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 snuffy19608
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Joined: Nov 2005  PA, USA
 
 Posts: 770 Feedback: 100% (4) |
Posted: 4/28/2012 9:45:36 PM
THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT Also, how much is too much feed line? I would want to go from the second or third floor of the house down to a basement window, then about ten more feet to the radio. |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 10:05:42 PM
Well, if I read your post correctly, you want to put up a G5RV with the center located at about the third floor. Then extend the "legs" down to two poles that are only 4 feet apart? Like in a very steep "V" (10 degrees)? The legs need to be at 90 degrees to each other for it to operate very well.
Coax length is dependant on frequency vs. length of run. For HF 100 watt applications, RG8X up to about 50 ft. without appreciable loss. Longer runs need better coax like RG213,9913,LMR400,Heliax... 
An MS Paint drawing of your lot along with your antenna plan and surrounding trees/powerlines would be a big help.  |
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FrankSymptoms
Veteran of the Third Battle of Tannhauser Gate.
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Posted: 4/28/2012 10:12:45 PM
Originally Posted By snuffy19608:
The finance minister has agreed to a HF radio next month for my birthday. Now I have to put up an antenna. Our back yard is Extremely small, about 45 feet from the enclosed back porch to the end of the yard. I was considering a G5RV with the feed line attached to the house about the porch which gives me about 12 more feet. We have 2 wash poles at the end of the yard, about 4 feet apart. Can I attach the ends of the antenna to these , with an angle from the house down to the poles. Is 4 feet enough separation or do I need to put up another pole someplace further from the first? Also, how much is too much feed line? I would want to go from the second or third floor of the house down to a basement window, then about ten more feet to the radio. As I see it you are running the "legs" of your G5RV antenna almost parallel for their entire length. This should be avoided; the two legs of the antenna will interfere with each other. Your antenna is a type of dipole, so the longer you can run the legs away from each other, the better. Feed line: "Too much feed line" is relative to the frequency. At VHF, losses are measured in yards; at UHF, in FEET. Loss is a function of frequency, so a UHF antenna needs shorter feed line than a VHF, etc. For all HF frequencies, I wouldn't worry about feed line losses until the run was over, say, 75 feet at 10 meters. |
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stanprophet09
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Posted: 4/28/2012 10:41:16 PM
[Last Edit: 4/28/2012 10:41:58 PM by stanprophet09]
Originally Posted By snuffy19608:
The finance minister has agreed to a HF radio next month for my birthday. Now I have to put up an antenna. Our back yard is Extremely small, about 45 feet from the enclosed back porch to the end of the yard. I was considering a G5RV with the feed line attached to the house about the porch which gives me about 12 more feet. We have 2 wash poles at the end of the yard, about 4 feet apart. Can I attach the ends of the antenna to these , with an angle from the house down to the poles. Is 4 feet enough separation or do I need to put up another pole someplace further from the first? Also, how much is too much feed line? I would want to go from the second or third floor of the house down to a basement window, then about ten more feet to the radio. Like others have said, paralleling the legs will not work. The lot is small but there is a way to make something work. Hell I am in an apartment and I am able to work HF. So far I have seen AFM come up with some good antenna solutions. And many good antenna guys here. MS Paint, and you will get some good suggestions. |
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A_Free_Man
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Posted: 4/28/2012 11:08:17 PM
Paralleling the legs is like balanced line... and the signal will cancel. They have to be spread apart, 90 degrees or more, better 120 degrees or more.
OK, 45' from house to back of the yard. How WIDE is the yard? |
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Posted: 4/28/2012 11:09:18 PM
[Last Edit: 4/28/2012 11:19:31 PM by wdlsguy]
It doesn't sound like you have room for an 80 meter (1005 / 3.5 = 287 foot) loop, but a 40 meter (1005 / 7 = 144 foot) loop might fit (a 40 meter loop also works on 20, 15 and 10 meters with a tuner). Run 300 or 450 ohm ladder line from the loop to your tuner in the basement. You want to make the feedline an odd multiple of 1/8 wavelength on your lowest frequency (7 MHz in this case).
1/8 wavelength = 123 / frequency * velocity factor. So if the frequency is 7 MHz, and the velocity factor is 0.88, 1/8 wavelength is 15.5 feet (123 / 7 * 0.88). So good lengths of ladder line would be 15.5 feet, 46.5 feet, etc. ETA the dimensions of 80 and 40 meter loops. |
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snuffy19608
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Posted: 4/29/2012 7:11:48 AM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2012 8:42:40 AM by snuffy19608]
Originally Posted By A_Free_Man:
Paralleling the legs is like balanced line... and the signal will cancel. They have to be spread apart, 90 degrees or more, better 120 degrees or more. OK, 45' from house to back of the yard. How WIDE is the yard? Walked out back with a tape just now. Back yard is 43' X 25' wide. House is 3 story semi detached, 33' long and 13'6" wide with a 10' enclosed back porch . |
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:33:38 AM
Look at a vertical for your situation.
