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Posted: 12/30/2013 2:05:42 PM EDT
[#1]
I'm still not understanding where you're trying to go here.
Inside 200 yards, I don't see any world where a 556 is a superior hunting cartridge than a supersonic 300 black. Not to mention that you need just a 9" barrel on the 300 black to achieve that. Inside 200 yards, there's no other AR-15 cartridge that will offer more. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 2:14:15 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
I'm still not understanding where you're trying to go here. Inside 200 yards, I don't see any world where a 556 is a superior hunting cartridge than a supersonic 300 black. Not to mention that you need just a 9" barrel on the 300 black to achieve that. Inside 200 yards, there's no other AR-15 cartridge that will offer more. For the purpose of what the OP is asking... 16" 5.56 barrel. or 8.5" 300blk You can throw a 62gr .224" dia bullet with more muzzle energy than you can a 110-125gr .308 bullet. Not to mention you can get a half way decent hunting bullet for that weight in 223... where as .308" bullets in the 110-125gr are varmint/ballistic tip type. The 5.56 bullet has a better BC, which means it retains its velocity, and as a result energy down range compared to the 30 cal bullet. If you throw the numbers into to the calc at 62gr bullet at 2900-3000fps vs. a 110-125gr at 2000-2100fps ... the 62gr will have more muzzle energy, and more retained energy down range. Not to mention sectional density of a long 5.56 bullet is better than the short 30 cals. Better penetration. Inside 200 yards, a 6.5 Grendel blows anything a 5.56 or 300blk can throw at it... not to mention it will still shine well past the effective range of both 5.56 and 300blk. The guy is building a hunting rifle... and he has limited his choice to two calibers that are inferior in terminal and external ballistics, and bullet selection for hunting compared to the other options you can stick in a AR15 lower. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:03:13 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Ah, ok, everyone is lying about the 300 black ballistics I guess. Do more research on the cartridge, I'm not gonna do it for you. For a dedicated sub 200 yard AR-15 platform hunting rig (like what the OP needs), you'll gain nothing over 300 black with any other cartridge available. The fact that you just need a 9" barrel with the 300 black is just gravy. I guess if you are using Wikipedia as a source of factual information then there is no arguing with you. Probably explains why you believe a 110-125gr 30 cal bullet at 2000-2100 fps is better than a 110-120gr bullet from a 6.5 or 6.8 going 2500-2600fps. And that somehow an inferior BC bullet (light 30 cals) will retain more energy than bullets with better BCs that start off with more energy. 
Glad to see you can read the brochure, AAC marketing worked well on you 
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:20:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Christ man. AAC and Wikipedia are far from the only two sources stating ballistics of the 300 black cartridge.
The research has been done by several. The research is out there, choose to do a little yourself, or don't for all I care. The reality is that there is no superior sub 200 yard AR-15 cartridge, period. The cartridges that will be on par will come in a much larger package as well. 6.5 is just as much of a niche round as 300 black. At least with 300 black, you can get optimum ballistics out of just a 9" barrel, and also have the option to run subsonic suppressed that tops the performance of an MP5. The OP needs sub 200 yards performance, that is all. You talking about 200 plus yard performance is irrelevant here. You fail to make a point for another cartridge under 200 yards. Know why? Because you can't argue another cartridge to be more effective or more terminal. Sure, you can argue some to be on par, but as I already pointed out, the 300 has advantages over those other cartridges like size and versatility. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:21:33 PM EDT
[#5]
The 300 Blackout gets my vote. But you really gotta feed it super sonic if you want to kill anything. The subs are not very effective, especially at distance.
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:23:58 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ah, ok, everyone is lying about the 300 black ballistics I guess. Do more research on the cartridge, I'm not gonna do it for you. For a dedicated sub 200 yard AR-15 platform hunting rig (like what the OP needs), you'll gain nothing over 300 black with any other cartridge available. The fact that you just need a 9" barrel with the 300 black is just gravy. I guess if you are using Wikipedia as a source of factual information then there is no arguing with you. Probably explains why you believe a 110-125gr 30 cal bullet at 2000-2100 fps is better than a 110-120gr bullet from a 6.5 or 6.8 going 2500-2600fps. And that somehow an inferior BC bullet (light 30 cals) will retain more energy than bullets with better BCs that start off with more energy.
