This will you started on corn subsidies in Minnesota.

On our family farm, I know we took a lot in with farm grain storage subsidies.

https://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=27000&progcode=corn

Meh, we can do just fine without corn syrup and ethanol.

Ethanol is a scam. Takes tons of water to refine ethanol is actually draining aquifers up here around ethanol plants. Massive waste of precious ground water.

Marginal producers would be pushed out of growing corn and soybeans.  Nebraska, Colorado, parts of Kansas, rough portions of ground in every state.  Particularly areas like Southern Missouri, parts of Kentucky, would be growing hay and cattle, not corn.  Dryland areas of the Western corn belt would shift back to a heavier emphasis on wheat, some grain sorghum which handles drought better than corn.

There would be less corn and soybeans, prices would be higher, food would be more expensive, mostly beef, pork and poultry.  The dollar value of corn in something like corn flakes in insignificant compared to processing, packaging, etc.

In that first year there would be a scramble amongst Ag suppliers to cut prices to maintain market share.  It would be a lean time but the market would respond quickly.  Old retirees who negotiated for bigger cash rent prices when corn was $8 would be back at the kitchen table negotiating back down or they will lose their tenant farmers.

Farmers who are operating deeply in the red and who are basically only servicing the interest on their debt will be forced to sell of a significant portion of what they have bought in the last 10 years, and downsize or go under.

Many farmers remember the 80's very well and have not expanded aggressively, and operate each year without borrowing a dime.  Others are so deep in debt they are just rolling the snowball and ( I presume) praying something will trigger another 2012 where we saw corn briefly touch $8 and soybeans double that.


Farm subsidies are about maintaining a cheap supply of domestic food.  It is a market distortion.

The ethanol mandate is stupid.


Ethanol has a place as a replacement for MTBE.


The idea that the midwest is running out of water is an insane notion that has crept out of California.  You live in the land of 10,000 lakes......

We have no water problems in the midwest.  The Ogalala aquifer is a different animal.

Static water levels in Wells are dropping around here. My mother just had to have her well dug deeper even though it was already 180 ft which is deep for the area she had to go even deeper to find water. A new ethanol plant was put in not too awful far from here a few years ago and static water levels in that area for residential Wells is reported to have dropped 50 ft. You speak of 10,000 lakes which is all great fine and dandy but that is surface water which isn't used for anything other than fishing groundwater can be used up and is being used faster than replenished.

Yes, I do. 

First off, when they wanted to put in a production plant around here to refine corn into ethanol, I attended some of the meetings. The estimates for the plant at that time was approximately 6 net gallons of water used in refinement operations per gallon of ethanol produced (water not able to be recycled, I think they used the term "expended"). That adds up fast. There were some speakers both for and against the refinement plant. In the end, the township denied the permit to build the plant due to the very real issue of residential wells running dry and homeowners having to dig wells deeper to compensate. The plant did end up going down the road to the next township and getting a permit, but they had to agree to pay for digging wells deeper for residents within x diameter within x years who's wells ran dry.

Then, there is the corn production itself to meet the demand (mandate) of ethanol production, and get the subsidy money. Farmers are now planting corn in places that corn was NEVER planted, and there didn't use to be corn there for good reason. The soil in some of these areas up here is WAAAAY too sandy for corn. The compensation to that is are HUGE wells for irrigation. Many residents report water levels dropping in residential wells in surrounding areas. 

I have the well report from the 80's when the well was dug at our property. At the time, static water level was 40' down (we live on a hill). Last time I dropped a rope to see what my static level was, it was at about 65 feet.

Is the ethanol mandate responsible for it all? Probably not. BUT that type of draw from heavy irrigation and then water usage in refinement of ethanol is a LOT, and for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sure, we can keep digging deeper wells, just like we can keep drilling for more oil. However, if we keep pumping and expanding at the rate we have been up here, we may find ourselves in quite the pickle eventually. I'm not so much concerned with the 50 year or even 100 year. I'm concerned about further out than that. Water is a valuable resource. Tanker ships have been caught in the Great Lakes actually stealing the fresh water to take back to their countries.

