I would like to discuss what's involved with hunting while using horses to move around and carry game.

We have steady, well trained horses, but are new big game hunting as are the horses. Training them to be around guns and close to gunfire is a huge issue.

Scabbards you prefer? Snakebite kits?

We are hunting a large area of the grasslands/badlands for deer and pronghorn.

Pictures of any of this stuff would be fun to see as well.

It will be a bigger issue if their not trained not to bolt or buck around gunshots. I would take them to the area your going to hunt and try to get them used to the noise for sure. I like scabbards for my long guns and a snake bite kit would be just part of any first aide kit you might take along with you. Also take some halters and tie ropes for the horses when your not on them and also maybe some fodder for them if they need a rest when you do.

Good leather scabbard.  Everyone carries there scabbard facing a different direction.  Mine faces with the butt of the rifle towards the horses shoulder on the on (left hand) side.  That way when i step off the horse my rifle is right there quick to grab.  Adjust the lengths of the straps on the scabbard until you find a comfortable place under your leg.  

Also my horse "snakebite" kit is 2 pieces of PVC pipe about 1" in diameter and 12" long.  Rattlesnake venom is not meant to kill 1000lbs animals.  What will kill them though is a bite on the end of the nose (if they're sniffing the snake for instance) and the nostrils swelling shut.  Horses cannot breath through their mouths.  IF you catch it early enough you can put the PVC in the nostrils so the horse can breath.  A shot of dexamethasone helps with the swelling as well.  

Typically what I do when I hunt horseback is try to spot an animal, either turn around or ride past it out of site, tie or hobble my horse, and sneak back. There's no fancy Hollywood running game and shooting from the back the horse for me.  

If you're more than 10 yards from your horse I seriously doubt it will bolt.  In all the hunts that I've done horseback both for pleasure and guiding I've never had a horse bolt at a gunshot from a distance, and I don't work on it with my animals.  

What will be a far bigger issue than snakes or gunshots is the smell of death on you after you've cleaned a kill.  Horses don't like the smell of blood and dead animals.  Once had a mule just about kill me while I was trying to get a quartered elk loaded on him.  The easiest solution is to mask the scent.  Take a small jar of Vicks and smear it in their nostrils.  The old timers would either cover the horses muzzle with blood (never done it, but heard it works take the for what it's worth) or blindfold them.  A jacket tied around the head makes a good blind.  

If you're packing out an animal on your horse take special care to secure the head so the antlers don't gouge your horse.  



Note the stick tied to the antlers to prevent them from working down and gouging the mule.  That's my dad and I on an elk hunting trip we took a few years back.  



There is a way to pack deer and antelope whole on your riding saddle with the head tied so it doesn't flop, but i can't find a pic online for an example.

Great input guys! Chacal87, that first pictures is priceless. In the backcountry with horses, hunting with your father. What a shot.

Monday we are going to ride and take a couple firecrackers with us, stop, walk off and light one at a time. See what happens. The horses have been around slaughtering operations, just never in the field. And never needing to be tied to them. Starting to lean towards taking a pack horse with us.

Vicks is a great tip and one I've used on myself at times. PVC for snakebite? Sounds reasonable, I didn't know horses couldn't breath through their mouths.

We are in a unique situation in that I'm totally new to horses and she and the horses are totally new to hunting. We're a competent group, with plenty of skill and experience, but we're combining our lives and interests. For the better I say.

The Fuctional Horsmanship channel on youtube has a couple videos on exposing and training horses to gunfire.

Something else to check out that has more to do with packing than training is When Mules Wear Diamonds.  Stacy has more back country experience and knowledge than most "experts" and lots of funny stories in the book as well.  

He covers a variety of knots and hitches used in packing, packing equipment, lifting heavy loads, how to fit a pack saddle, what kinds of rope to use, rope care, and some problem solving techniques.

Stacy's a hoot and I've been fortunate enough to spend some time around him, hear stories he'd never publish, talked about areas we've both packed or hunted in, eat his wife's amazing cooking, and listen to him play lots of original songs on his accordion.  Just wish I'd known him in his younger days so I could have gone on pack trips with him.  