Glad to see you can read the brochure, AAC marketing worked well on you You do realize the 300BO does between 2200-2450fps at the muzzle in the 110-125grn (load dependent) range, right? So if you are putting in the wrong data (2,000-2,100fps), of course you are going to get the wrong results. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:25:23 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
The 300 Blackout gets my vote. But you really gotta feed it super sonic if you want to kill anything. The subs are not very effective, especially at distance. I dunno, GaryD has a bunch of deer kills with subsonic 300BO. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:31:43 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
The reality is that there is no superior sub 200 yard AR-15 cartridge, period. The cartridges that will be on par will come in a much larger package as well. Yes... yes there is. I have given you two of them... 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC... there is also 6mmAR Turbo, and the 40* version of it. All of those cartridges have more velocity and energy than the 300blk can do at the muzzle. 6mm and 6.5mm BCs are much higher, which allows them to retain that velocity and energy, were as a sub .200 BC 110-125gr 30 cal bullet loses it like a rock. Quoted:6.5 is just as much of a niche round as 300 black. At least with 300 black, you can get optimum ballistics out of just a 9" barrel, and also have the option to run subsonic suppressed that tops the performance of an MP5. Your optimal ballistics of a 300blk are still inferior to that of a 6.5. The only thing that 300blk has going for it is that it can do really good out of a short barrel, and it has a lot more power than most other suppressed calibers. When it comes to supersonic ballistics it has trouble keeping up with 223 in pretty much everything other than short barrels... The OP is considering a longer barrel gun since he has the 5.56 16" barrel as a option. And for hunting applications, a .224cal TSX and most of the 6, 6.5mm bullets will outperform any 110-125gr 30 cals. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:34:42 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted:
You do realize the 300BO does between 2200-2450fps at the muzzle in the 110-125grn (load dependent) range, right? So if you are putting in the wrong data (2,000-2,100fps), of course you are going to get the wrong results. Everything that I have seen for 8-9" barrels points to a 1950-2100fps range for 110-125gr. The 2200-2450fps is if you are going with a longer barrel... and if a long barrel is acceptable then you might as well step up to a caliber that benefits from it... your 6, 6.5, and 6.8s that fit in an AR. Quoted:
The 300 Blackout gets my vote. But you really gotta feed it super sonic if you want to kill anything. The subs are not very effective, especially at distance. I dunno, GaryD has a bunch of deer kills with subsonic 300BO. Oh no doubt it will work within reasonable range... 220gr at the sound barriers are just a little bit weaker than a full power 158gr 357mag load out of a wheel gun... which people kill plenty of deer with. Actually if you look at it.. the 300blk is basically a copy of a magnum pistol caliber. VERY similar to internal volume to a 357mag. So it makes sense you have similar ballistics. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:36:17 PM EDT
[#10]
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The 300 Blackout gets my vote. But you really gotta feed it super sonic if you want to kill anything. The subs are not very effective, especially at distance. I dunno, GaryD has a bunch of deer kills with subsonic 300BO. Not saying it's impossible, just no where near as effective as the super sonic round. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:41:39 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Inside 200 yards, there's no other AR-15 cartridge that will offer more. Really dude you need to quit repeating this. Is the 300 sufficient at under 200 yards? Of course. But there are several others that offer more energy...PERIOD! This is not to bash the Blackout. It is a great round for what it was designed to do. It is NOT the greatest supersonic AR-15 round so just let it go. And to be clear here most of the stats that keep getting posted in comparisons of the Blackout vs the 5.56 is always with 55 or 62 gr ammo. Not a good comparison. Here is a chart that compares the 300 using the Barnes 110gr Blacktip vs M-855 vs MK262 or 77 gr ammo. As you can see the 300 clearly beats the 62 grain stuff. But the 77 gr actually beats the 300 in the supersonic role. Yes the 300 has more muzzle energy however at around 50 yards the 77 gr 5.56 pulls ahead and stays ahead. http://www.shooterscalculator.com/ballistic-trajectory-chart.php?t=eb5d414d |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 3:45:48 PM EDT
[#12]
Finally someone that gets it.