Does MN have plenty of water? Well, we share an aquifer with other areas, but yes. At least for now. You can't count standing surface water (lakes/rivers). That is runoff from rain/snow. It isn't (and can't be) used for anything other than irrigating your lawn with it (actually illegal in many places). And our lakes can and DO dry up. When the Dust Bowl happened, we were in drought too. It was VERY common for lake beds to be turned into garden beds in those years. Still kind of moist, and insanely fertile soil. My Great Grandmother used to talk about it.

So much in AG ties back to subsidies. These subsidies are supposed to give us cheap food, cheap fuel (ethanol is more expensive to produce than oil, even WITH subsidies..). Maybe, maybe not. We pay higher taxes to have cheaper food? Kind of like robbing Peter to pay Paul. They money is spent form the checkbook of the American, one way or the other. I'd rather leave a bloated, administrative cost sucking machine (gov't) out of it. The market will find efficiency. We would have to wean off of subsidies at this point (which will never happen), but putting our entire food production capability into the game of Russian Roulette which is politics is going to bite us in the ass one day. The gov't basically controls our food production. I don't like that.

To correct the record, its incorrect to say all you can use lakes/rivers for is irrigation. It might be true in your area (though I doubt it) but I know for the north east pretty much every home on a lake draws their house water (drinking and all other types) from the lake.  Some homes install a filter system but many don't.  

Additionally many of your cities/towns draw from the rivers and lakes for their drinking water.  Its run through a water treatment plant, but its still pulled from those sources. As an example from outside the North East, Fort Leonard Wood in MO pulls approximately 5 million gallons a day out of the rivers that run through it for drinking water and other potable and non-potable uses.

The only reason to drill a well on your property vs. pulling from surface water if available is to minimize the required filtration.  But stating that surface water is only good for irrigating is incorrect.

Municipalities up here have massive wells, usually multiple.

There are extremely few houses that draw lake/river water. I know of one old cabin on a lake that is supposed to have it around here (just a once-a-year cabin type thing), but that is all. 

There MIGHT be some small city on a lake/river up north pulling water, but I highly doubt there are more than a handful.

Freezing winters and all kind of kill the viability of such a system . 

This and my previous post apply to MN, YMMV in other parts of the country.

I bet you'd be surprised at the number of municipalities that are probably pulling from lakes and you don't even realize it.  

I grew up in NH so I know all about freezing winters, they don't affect the system at all.  You run your draw line (if a private residence) into the lake and out deep enough to be under the ice and put a heat trace on the line.  If its a town/city draw its pipes run right under the river/lake to draw.

The vast majority of people think their water comes from wells (when on city/municipalitites) but in reality its coming from lakes/rivers.  I worked heavily on water treatment plants in the north east all through HS and College and I was stunned by the number of folks who have absolutely no idea where their water comes from.  

Even the few towns which had wells had back up pipes into lakes/rivers to ensure they could meet demand.

Having lived or traveled in pretty much every state from NH to CA and having spent several years in the Midwest and CA in particular I have to agree with the poster above who stated the water crisis is manufactured.  CA in particular was screaming about a drought two years ago and bemoaning how they'd never replenish the aquifers and then when they get hammered by rain and everything fills back up to pre-drought levels nobody mentions that.

You forced me to research the subject further. 

Interesting. We are not allowed by LAW to draw water from the lake 200 yards away, but 1/4th of municipal water in MN is from surface water, namely (and as the majority of the stat) MSP and St Cloud drawing off the Mississippi. Some town up on the North Shore draw from Superior, such as Duluth.

I stand corrected, and wonder if the fact that folks in the MSP and St Cloud areas are bat shit crazy and drinking Mississippi water are coincidence or "there's something in the water" 

Very informative thread.  Thank you to all who have contributed.

OP, have you read Ben Falk's book "The Resilient Farm and Homstead"?  It seems relevant to your questions.  Amazon link for info, I found it at the library - https://www.amazon.com/Resilient-Farm-Homestead-Innovative-Permaculture/dp/1603584447?tag=vglnk-c102-20

What do you all think of Elaine Ingham?  She is focused on soil life for productivity.