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BigDaddy0004
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:41:53 AM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2012 9:44:11 AM by BigDaddy0004]
Originally Posted By Jazzemt:
Look at a vertical for your situation. ^^^This^^^...That's what I was thinking, too. |
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Mndless
Dont know a thing
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Posted: 4/29/2012 10:01:57 AM
If you look into a vertical, make sure you look closely at how much space you have for ground radials.. with a 45 ft width, if might be a tight fit....
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Posted: 4/29/2012 10:50:04 AM
Yep vertical. I recommend the end fed wire. 31' with a 9;1 unun. I have one up the tree and my ts2000 will tune it to 40-6 it will tune 80 but would question its performance.
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Posted: 4/29/2012 12:13:50 PM
I would recommend a Hustler 4BVT antenna. It will fit your yard and when properly adjusted, you won't even need a tuner. Try the good folks at DX Engineering and buy one of these.
Hustler 4BVT |
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robmkivseries70
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Posted: 4/29/2012 12:16:40 PM
If the center of the dipole could be mounted on/ above the house it could work. One leg would have to come down somewhere in the front yard; though, it could be off to the side. 73, Rob
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Posted: 4/29/2012 12:22:24 PM
Originally Posted By robmkivseries70:
If the center of the dipole could be mounted on/ above the house it could work. One leg would have to come down somewhere in the front yard; though, it could be off to the side. 73, Rob Near field RF will certainly give you fits if you run an amp with running one leg of your dipole over the roof. RF will finds its way into your house wiring and if you have GFI outlets.....they will trip. I have this setup and 15m and 10m causes all kinds of trouble for me. I don't have any issues with 20m to 80m with this setup though, but I use a vertical for 15m and 10m to keep the RF Gremlins out of the house. |
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piccolo
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Posted: 4/29/2012 12:41:29 PM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2012 12:48:03 PM by piccolo]
How much front yard you got?
You might be able to put up a gable end mast and run an OC dipole of some sort. Just a thought. Another idea. http://www.ebay.com/itm/QSO-KING-160-6-meters-2-KW-end-fed-ham-antenna-/140575545512?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20baf498a8 This guy is a good guy to deal with. Draw a picture of your yard and call him. He has several different types of antennas and seems pretty astute. |
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dablues
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Posted: 4/29/2012 1:48:44 PM
[Last Edit: 4/29/2012 2:29:23 PM by dablues]
http://www.gapantenna.com/titan.html This might just be the way to go. <snip> TITAN DX 8 Band Multiband DX Antenna SPECIFICATIONS Bands 10m 12m 15m 17m 20m 30m 40m and 100 KHz on 80m Bandwidth –– Under 2:1 Entire band on 40m 30m 20m 17m 15m 12m 10m 100KHz on 80m Height –– 25 ft Weight –– 25 lbs Mount : All hardware supplied except the 1-1/4" O.D. steel mast Counterpoise : 4 rigid counterpoises 80" long each Ground Area Required : None </snip> Don't dismiss a vertical out of hand, when I first got my ticket, I used a ground mount 10 to 160 meter multiband vertical to great effect. My setup was a bit different, I had the luxury of a fairly big back yard and layed out a spiderweb of random length radials. 100 watts and I talked all over the world. This Titan doesn't need 'em!  So this could be strapped on a chimney or mounted to the side of a gable end with standoffs.
But yes, the G5RV just won't work in your situation, the ladder feed needs to come off at right angles. Another alternative possibility that I'm running now is a multiband Alpha Delta dipole. It's a shortened dipole 10 to 80 meters , total of 83 feet. I'm supporting it at the center from a short mast strapped to my chimney, one end is tied to a big tree in the back yard and the other to a tree across the side walk in the front of the house. Looks like this... 
It's almost invisible, grey wire, grey fittings, grey wooden mast strapped to a grey stucco chimney with grey straps. Now before you start complaining about my reading comprehension about your space limits *if* you can run one leg straight, you can sort of zig - zag the other leg into a lazy Z without much loss, or one leg horizontal and the other sloping or even vertical. Sound like with 3 stories you can get the center up at least 40 feet –– lots of compromises that work surprisingly well
Anyway, Good Luck! |
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Posted: 4/29/2012 2:26:34 PM
One essential question is what kind of comms you are looking to pursue on HF. If you want short range lower band stuff for emcomm, then a vertical is not for you. Otherwise a vertical can be a reasonable option. Can also "get both".