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Posted: 12/30/2013 4:01:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Someone please tell me what whitetail within 200 yards will be taken down with 223/556, 6.5 or 6.8, but not with 300 black - with the same shot placement of course.
Let's face it, none of these are bear cartridges. I mean really, I've looked at the ballistics all the AR-15 calibers have to offer within 200 yards. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. I see none, and you surely aren't gonna have a compact rifle when comparing those other cartridges that can even be mentioned alongside the blackout. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 4:20:44 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Someone please tell me what whitetail within 200 yards will be taken down with 223/556, 6.5 or 6.8, but not with 300 black - with the same shot placement of course. Let's face it, none of these are bear cartridges. I mean really, I've looked at the ballistics all the AR-15 calibers have to offer within 200 yards. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. I see none, and you surely aren't gonna have a compact rifle when comparing those other cartridges that can even be mentioned alongside the blackout. Oh so now you're changing your tune. No one is arguing the .300 is not sufficient. But you keep spouting that nothing beats the .300 inside of 200 yards which is utter nonsense. No one is saying you SHOULD use a cartridge that offers more energy. But you seemed to be suggesting the .300 is better under 200 yards than any other AR-15 round which is a flat out falsehood. How about this would you rather shoot an intruder with your .45 ACP or your supersonic .300? I know your answer. Why? Because of the practical benefit of the .300 that's why. Same applies to hunting. Is the 30-30 sufficient? Sure it is. Is a 30-06 better? You betcha. But that doesn't mean I have to use one. Some people prefer to use a .300. That's cool. I might some day myself with my 9.5 inch. Some guys prefer other calibers that offer more energy and range. Most of us hunt in areas where it really doesn't matter all that much. In the supersonic category I know of at least one caliber that will ballistically beat the Blackout all the way to sub 10 inches. Subsonically/suppressed the .300 is a super weapon and round. The .300 has enough good qualities to stand on it's own without resorting to fanboism foolishness. Just let it go. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 4:26:16 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. With 16" barrels... if using your highest BC bullets in both 30cal bullet in the 110gr range and 6.5mm in 120gr range, you'll see around 30% less drop with a 6.5mm... if we go longer, then the 6.5 pulls away even more. And 6mm shoot even flatter in an AR sized caliber. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 4:53:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Someone please tell me what whitetail within 200 yards will be taken down with 223/556, 6.5 or 6.8, but not with 300 black - with the same shot placement of course. Let's face it, none of these are bear cartridges. I mean really, I've looked at the ballistics all the AR-15 calibers have to offer within 200 yards. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. I see none, and you surely aren't gonna have a compact rifle when comparing those other cartridges that can even be mentioned alongside the blackout. Oh so now you're changing your tune. No one is arguing the .300 is not sufficient. But you keep spouting that nothing beats the .300 inside of 200 yards which is utter nonsense. No one is saying you SHOULD use a cartridge that offers more energy. But you seemed to be suggesting the .300 is better under 200 yards than any other AR-15 round which is a flat out falsehood. How about this would you rather shoot an intruder with your .45 ACP or your supersonic .300? I know your answer. Why? Because of the practical benefit of the .300 that's why. Same applies to hunting. Is the 30-30 sufficient? Sure it is. Is a 30-06 better? You betcha. But that doesn't mean I have to use one. Some people prefer to use a .300. That's cool. I might some day myself with my 9.5 inch. Some guys prefer other calibers that offer more energy and range. Most of use hunt in areas where it really doesn't matter all that much. In the supersonic category I know of at least one caliber that will ballistically beat the Blackout all the way to sub 10 inches. Subsonically/suppressed the .300 is a super weapon and round. The .300 has enough good qualities to stand on it's own without resorting to fanboism foolishness. Just let it go. Would you be happier if we were talking about the "best sub-200 yard caliber that you can actually find ammo for?" 