And one more game packing picture just for the hell of it.



Picture of an outfitter I work for guiding hunts in the Selway-Bitterroot Wilderness and one of his packers checking out the rack on a bull that a hunter had killed.

Well, we've been riding the horses. My first, "spring" riding. They didn't get rode much over the winter and seem to think they can do what they want.

Very much enjoying it. We have been lighting one firecracker at a time after we are done from a distance. The horse I ride barely looks. Her big boy got a little jumpy at first, but now doesn't seem bothered by it.

Looking at scabbards and will make a decision soon. Would be nice to find one that would fit a bolt gun or AR.

I grew up on a horse and hunting from horseback.

One of the things to be prepared for is that you will in all liklihood be able to get much closer while on horseback than while walking on 2 feet. If you keep quiet and don't wave your arms around, you will be surprised about how much closer you can get. So don't immediately hop off and begin stalking. See what the animal does and adjust accordingly.

Take your horses over a rise or behind trees, to block the view of you dismounting, and you will have a very enjoyable experience.

Hunting with horses is one of the BEST THINGS IN LIFE. You get farther into the backcountry. You have better food/lodging. And you are much more comfortable. Besides... horses absolutely are the best animals on earth next to a good dog.

Have fun, and don't fret it. As is stated above, I have never had a horse bolt even when I was standing on the reins while I pulled the trigger. Shy away a bit yes... bolt never.

I guess if I was looking to 'train for gunfire' I would begin with a .22. Otherwise... I think you are fine

Springtime rides are always interesting.  Horses that got "fat and sassy" or "cold backed" over the winter.  It doesn't take long if your ride regularly to get them back in the groove of things.

AR's are a bit bulky for saddle guns IMHO.  You'll find yourself searching for slimmer and slimmer rifles if you keep hunting horseback.  Also I view a scabbard like I do a good holster.  Can't stand the generic holsters that the gun flops in with cheesy velcro retention.  Buy a decent leather one that fits your rifle well and you won't regret it.  There are 3 scabbards with my tack, and i need to sit down and make one for my Encore since it doesn't quite fit in my bolt gun scabbard.

Great advice, Chacal87, and Dadnatron as well.

I agree with all of it with one exception, or at least a "caveat":

I have seen rifle stocks get broken when held in scabbards facing the horse's head, (branch or sapling gets caught between horse and rifle - SNAP) and I've also seen horses bolt when the client buttstrokes the horse's head when clumsily trying to get said rifle from scabbard.

For those reasons, I personally prefer to hang the scabbard on the off (right) side of the animal, muzzle angled downward to horse''s brisket, with the scope up, the bolt handle facing outward, and the butt of the gun facing rearward. I'm very tall and have long arms, so it's fairly easy for me to reach over and slide it out of the scabbard, and swing it around and over the horse's rump, even while dismounting. With practice of course-at least it was when I was young and flexible-haven't tried it lately.  
Probably not practical for most riders and some very big horses, though.
The single disadvantage to this method that I can think of is that the rifle could catch something and slide out on the trail, possibly unnoticed. It should probably be secured in the scabbard in timbered country. Enclosed scabbards are nice for that reason, but they slow access to the gun, significantly.
Just something to consider and experiment with, at least. And all of this underscores the biggest reason for the popularity of the '94 Winchester among horsemen of the 19th Century.

Don't get me started on packing compound bows with attached bowquivers full of arrows-a travois, perhaps?

Thought this was a cool picture. Made by an Australian company for special forces use in AFG.



BEST THINGS IN LIFE, huh? I can see that being true. Learning to ride and learning to be friends with a 1000# animal is a very real thing. I must admit, I was hesitant at first, but it, and her, are really growing on me. The girlfriend is extremely cool as well.

Wow! Scabbard design and placement appears to be a debate along the lines of 9mm vs. .45. I am very picky about my holsters and only carry and use quality kydex and leather. Should probably do the same for a scabbard. Found a place online called, "Pack Saddle Shop" that has a leather scabbard made for scoped bolt guns that's around $100 shipped. Simple with a closed end. It looks like a reasonable solution. Cost versus construction, and all that.