I wasn't familiar with that book.  I might have to check it out the next time I'm stocking up on new reading material.

Good thread, I have a few thoughts on it, I'll start with a bit of my background.

I've been involved with alt agriculture for a few years, starting around 1995, haven't been as active lately. I was active in the Minnesota Sustainable Farming association. Gene Logsdon has been mentioned a few times. I give his book The Contrary Farmer credit/blame for pitching my corporate life and moving back to where I grew up in central Minnesota. He also gets some credit for me finding my DW on a homesteading forum (she was a fan of his as well).

My first venture was a rotational grazing dairy that I started with a BIL. We started in 1996, fenced about 200 acres, and built a swing 16 parlor. By 2001 we were certified organic and milking 120 cows. We had an application in to Organic Valley to start selling milk and then 9/11 happened. With all the disruptions in the market, Organic Valley came back to us and said they couldn't bring us on. Conventional milk prices also bottomed out and we couldn't afford to keep the herd organic so we made the decision to sell out. I ended up selling that farm, got married to a terrific gal from Florida (beekeeper), then bought the farm we are on now. It's 240 acres, 120 tillable. Farmed it for awhile, now have most of the tillable rented out. Still put up some hay, have a big garden, and tend to some bees.

As far as subsidies go, I'm certainly no fan of the current system. At the same time, I don't bear any animosity toward the farmers that have survived as some others seem to. They have adapted as the game has changed, more power to them.

The current system has evolved over 100 years, ending it overnight would definitely take more than a year to reorganize. Like someone else mentioned it would be like the 80's on steroids (an Uncle lost the family farm in that disaster). Land values would collapse, taking banks with it. All the support industries would go down as well. For those interested, New Zealand provides a case study. They stopped subsidies cold turkey in 1984. In the end it turned out well, but land prices did collapse and they did have to step in and provide assistance. There is no point in doing something like that cold turkey.    

There is also the issue of the government using farm exports for foreign policy. The 80's disaster was at least partly caused by Carter's Russian grain embargo. And you also have the problem of our farmers being impacted by foreign governments subsidizing their farmers.

As far as alternative agriculture goes, I still applaud many of the concepts but am much more cynical than I was 20 years ago. For example, I think every alternative livestock/crop venture I've seen all turned out to be more or less ponzi schemes. Deer, elk, ostriches, alpacas, llamas, Jerusalem artichokes, etc, etc. A few of the early adopters make some money selling breeding stock and seed, everyone else gets left holding the bag. I've seen some real charlatans profit off from unsuspecting farmers, some who still write great sounding articles in Acres magazine.

Conventional agriculture has evolved over the last hundred years and generally works in our various climates, though there are long term issues like erosion and lack of diversity. On the other hand many of the alternative ag ideas I've seen have not stood the test of time. When I started rotational grazing we had a grazing group of 16 members. I think there are 2 left. Most of the direct marketing attempts have met the same fate. One big problem is that most of the farmland is far removed from profitable markets. I was involved with a group that started a co-op to transport produce and meat to the Twin Cities but it eventually died out as well.

The other huge obstacle to alternative ag is labor requirements. You won't find many people these days that are willing to work sunup to sundown. I've seen many startups fail over the years, and a major reason is burnout. There isn't enough hours in the day to get everything done, and not enough profit to hire help. I wonder if Joel Salatin would still be in business if it wasn't for people working for free, selling books, and giving speeches.

I wish I had some answers, this ended up sounding pretty negative. At the end of the day I'm happy that I got back to the country.

You know what kills most fresh startup farms and ranches? It's Blame people are quick to blame things for the reason they don't succeed. It's the Governments fault for paying subsidies. But they never stop and ask what percentage tax did that farmer Pay! Yet if they get a tax deduction it's well earned. It's the weathers fault or disease or market. Being good at agriculture is being diverse changing your business model in a moments notice. You have to keep your eyes on the cash flow. Markets are fickle they can be influenced by the liberal media just making innuendos. Weather half way around the world can influence a market. And yet you people ask the American farmer to compete agains fully subsidized farmers in the world market? There's a reason countries are fully subsidizing Agriculture, it's a Base industry without country's fall! We are so few now in this country that Nationalization is a real threat. Who would stand up for us?