6.5 Grendel is just another wildcat cartridge that never caught on…why Grendel fanboys have to keep bringing it up when other people want to talk about REAL cartridges, I don't quite get it. ETA - I have put down multiple whitetail with 223 (75-77 grain) fired from 14.5" and 16" barrels, ranging from 80 to 130 yards. So far, all have been DRT. The only reason I have gone to the 300 for deer is so I can get away with even less barrel. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 5:02:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
Would you be happier if he (the OP) said "Best sub-200 yard caliber that you can actually find ammo for?"
6.5 Grendel is just another wildcat cartridge that never caught on…why Grendel fanboys have to keep bringing it up when other people want to talk about REAL cartridges, I don't quite get it. Lol.. there are no "real" cartridges for an AR15 outside of 223. The rest of them are people attempting to stick a different caliber into a 223 mag... which ends up yielding garbage velocity for what they can actually do. Everything that is built on a 223 sized rifle is a compromise. I agree, 6.5 Grendel didn't catch on because people who realized they needed ballistics that were more than 223 stepped up to an AR10 sized rifle. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 5:08:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Someone please tell me what whitetail within 200 yards will be taken down with 223/556, 6.5 or 6.8, but not with 300 black - with the same shot placement of course. Let's face it, none of these are bear cartridges. I mean really, I've looked at the ballistics all the AR-15 calibers have to offer within 200 yards. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. I see none, and you surely aren't gonna have a compact rifle when comparing those other cartridges that can even be mentioned alongside the blackout. Oh so now you're changing your tune. No one is arguing the .300 is not sufficient. But you keep spouting that nothing beats the .300 inside of 200 yards which is utter nonsense. No one is saying you SHOULD use a cartridge that offers more energy. But you seemed to be suggesting the .300 is better under 200 yards than any other AR-15 round which is a flat out falsehood. How about this would you rather shoot an intruder with your .45 ACP or your supersonic .300? I know your answer. Why? Because of the practical benefit of the .300 that's why. Same applies to hunting. Is the 30-30 sufficient? Sure it is. Is a 30-06 better? You betcha. But that doesn't mean I have to use one. Some people prefer to use a .300. That's cool. I might some day myself with my 9.5 inch. Some guys prefer other calibers that offer more energy and range. Most of use hunt in areas where it really doesn't matter all that much. In the supersonic category I know of at least one caliber that will ballistically beat the Blackout all the way to sub 10 inches. Subsonically/suppressed the .300 is a super weapon and round. The .300 has enough good qualities to stand on it's own without resorting to fanboism foolishness. Just let it go. Would you be happier if we were talking about the "best sub-200 yard caliber that you can actually find ammo for?"
6.5 Grendel is just another wildcat cartridge that never caught on…why Grendel fanboys have to keep bringing it up when other people want to talk about REAL cartridges, I don't quite get it. ETA - I have put down multiple whitetail with 223 (75-77 grain) fired from 14.5" and 16" barrels, ranging from 80 to 130 yards. So far, all have been DRT. The only reason I have gone to the 300 for deer is so I can get away with even less barrel. There are plenty of "sub 200" yard guns we can find plenty of ammo for. Best? Define best! Most hunters will never take a shot over 200 yards so in reality most of us use a sub 200 yard gun. Again define Best!
The Grendel guys will take offense to your suggestion it never caught on.  It is a great round too.
