn't use a outdoor tuner now.  Yes, I think it is a superior setup.  No, I don't think
I'm hurting my signal to any significant degree by having an indoor tuner.

The AH-4 has been around for a long time

I installed one in the back corner of my ford ranger about 15 years ago

I'd switch between a 102" and 40m hamstick
It worked pretty well with my ic-706mkiig

When i bought my house, I zip tied it to a tree, ran a long wire up and over to another big tree, and counterpoise
It also worked well until i could put up a permanent antenna farm