We ride again on Wednesday and Thursday. I am commited to being more forceful with my commands. I've been letting her get away with too much. Or so my fearless leader tells me.

Well, I don't really consider scabbard design and placement  a "right or wrong" issue, as much as it is  a matter of knowing the various methods and weighing the flaws and merits of each.
It will simply come down to personal preference in the end-that which works for you.

A couple more random thoughts on the topic of horseback hunting, if I may, most of which you probably know, but just in case:
  Be careful saddling horses in the dark. They really-and I mean REALLY - do not appreciate having a flashlight beam swung across a huge, light-sensitive eyeball!
 Learn basic hoof care and cleaning-check their feet every morning and every night.
  Groom them carefully when saddling-a tiny burr or a fold in a blanket under the saddle can cause a poor dumb beast days of unnecessary misery. Check the underside of the saddle for protruding tacks, etc.
Rub a hot horse dry after unsaddling until he cools off.
Hang the blankets and pads under a tarp to dry out overnight.
Keep a fencing pliers in your saddlebag in case of a nightmare entanglement in discarded fence wire.
Tell your horse every morning that you love him, for there is a slight chance every day on rocky trails, that you just might  have to kill him.


Sorry about that last line; I don't know what got into me.
I was going to delete it but decided not to. Because it's true.

Oh shit, KRONIIK! That last line really caught me off guard this morning. Reading the regulations for Badlands National Park they stipulate that upon the death of an animal inside the park, staff must be notified immediately. Thought it was strange but now that I think about it, well........... I REALLY like these horses. Thinking about having to put one down in the field is an unpleasant thought. Best be ready for it.

Fencing pliers, check. The regular horse maintenance stuff is not an issue. She has been riding and training horses all her life.

I'd love to hunt the Badlands on horseback; I really envy you.
Crazy country, but I love it. You gonna be hunting the grasslands South of Wall?
I know South Dakota has other "badlands", but those are the only ones I'm familiar with. (Prairie dog shooting, mostly).

Well, those and Theodore Roosevelt National Park in two locations in North Dakota. (Family vacation ten years ago.)

Yup. Grasslands south of Wall.

I've only driven through, looking forward to some time on the ground.

This guy has all the man points.

I once had a Canada jay land on my shoulder while riding in the Rockies.    
I suppose that wouldn't be quite the same, though?  

You're right about scabbard placement and being as debated as 9mm vs. .45.  There are a couple of reasons that I prefer my weapon on the onside.  First off it's right there when I dismount.  No need to try to handle my weapon while dismounting or walking around the animal to get to it.  Secondly I end up pulling a pack animal (or string of them) pretty often.  I always hold the leadrope with my right hand, and want the offside (right) side "slick" so that the leadrope doesn't get caught on things like my rifle.  That's also the primary reason I carry my handgun crossdraw when I'm horseback.  

The reason I have my stock towards the head of the horse is so I don't have to swing my leg over and around it when I mount up.  Also When I dismount I tend to be closer to the horses shoulder than his hind end.  

If I'm riding in dense forest I usually have my axe or saw slung from the off side of the horse simply because a leadrope normally doesn't end up catching on them like it can the stock of a rifle.  

Also I pack mine with the sites/optics up so that the scope/sites aren't getting extra stress put on them.  Don't know if it makes a difference, but it always made sense to me.  

This thread has reminded me that I own more scabbards that I realized.  Three of my scabbards (the one for my .22, the one for my lever guns, and the one for my M1) don't have any kind of protective flap to help hold them in.


ETA misread a previous post.

We rode again yesterday. The mare I ride decided to roll. I had no idea what was happening. I'll know better next time.

Jumped off and rolled, glad I'm in good shape. Dang horse.

Update time!

We applied for tags with the area around Wall as our first choice. Tag numbers are way down so we applied separately hoping to draw at least one tag. She drew a tag, I did not. Actually, it's really exciting we got one at all.

She has been working on her marksmanship skills and Sunday after our USPSA event she put 12 of 14 rounds in a 4" circle at 200 yards. The two fliers were still in the 6" circle. .223 bolt gun that's been sighted in with hunting loads.