I think the 223/5.56 is a great deer round if used within reason especially with all the newer bullets available today. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 5:49:32 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Someone please tell me what whitetail within 200 yards will be taken down with 223/556, 6.5 or 6.8, but not with 300 black - with the same shot placement of course. Let's face it, none of these are bear cartridges. I mean really, I've looked at the ballistics all the AR-15 calibers have to offer within 200 yards. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me a single practical benefit you're going to get within 200 yards with any other AR-15 cartridge over the 300 black. I see none, and you surely aren't gonna have a compact rifle when comparing those other cartridges that can even be mentioned alongside the blackout. Oh so now you're changing your tune. No one is arguing the .300 is not sufficient. But you keep spouting that nothing beats the .300 inside of 200 yards which is utter nonsense. No one is saying you SHOULD use a cartridge that offers more energy. But you seemed to be suggesting the .300 is better under 200 yards than any other AR-15 round which is a flat out falsehood. How about this would you rather shoot an intruder with your .45 ACP or your supersonic .300? I know your answer. Why? Because of the practical benefit of the .300 that's why. Same applies to hunting. Is the 30-30 sufficient? Sure it is. Is a 30-06 better? You betcha. But that doesn't mean I have to use one. Some people prefer to use a .300. That's cool. I might some day myself with my 9.5 inch. Some guys prefer other calibers that offer more energy and range. Most of use hunt in areas where it really doesn't matter all that much. In the supersonic category I know of at least one caliber that will ballistically beat the Blackout all the way to sub 10 inches. Subsonically/suppressed the .300 is a super weapon and round. The .300 has enough good qualities to stand on it's own without resorting to fanboism foolishness. Just let it go. Would you be happier if we were talking about the "best sub-200 yard caliber that you can actually find ammo for?"
6.5 Grendel is just another wildcat cartridge that never caught on…why Grendel fanboys have to keep bringing it up when other people want to talk about REAL cartridges, I don't quite get it. ETA - I have put down multiple whitetail with 223 (75-77 grain) fired from 14.5" and 16" barrels, ranging from 80 to 130 yards. So far, all have been DRT. The only reason I have gone to the 300 for deer is so I can get away with even less barrel. There are plenty of "sub 200" yard guns we can find plenty of ammo for. Best? Define best! Most hunters will never take a shot over 200 yards so in reality most of us use a sub 200 yard gun. Again define Best!
The Grendel guys will take offense to your suggestion it never caught on. It is a great round too.
I think the 223/5.56 is a great deer round if used within reason especially with all the newer bullets available today. well said sir. for the record I did shoot that deer with an outlaw state 220 grain expanding sub at 50 yds . it fell dead where it stood . the 220 grain remington open tip match would be the last thing I would shoot at a deer . |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 5:51:44 PM EDT
[#20]
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I think the 223/5.56 is a great deer round if used within reason especially with all the newer bullets available today. Barnes TSX is a great bullet. Just have to make sure you pick the right weight so you can keep velocity high to open it up. do you actually live in illinois ? if so how many deer have you killed with a rifle? |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 6:03:54 PM EDT
[#21]
I think I'd go with a 16" 5.56 now and send away for the stamp. 15 months plus whatever time is between now and if/when they are legal in MI, you can save for the 8-9" 300BLK upper. Maybe ammo will be avail by then?
Worse case, no SBRs, you have a nice 16" 5.56 AR.
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Posted: 12/30/2013 11:58:20 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: build you an 8.5 inch 300 blackout pistol , then when your sbr law passes file a form one to sbr it . my property is very thick I could not take a 200 yds shot unless I was shooting down the power line right of way . also what is the law on hunting with a suppresor and do you have magazine limits ? we can use an sbr and a suppresor but have a limit on mag capacity for hunting . 10 in the mag and one in the chamber . Its no big deal I just use a piece of wood to limit the mag capacity but none the less its something to think about . 8.5 works for me. <a href="http://s48.photobucket.com/user/jwb47/media/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/jwb47/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg</a> Do you use 7.62 cans for 300? |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:12:47 PM EDT
[#23]
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No. The ft/lb of energy is probably the same, but not the muzzle velocity. That's right. Comparable energy but not velocity. Comparable?!?... 220gr right against the sound barrier makes around 500ft/lbs... a 62gr (thinking TSX for hunting) going at 2900fps is getting almost 1200ft/lbs at muzzle.. and still double the velocity at 200yds than a subsonic 308. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:20:32 PM EDT
