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HomeSlice
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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:28:10 PM

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I've never used the stuff, except for a tuning stub in the super loop 80. I've heard a lot of good things about it, like it's ability to handle high SWR with minimal loss. And, of course, it's pretty cheap compared to good coax.

I'm considering building a large full wave loop, for 80 or more likely 160. From everything I've read, these like to be fed w/ ladder line (the 450 ohm stuff). I thought about feeding it w/ coax, and putting a 4:1 or higher balun on the end of it, but more reading says we drop a lot of efficiency that way. In addition, that coax and balun are cost items. I know I could put a remote coupler (SGC, etc) on the end of the coax, but that's even more $. I'd also like to one day have an amp.

So, this leads me to some questions, many of which are probably stupid for someone who's used the stuff before:

Is this stuff really as efficient as I'm reading vs. coax? Is there a simple explanation for why, if so?
How much power can it handle at HF frequencies? Can 16ga or 14ga handle legal limit (key-down)?
How badly does it interact with adjacent items such as tower legs, other coax runs, etc?
Can you bury it in conduit w/ several runs of coax?

I'm thinking I might trade in my desk-based auto-tuner for one w/ a ladder line output if I can make this work. I don't want to go to the trouble and expense of putting up an antenna that sucks.

Thanks in advance,
-Slice








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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:30:54 PM
I've been looking into a 160M loop, and from what i'e been readin, 600 ohm open feeder is the bees knees.
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HomeSlice
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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:35:23 PM
I have to think it's pretty nasty to bury that stuff in conduit w/ coax runs

Have you read that the 450 ohm insulated stuff doesn't work?


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Posted: 3/6/2012 10:55:56 PM
I've never tried burying it, but I'd be surprised if that turned out to be a good idea.

I have used the stuff for feeding HF dipoles for many years, with a circuit from an old (1960's) ARRL handbook using two huge variable capacitors and a tapped coil from which the feedline is taken off. You don't have to worry about the mismatch between the feedline impedance and the dipole center impedance, because even with high swr, the loss due to the mismatch is not enough to worry about. I have used it with (ahem) full legal limit power without a hitch. (It's not hooked up right now, though - I could probably snap a photo, but it's not all set up).

I stay away from matchbox circuits that use baluns, because IMHO they can saturate or otherwise degrade your signal. Instead, the coil tap is naturally balanced.

I have no good way to evaluate whether or not nearby metal objects result in significant unbalancing of the currents in the wires, but I don't have a tower anymore and so I don't worry too much about stuff like that. YMMV though.



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Posted: 3/7/2012 12:03:33 PM
The ladder line should be away from any metal objects. Some guys use a short run of coax out to a balun. Then the run of ladder line to the antenna. This makes getting the feedline out of the building easy. Don't attach ladder line to metal structures without using a stand-off. IIRC the ladder line should be at least one foot from any metal objects like tower legs.
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HarryStone
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Posted: 3/7/2012 12:29:42 PM
I heard somewhere that the rule of thumb is to keep balanced line 2 widths away from any conductive objects and the earth. Widths being the distance between the conductors. In my experience (both doing it right and wrong ) it's a good rule to follow. That precludes burying it, unless you went to extremes by centering it inside a large conduit with nothing else inside. Way more trouble than it would be worth I imagine.

I've heard over and over again on eham and qrz that the typical 18 gauge solid 450 ohm ladder line will handle legal limit. Be aware though that there will be points along the line at legal limit power that have a potential of thousands of volts. Even though the line won't glow in the dark with the insulation dripping off of it, you want to make sure that it stays out of the reach of children or pets.



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Posted: 3/7/2012 12:48:20 PM

http://www.athensarc.org/ladder.asp

http://www.trueladderline.com/

600 ohm true ladder line.....it's magically delicious.

I tune mine with: http://www.palstar.com/bt1500a.php

My Alpha gives it no problems.
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Posted: 3/7/2012 1:19:16 PM
Is this stuff really as efficient as I'm reading vs. coax?末Yes, it is, at least where non-resonant antennas are concerned.

Is there a simple explanation for why, if so?末I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know.

How much power can it handle at HF frequencies? Can 16ga or 14ga handle legal limit (key-down)?末Legal limit is no problem. Even 18ga is OK.

How badly does it interact with adjacent items such as tower legs, other coax runs, etc? Badly. You need to keep it at least a few inches away.

Can you bury it in conduit w/ several runs of coax?末NO, NO, NO!

I'm thinking I might trade in my desk-based auto-tuner for one w/ a ladder line output if I can make this work末Your desktop tuner will work fine with the correct balun and feedline setup.

If you are planning on running a resonant loop, then use coax to a 4:1 current balun at the antenna feedpoint. If you are running a non-resonant loop then use either a balanced tuner (e.g. SG-230, etc.) or use a short length of coax to a 1:1 current balun to ladder line. See this wonderful document from DX Engineering.

I bring ladder line right into my shack and right up to the tuner/balun. The biggest issue with this is that you CAN get RF in the shack DURING TUNING and therefore it is imperative to tune at low power (e.g. 10W). Other than that it's a wonderful thing.
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Posted: 3/7/2012 7:48:36 PM
[Last Edit: 3/7/2012 7:52:51 PM by pcsutton]

Originally Posted By aa777888-2:
Is this stuff really as efficient as I'm reading vs. coax?末Yes, it is, at least where non-resonant antennas are concerned.

Is there a simple explanation for why, if so?末I'm a bit embarrassed to admit that I don't know.

How much power can it handle at HF frequencies? Can 16ga or 14ga handle legal limit (key-down)?末Legal limit is no problem. Even 18ga is OK.

How badly does it interact with adjacent items such as tower legs, other coax runs, etc? Badly. You need to keep it at least a few inches away.

Can you bury it in conduit w/ several runs of coax?末NO, NO, NO!

I'm thinking I might trade in my desk-based auto-tuner for one w/ a ladder line output if I can make this work末Your desktop tuner will work fine with the correct balun and feedline setup.

If you are planning on running a resonant loop, then use coax to a 4:1 current balun at the antenna feedpoint. If you are running a non-resonant loop then use either a balanced tuner (e.g. SG-230, etc.) or use a short length of coax to a 1:1 current balun to ladder line. See this wonderful document from DX Engineering.

I bring ladder line right into my shack and right up to the tuner/balun. The biggest issue with this is that you CAN get RF in the shack DURING TUNING and therefore it is imperative to tune at low power (e.g. 10W). Other than that it's a wonderful thing.

There is a way to bury a run of 'ladder line' without actually burying the ladder line. The issue comes from getting the ladder line 'legs' too close together because they aren't shielded. Ladder line's 'shielding' comes from it's separation.

You can't bury ladder line in a conduit, however, you can bury 2 lengths of coax in 2 conduits. You can attach the ladder line to the center connectors of the 2 runs of coax, and ground the shielding. If you do this at each end of the buried run, it should work.

Think of it as inserting an extension cord in the middle of your ladder line run that allows you to bury it, or hooking ladder line to two bolts that pass through a wall.


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"I swear, there is a limited amount of intelligence in the world and the population is increasing." - 96Ag
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