Most people just plain don't have the intestinal fortitude to be a farmer or rancher. The emotional strain of debt literally eats most people. And if you have the money Why Farm?
The Industrialized farm is a product of low prices to feed the masses. Education or there lack of is the main killer of agriculture. Look at the percentage of children that don't understand where their food comes from. Regulations are going to catch the small nitch farms fast. To many news scares people are really easy to freak out and get paranoid. And the Liberal news media just thrives on it.

I propose each of you arm chair quarter backs go borrow a Million dollars and start up a farm. My wife and I did. We're finally paid down after seventeen years to where we can see light at the end of the tunnel.

P.S. My subsidy is $340.00 for Herbicide sense I have to maintain a 100 foot buffer zone a piece of property. Do you recon I could live without it? But I also paid $7200.00 taxes not county property taxes. And I bet there's someone somewhere that resents me getting that measly amount of money?

What is it, like 90+% of all business startups fail within 10 years? So in reality my experience probably just mirrors startups in general and I'm sure many of the same reasons apply.  

I think the biggest problem in my area is that it is a relatively poor area and the nearest decent market is an hour and a half away, and the biggest market 3 hours away. The local population doesn't have the disposable income to pay a premium for food, so you are basically competing with Walmart. The marketing co-op had some good years but in the end it was just too much overhead for transportation and labor.  

As far as the dairy/grazing operations that I saw startup, people with no prior experience, I think the learning curve was just too steep. I saw some real disasters with herd health, mastitis, calf scours, etc. At the time we were trying to replicate the New Zealand style of dairying, and even the experienced dairyman had problems with things like getting cows bred back. Our cattle genetics were different, the climate was different, etc, etc.
 
I think maybe farmers that are getting squeezed by the market, get big or get out forces, desperate to stay on the land, are probably more susceptible to some of the scams. Look up the 'Jerusalem Artichoke Scandal' from back in the 80's.

But still many of the alt ag ideas get great press but when you look at the long term results they are just not there. Too much labor, not enough profit. The joke around here is that as soon a farm or enterprise gets coverage in the local paper they are destined to go out of business. The latest was a beautiful organic orchard.

That's funny because that is the latest here in MN. We have some good sized breweries like Surly's that are trying to source hops here in the state. I've been thinking about trying to grow it just for my own use :)

I know it doesn't fit the 'model'
 But I think what I did today was sustainable.  Fed some hogs corn that I grew (mixed with bean meal and mineral from a local supplier.)

And put nitrogen on corn to feed for next year.

Attached File

One benefit to applying fertilizer like anhydrous is that it is uniform. 

I can post a pic or short vid of a part of my garden that did not get any manure last year before plowing. The difference in the oats/peas is extremely significant. 

I was thinking today, what is "sustainable" as far as this thread is concerned? 

If it is merely a farm producing something to finish the year in the black, then we are there. Since so much is subsidized and .gov fingers so deep into AG, the rules for that game can change at any time. What was a surefire thing may not be next year. Like I mentioned earlier, politics is playing Russian Roulette. Could a farm pivot with the politics? Maybe. But what would the farm look like after? When an entity depends on a revenue source, the entity becomes subservient to that revenue. If the .gov came and told a conventional farm that they have to convert to sugar beet and only grow sugar beet or loose funding, would the farmer do it? What about the cost of conversion? What if the land isn't suitable for sugar beet? Could be anything, but when you get in bed with politicians, you are along for whatever ride they give you.

If it is infinite, productive usage of the land, then things change. I would argue that parts of this planet have been under cultivation for 10,000 years. What they were doing probably works long term..