[#24]
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No. The ft/lb of energy is probably the same, but not the muzzle velocity. That's right. Comparable energy but not velocity. Comparable?!?... 220gr right against the sound barrier makes around 500ft/lbs... a 62gr (thinking TSX for hunting) going at 2900fps is getting almost 1200ft/lbs at muzzle.. and still double the velocity at 200yds than a subsonic 308. Where did he say he would be using a 220gr subsonic round with the 300BLK? OP: I'd go 110gr-125gr 300BLK for your use. ETA: If stuck with a 16" barrel I wouldn't bother with 300BLK as it really excels in the SBR role. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:24:06 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Where did he say he would be using a 220gr subsonic round with the 300BLK? OP: I'd go 110gr-125gr 300BLK for your use. You do realize a 110-125gr going subsonic has ballistics about on par with a 38spl? If you are going subsonic you will want the heaviest bullet possible with the highest BC to retain velocity down range... and either way, it will still be inferior to a 223/5.56 with a good hunting bullet at a respectable velocity. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:35:44 PM EDT
[#26]
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Where did he say he would be using a 220gr subsonic round with the 300BLK? OP: I'd go 110gr-125gr 300BLK for your use. You do realize a 110-125gr going subsonic has ballistics about on par with a 38spl? If you are going subsonic you will want the heaviest bullet possible with the highest BC to retain velocity down range... and either way, it will still be inferior to a 223/5.56 with a good hunting bullet at a respectable velocity. You are completely missing my point. He never said ANYTHING about subsonic at all. You can't even load a 110gr-125gr bullet at subsonic velocities safely in the 300 Blackout. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:37:28 PM EDT
[#27]
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Where did he say he would be using a 220gr subsonic round with the 300BLK? OP: I'd go 110gr-125gr 300BLK for your use. You do realize a 110-125gr going subsonic has ballistics about on par with a 38spl? If you are going subsonic you will want the heaviest bullet possible with the highest BC to retain velocity down range... and either way, it will still be inferior to a 223/5.56 with a good hunting bullet at a respectable velocity. You are completely missing my point. He never said ANYTHING about subsonic at all. You can't even load a 110gr-125gr bullet at subsonic velocities safely in the 300 Blackout. And what kind of velocities are you expecting with a 110-125gr out of a 8.5" barrel? |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:48:21 PM EDT
[#28]
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Where did he say he would be using a 220gr subsonic round with the 300BLK? OP: I'd go 110gr-125gr 300BLK for your use. You do realize a 110-125gr going subsonic has ballistics about on par with a 38spl? If you are going subsonic you will want the heaviest bullet possible with the highest BC to retain velocity down range... and either way, it will still be inferior to a 223/5.56 with a good hunting bullet at a respectable velocity. You are completely missing my point. He never said ANYTHING about subsonic at all. You can't even load a 110gr-125gr bullet at subsonic velocities safely in the 300 Blackout. And what kind of velocities are you expecting with a 110-125gr out of a 8.5" barrel? 300BLK is nowhere near as dependent on barrel length like 5.56 so you don't loose that much. 
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:51:20 PM EDT
[#29]
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300BLK is nowhere near as dependent on barrel length like 5.56 so you don't loose that much. <a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/jlficken/media/screenshot20120210at814_zps8b3c780d.png.html" target="_blank">http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee30/jlficken/screenshot20120210at814_zps8b3c780d.png</a> That's fine but even at 2000fps a 110-125gr has less muzzle energy than 223 and with such a low BC you'll end up having a good % less at 200yds. Not to mention my 62gr at 2900fps was a conservative velocity in my opinion. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 12:54:30 PM EDT
[#30]
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300BLK is nowhere near as dependent on barrel length like 5.56 so you don't loose that much. <a href="http://s229.photobucket.com/user/jlficken/media/screenshot20120210at814_zps8b3c780d.png.html" target="_blank">http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee30/jlficken/screenshot20120210at814_zps8b3c780d.png</a> That's fine but even at 2000fps a 110-125gr has less muzzle energy than 223 and with such a low BC you'll end up having a good % less at 200yds. Not to mention my 62gr at 2900fps was a conservative velocity in my opinion. You can't compare a 16" 5.56 barrel to an 8.5" 300BLK barrel. I already said that if he was stuck with a 16" barrel with either caliber to go with 5.56 as there is no benefit to the 300BLK. If, however, he can SBR it then the 300BLK makes more sense. Another chart |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 1:41:01 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