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Posted: 4/29/2012 7:00:58 PM
Walked out back with a tape just now. Back yard is 43' X 25' wide. House is 3 story semi detached, 33' long and 13'6" wide with a 10' enclosed back porch .
A 44' dipole, fed with ladder line would be another possibility. Works on all bands from 10m through 40m. |
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Posted: 4/29/2012 7:52:18 PM
Gap Titan is supposed to be a pretty good antenna, I really wish I had one at my present location. Maybe next year (sigh).
But WITH a wide range tuner, a doublet at ~3/8 wavelength for your lowest operating frequency will work, and the ~44 ft. you have will get you down to 40M.. I only wish I had that much space. Right now I'm working with the back deck of an apartment, a straight up 1/4w 20M radiator and a couple elevated radials. Fed via the SGC autocoupler it "tunes" on all bands but performance below 20M is "not very good". The system's biggest weakness is on receive, owing to lots of local noise. Taking the same setup out into the field it works pretty darn good. |
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snuffy19608
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Posted: 4/29/2012 9:47:23 PM
Front yard is 10'X13' with slope leading to sidewalk, not really usable.
I would like to work as many bands as possible, would really like to get on 80m where the Arfcom and APRN nets are. I will be purchasing a tuner, just have to figure out the best kind. Right now emphasis is on the antenna, no particular reason, just had to pick a starting point. As far as a radio, was looking at a portable rig such as FT-857, or some of the ICOM rigs, would like to try mobile ops. after I get my feet wet. Thank you all for your help, keep the ideas coming. I'm a noob to HF, need all the advice I can get. Again, thanks. Well, off to work- will check back tomorrow. |
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FrankSymptoms
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Posted: 4/29/2012 10:16:05 PM
Consider a drooping dipole:
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A_Free_Man
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Posted: 4/29/2012 10:25:43 PM
http://vimeo.com/33926047 Video
7 - BAND SEMI VERTICAL TRAP ANTENNA by Bob Rice VE3HKY 7 - Band Semi Vertical Trap Antenna that can be built for less than $100 using simple tools and installed on a small lot with ease. NO ANTENNA TUNER REQUIRED The Article for this antenna. http://sites.google.com/site/trapantenna/ |
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KB7DX
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Posted: 4/29/2012 11:00:49 PM
Lots of ideas posted but no one has asked so I will. What's your budget? We love to spend other peoples money.
Antennas and ham radio in general is a "sky is the limit" hobby..just like guns! Fortunately, with ham radio, you don't need "top tier" and get good performance. Not so much with guns. |
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piccolo
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Posted: 4/29/2012 11:25:19 PM
What is a good fairly inexpensive route for this guy to go?
He wants to go HF, with an option for portable. (which sort of but not quite rules out an IC 718) He's also new so nothing too complicated. I understand the Yaesu rigs are pretty difficult to learn on. Also what do you guys have unused in the closet in decent shape? He's going to need a tuner, a rig and a power supply. Let's get this guy on the air. Nuc, I think he lives about an hour or so from you. |
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dablues
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Posted: 4/30/2012 11:11:42 AM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 11:28:00 AM by dablues]
I don't have anything to spare, but requirements are pretty simple. I run an old Kenwood TS430 on a marine battery –– gives me a couple days of just listening without any power at all. That's my power supply. Antenna tuner is a great addition, If the antenna not quite to a 2:1, like in the case of that vertical I talked about that only has 100KZ at 80 meters, just tune it. It doesn't fix fix a poor SWR, but it fools a rig into thinking it's got a perfect match.
 ...quick search found my tuner, a kenwood at-130 for 20$ on ebay.
Found my rig for $200! and a Kenwood TS440 is an even nicer solid state switching transmitter - no relays –– found one of those for $250 on ebay. You don't have to spend a smalll fortune...unless you want to. But if you pick up a used solid state rig from mid 1980's, it'll be way cheaper than than the best of breed new stuff that can cost thousands. You might also find a rig with an auto tuner already bundle –– even easier. ETA: TS 430 ($200), manual tuner ($20), Signal Link USB digital box ($100), AlphaDelta multiband dipole ($125), 75 feet of coax ($40), marine battery $80 and misc bits and pieces ––- under six bills for a modern digital station with RTTY, PSK, Olivia, Throb, Contestia etc... I can hit Asia, Russia, Central Europe, all of continental US, South America with 30 Watts on Psk. Tell Finance Minister it's gonna cost two grand, buy used and get another AR |
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snuffy19608
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Posted: 4/30/2012 8:49:17 PM
[Last Edit: 4/30/2012 8:54:08 PM by snuffy19608]
Can I get some thoughts on Maple Leaf Studios antennas, particularly the end fed EZtenna and the Mini? Also, can anyone recommend a decently priced manual tuner? Was looking at a Dentron Super Tuner- opinions? Tks.
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