Growing up on the farm, we got .gov grants, we got a lot of funds from the .gov storage program. I wasn't in the know of everything (there was an accountant that actually ran everything for the farm, I'm not sure any of us knew every program we were signed up for), but trying to grow conventional corn/beans w/o them would barely have turned enough profit for the farm to run, much less provide for a family.

I think about .gov getting further and further into AG and all I can think about is British farms during WW2. The farm was only operating under direction of the state, and if a farmer didn't produce what the state expected, the farmer was kicked off the farm. Boom, gone. Let the .gov into your life and it gives them an excuse to tell you what to do. 

I dunno, was just pondering.

I've never received a grant, never even heard of such a thing.

I do buy crop insurance.   It is subsidized.  Never had a claim.  So all that subsidy goes to the insurance company.

Had a disaster payment a few years ago.  I guess I could have burnt the check.  My competitors will cash their's.   If I want to stay competitive, I will do the same.


I've never lobbied congress for grants or subsidies.  I favor free markets.  But I won't cut my own throat.


This thread is the first place I ever heard of agricultural grants.

Really? Grants and programs galore are out there.

As long as it keeps the bills paid and a chance to pass it on to your kids and your conscious is clear.

Lurking the thread because it's relevant to my longterm aspirations down the road....in any case, he is right. If we can wean back on the government funded subsidies and programs it would be great, but I'll be the first person to defend subsidies for farms and hardworking American tax paying business owners over leeches in big cities living on the gov dime while contributing absolutely nothing to society. Cut that stuff first, start paying down our debt and then figure out a long term solution to agriculture.

Ran into this thread by accident but and was rather excited about it.   Not anymore.  

This whole thread is a pissing match between "cidiots" and their "sustainable farms", A couple real farmers, someone with a garden and a chicken that thinks they know all about farming because of it, and people that have no idea about any of this but still have an opinion on what's good and what's not.

I farm 130 acres. Have cattle, and I raise crops.  As a hobby farm, there's very little money in it.

If you want to make money, you have to have or rent acreage and use modern practices, Plain and simple. If you want to live poor but say you did it yourself, go buy a little farm.

So because you can't make a decent living off of 130 acres that means it can't be done?  That probably sounds a little more combative than I intended it to.  I hope you'll stick around and educate all us cidiots.  If you'll indulge me, I have a few questions.

How many head do you run?  

Are they for beef or dairy?

If they are for beef, at what weight do you sell them?

Do you feed them on pasture, hay, or grains?  If a mix, what percentage of each and during which parts of the year?

How does your operation work?  Meaning, do you buy your cattle and raise them to slaughter weight or do you hold back your heifers and cows to expand your operation organically? Or perhaps something else?

What crops do you farm and how many acres do you dedicate to them?  

What are your markets?  

What are your biggest expenses?

In your opinion, what modern practices and scale are required to operate a profitable farm that pays an acceptable wage?

What qualifies as an acceptable wage to you?

Here are some interesting links that I think fit in this thread:

https://www.homesteadingtoday.com/threads/extreme-composting.342651/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXCLVCJWTU&list=WL&index=6

So because you can't make a decent living off of 130 acres that means it can't be done?  That probably sounds a little more combative than I intended it to.  I hope you'll stick around and educate all us cidiots.  If you'll indulge me, I have a few questions.

Ok, I'll indulge, personal attack or otherwise. Let me start with saying that I never said it couldn't be done. But I will say, if there was a way to do it and it be infinitely profitable small farms wouldn't be a dying industry in the US. Yes, it can be done, but I wouldn't expect brand new equipment every couple years or a lavish lifestyle from all the $$$ you're making on your small farm.

While my initial response was short and lacking detail, I am not farming to make my living. I am farming as my hobby and to maintain a country lifestyle. I'm the 7th generation on our little farm and when my dad was running it, we were a little more serious about farming. I still farm it because I like playing in the dirt.  

How many head do you run?  

My herd ranges from 15-25, though when I was doing cow/calf I had as many as 50. Cow/calf is more time consuming of an operation to run and requires more pasture and barn space for separating and segregating cattle.  

Are they for beef or dairy?