You can't compare a 16" 5.56 barrel to an 8.5" 300BLK barrel. I already said that if he was stuck with a 16" barrel with either caliber to go with 5.56 as there is no benefit to the 300BLK. If, however, he can SBR it then the 300BLK makes more sense. Another chart I'm still confused how a short barrel 300blk make any sense for a hunting application. I guess if we are talking about loss of velocity vs. barrel length then ya, but we are trying to kill deer here... you need the velocity and bullet weight. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 1:47:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Taken from AAC:
"Introducing the Advanced Armament Corp. 300 AAC Blackout (300BLK). This system was developed to launch 30 caliber projectiles from the AR platform without a reduction in magazine capacity and compatible with the standard bolt. Full power 115-125 grain ammunition matches the ballistics of the 7.62x39mm AK, and eclipses 5.56mm with much higher-mass projectiles for a more dramatic effect on the target. Or choose subsonic cartridges for optimal use with a sound suppressor - 220 grain Sierra OTM (open-tip match) bullets vastly outperforms a 9mm MP5-SD in penetration and long range accuracy. Ammo and brass prices are low - Remington 115 grain UMC ammo is $12.99 a box MSRP - and it is not bare bones. It has waterproofed primers, crimped and cannelured open-tip match bullets, and a low-drag design. At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm. Max effective range, using M4 military standards for hit probability, is 440 meters for a 9 inch barrel, and 460 meters for a 16 inch barrel. 300 BLK from a 9 inch barrel has the same energy at the muzzle as a 14.5 inch barrel M4, and about 5% more energy at 440 meters - even though the barrel is much shorter. For hunting - think of it as like a 30-30 but from an AR. After you are done, you can remove your 5-round magazine and put in a 30 for plinking or home defense. For ammo, Remington has you covered with the Premiere AccuTip 125 grain. Want industry-wide support? Over 60 companies have already announced or sell products. Due to the high efficiency of the cartridge, less powder is used than 5.56mm, which results in a rifle that is a comfortable to shoot - even with a short barrel." |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 1:56:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Exactly. It is a cartridge designed to do everything, but nothing exceptionally well. Its basically an American version of what the Russians and Germans did 2/3s of a century ago. 7.62x39 and 7.92 Kurz.
I think the OP needs to realize that for the purpose of hunting, there are far better, readily available calibers that can be shot out of an AR15. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 2:17:49 PM EDT
[#34]
From Wikipedia:
"From a 9 in (230 mm) barrel, the 125 gr BLK round has the same muzzle energy as the M855 from the M4, and 5 percent more energy at 440 meters." |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 2:25:01 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
From Wikipedia: "From a 9 in (230 mm) barrel, the 125 gr BLK round has the same muzzle energy as the M855 from the M4, and 5 percent more energy at 440 meters." Lol.. no its not. Go plug it into Rex's or JBM calculators and see what the real numbers are... 62gr SS109 has almost 100ft/lbs more energy at any range 400-500yds. Either way, we are arguing two calibers that are useless for long range. A half way decent load with a 123gr 6.5mm bullet has 3-4 times the energy at 500yds than both of those. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 2:32:11 PM EDT
[#36]
Ah, ok, everyone is lying about the 300 black ballistics I guess.
Do more research on the cartridge, I'm not gonna do it for you. For a 200 plus yard dedicated hunting rig in the AR-15 platform, I'd go 6.5. For a dedicated sub 200 yard AR-15 platform hunting rig (like what the OP needs), you'll gain nothing over 300 black with any other cartridge available. The fact that you just need a 9" barrel with the 300 black is just gravy. Good day to you sir. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 4:34:35 AM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
No. The ft/lb of energy is probably the same, but not the muzzle velocity. That's right. Comparable energy but not velocity. |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 6:42:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Neither. 6.8 spc.
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Posted: 12/30/2013 9:06:14 AM EDT
[#39]
build you an 8.5 inch 300 blackout pistol , then when your sbr law passes file a form one to sbr it . my property is very thick I could not take a 200 yds shot unless I was shooting down the power line right of way . also what is the law on hunting with a suppresor and do you have magazine limits ? we can use an sbr and a suppresor but have a limit on mag capacity for hunting . 10 in the mag and one in the chamber . Its no big deal I just use a piece of wood to limit the mag capacity but none the less its something to think about .