I continue to improve my horsemanship skills. Much more comfortable in the saddle now. Rode to an arena last Friday and watched her race around. She can really ride. I can barely trot, she can flat out run. I was impressed.

We are pretty excited. We have maps to study and need to contact the rangers in the Grasslands to find out where the current vehicle restrictions are. Hoping to find an area free from ATV riders.

Keep us posted.
We'll need lots of pics!

We'll start with this one.

Good looking horses, well fed.  That buckskin looks like one hell of a horse.  

Looks like your girlfriend has an eye for horse flesh.

She's the real thing, brother.

Has she got a sister?

Ha! As a matter of fact she does. Happily married though. Sorry.

I got lucky and found this one online. Might be worth a shot.

Damn, that's just my luck.  

Seems it's time for more gratuitous riding pictures.  



Note that everything is on my left.  As I stated before I've pulled too many pack strings and done too much roping to hang things off the right side of my saddle.

She has learned how to shoot. This is 14 rounds off the bench with sandbags under the forearm. 200 yards with a bit of wind.

Good shootin! Those critters don't stand a chance so long as she doesn't get buck fever.

"Will a horse let you shoot your rifle while mounted?"

Yes, but only once.

Grew up doing it. Quit when I was a teenager.

It's great, with a good horse.  Never shoot too close to a horse's ears (I.e. by its head).

Well, we made the trip. Storm of the century. I've lived up here all my life and it's the worst I've seen. We stabled the horses on Friday morning and didn't see them again until Monday morning. Had to walk them out. The man where we stabled them has lived in and around the badlands all his life and never lost a horse to weather. His show stock was outside. He lost 10 of 13. Cattle losses are in the thousands. Stock Growers Association is estimating 5% loss. We hunted on foot Sunday and came close to killing a buck. Had does 35 yards from us. Pretty cool. The whole situation is a shame but we made it out no worse for wear. I'll post some other pictures later.

Saturday morning.

WOW!
I didn't know you guys got hit THAT hard!

WOAH! Glad you guys and the horses are alright.  Even if your trip didn't go as planned it's still a good story to tell.  

Apparently being in AZ the last few months has made me soft.  This morning I didn't want to go shoe horses because it was in the low 40's and spitting a little rain...

Main street Wall Saturday afternoon.

The question we came up with was, "What would have happened if that storm hit 36 hours later?". It's been a fun idea to work through.

Looks like you got plenty of advice, so I'll just show you some pictures! I LOVE hunting with horses. There's just nothing like riding at 10,000' + on the back of a steady animal. Dad and I first started about 9 years ago. I killed a big 6x6 NM bull and we were as green an gourds, no idea how to even begin handling and packing an animal that size. But we learned the hard way and the last two bulls were easy to the point that I enjoyed it. Contrary to most, we ride the mules and pack the horses for the simple reason that the horses we bought came from an outfitter and were very experienced at packing game. Now that the mules have "been there, done that" enough, I'd packed them without hesitation.














My then 71 year old Dad with his first bull. Killed at almost 11,000'. Most 41 year old men couldn't do what he did!




My then 74 year old Dad with his bull.




A couple of pics that you'll never see in the glossy pages of hunting magazines:

Wow! Fantastic pictures! And memories as well, I'm sure.

Looking forward to more input as the years go by. I have no horse pictures from our trip, but will get plenty next time.

I've ridden and trained horses all my life and I condition all mine to wear ear plugs.   I've seen a lot of horses over the years with hearing damage from shooting off them.

This is how she rigged up her scabbard. We've identified a bunch of seasons to hunt next year with them.

We can now pull the horses with our own truck.

And girlfriend is now fiance.

Well, fiance is now wife. All or our stuff is running on new rubber, and we hope to hunt antelope and deer this fall. We have a pile of preference points so we should both draw both tags. Ill get antelope for sure. The horses are healthy if a little unridden. It's been a busy year.

October is just around the corner!

We both have antelope tags, and hunt in a couple weeks.

Trying to get miles on the horses before we go.

Tonight.

great pics and story!!!!