8.5 works for me. 
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Posted: 12/30/2013 10:15:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
build you an 8.5 inch 300 blackout pistol , then when your sbr law passes file a form one to sbr it . my property is very thick I could not take a 200 yds shot unless I was shooting down the power line right of way . also what is the law on hunting with a suppresor and do you have magazine limits ? we can use an sbr and a suppresor but have a limit on mag capacity for hunting . 10 in the mag and one in the chamber . Its no big deal I just use a piece of wood to limit the mag capacity but none the less its something to think about . 8.5 works for me. <a href="http://s48.photobucket.com/user/jwb47/media/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/jwb47/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg</a> Do you use 7.62 cans for 300? |
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Posted: 12/30/2013 10:34:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
build you an 8.5 inch 300 blackout pistol , then when your sbr law passes file a form one to sbr it . my property is very thick I could not take a 200 yds shot unless I was shooting down the power line right of way . also what is the law on hunting with a suppresor and do you have magazine limits ? we can use an sbr and a suppresor but have a limit on mag capacity for hunting . 10 in the mag and one in the chamber . Its no big deal I just use a piece of wood to limit the mag capacity but none the less its something to think about . 8.5 works for me. <a href="http://s48.photobucket.com/user/jwb47/media/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg.html" target="_blank">http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f247/jwb47/A9998C7B-E0F4-46F6-9A48-F3C7925DA952-1493-000001B816BEC40B_zps762c9fc5.jpg</a> 5rd magazine limits and no supressors for hunting. Hopefully the supressor thing will change now that they have been legal here for two years or so. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:26:07 PM EDT
[#42]
if those are the only two possibilities... Then the 300 blackout wins, just don't try to do the extra long shot...think of it like a 30-30
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:27:50 PM EDT
[#43]
I assume you live in northern MI then? I'd go with a longer .300, but a 5.56 would likely work if well placed.
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:34:20 PM EDT
[#44]
Sorry, main post edited -- this will be sub 200 yards. I live in the woods and they are just too dense for a longer shot.
Would you all go with something different? Whatever I go with now I will eventually want to have a suppressed 10" 300BLK upper -- I was hoping to take care of both needs with one upper. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:38:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Sounds like you've already answered your own question.
300 black is the best sub 200 yard AR cartridge by a mile IMO. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:41:37 PM EDT
[#46]
I don't need anymore calibers in my over calibrated life
7.62 or 5.56 if you can place shots. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:45:36 PM EDT
[#47]
A shorty 300BLK will win in <200yd shooting.
Consider the 30cal bore is almost twice the surface area of a 5.56 bore so velocity is made much easier. Be sure to use 110gr Barnes black-tips for this. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 8:52:13 PM EDT
[#48]
and if it is dense cover you're definitely better off with the 300
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Posted: 12/29/2013 9:38:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Thanks guys. I just ran a ballistic calculator and saw that a 110gr 300BLK round matches a 16" 75gr round -- so I think I am sold on the 300BLK. I will later build a 5.56 upper with an A1 receiver -- I just like the way those look.
The only downside is I don't reload, but I don't imagine shooting this all that much. Just enough for dialing it in and hunting -- I have other plinking guns. |
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Posted: 12/29/2013 10:17:07 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted:
Thanks guys. I just ran a ballistic calculator and saw that a 110gr 300BLK round matches a 16" 75gr round -- so I think I am sold on the 300BLK. I will later build a 5.56 upper with an A1 receiver -- I just like the way those look. The only downside is I don't reload, but I don't imagine shooting this all that much. Just enough for dialing it in and hunting -- I have other plinking guns. So the velocity at 8" of 300 blk is the same as 223 at 16"? This is relevant to my interests as well if the SBR bill gets through the house. I have been using a 16" with SSA 70gr TSX for the last two seasons. Unfortunatly I am on a hell of a dry streak with respect to harvesting animals. So I have no real world practical results to share. I would like to build a 300blk SBR and I would like to know at what length I will get reliable velocity for expansion. |
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