Beef. I typically raise either Herefords or Angus sometimes with a Simmental or Limousine cross in them. I'm raising meat cattle vs show cattle so they don't have to be pure bred with fancy genetics.

If they are for beef, at what weight do you sell them?

I run a feed to finish operation. I typically pickup feeder at weights between 300-500lbs and grow them to say 1,100-1,500 lbs. Varies between breeds and the cow itself. 1,200lbs is the goal weight.

Do you feed them on pasture, hay, or grains?  If a mix, what percentage of each and during which parts of the year?

During the spring, summer, and fall months, They are entirely fed on pasture with just a little grain fed to them to keep them friendly. For example a 5 gallon bucket of feed for 20 cattle when I go out back to check on them. Winter months, they get all the hay they care to eat and are given grain once a day.

My cowfeed, usually consists of corn that is supplemented with mineral salts and soybean meal. It's all thrown into the grinder mixer where it's mixed and ground. I mix 400 bushel at a time and store it in a small grain bin in the barn. The corn is in another bin I feed the grinder mixer from and I purchase the salts and bean meal separately. I don't use enough soybeans to warrant another storage bin.


How does your operation work?  Meaning, do you buy your cattle and raise them to slaughter weight or do you hold back your heifers and cows to expand your operation organically? Or perhaps something else?

I raise crops and raise cattle for beef. My cattle are a feed to finish operation where I buy them light and send them to auction when they are of weight. I will sometimes sell to friends or family for market value plus processing fee's and take them to butcher. I am not looking to expand my operation at this time. Nor am I looking to go back into Cow/calf.  

What crops do you farm and how many acres do you dedicate to them?  

Crops vary year to year as fields rotate and weather dictates. I always have a hayfield. The rest varies a bit mostly due to weather during planting season but Corn, Soybeans, Oats (every few years, and mostly just for feeding the couple horses we have) and Wheat being the most common. We've had a few wet years now that make it hard to get crops in. This year I have 30 acres of soybeans planted, 10 acres of Oats and 20 acres of hay. I have 30 acres of woods that are fenced off from livestock and roughly 10 acres of yard/building stuff with the remaining 30 acres pasture for the cows and horses.

What are your markets?  

Primarily local Auctions and Grain Distributors

What are your biggest expenses?

The equipment required to plant, harvest and maintain is the biggest investment but the equipment Maintenance and upkeep is a killer going forward. This year I'd swear everything I own needed a battery. Diesel is a large expense. Between Farm operations and upkeep and excavator projects, it's amazing how much I can use. Other expenses require cash upfront but have their returns (like planting crops, or buying cattle).

In your opinion, what modern practices and scale are required to operate a profitable farm that pays an acceptable wage?

This question is impossible to answer as it's entirely dependent on the type of farming you'd like to do and on how big of a scale. To turn the cattle operation I have more profitable I'd have to buy more cattle and run it more like a feedlot and follow the markets closely to guess when grain is low and cattle prices are high and build and sell my herd accordingly. If I wanted to be more profitable on grain (corn/soybeans) I'd need to plant more acres and probably use better more modern equipment that is GPS guided and electrically monitored for seed rates and fertilizer application based on the soil samples I'd have done in the non harvest seasons. That said, my equipment isn't older than dirt either (well maybe the combine and excavator are) so I do have no till planters and I can do minimal soil fitment before planting which saves time and fuel (when the weather allows and depending if I'm going into sod ground).

What qualifies as an acceptable wage to you?

I think it's pretty tough to live comfortably on less than $60k/year (that can be combined income).

@Corporal_Chaos

@sublimeshooter

You mentioned that you have no interest in expanding your operation but to increase your profits, have you looked into selling direct to consumer? Since you primarily feed grass anyway, you could convert to a 100% grass fed operation fairly easily. Your market may be different, but grass fed (and especially organically raised) beef direct to consumer is a profitable and growing market around here, bringing much higher profits than trying to complete with feed lots at slaughter house prices.

Just a thought.

@Rat_Patrol
Your sentiment is spot on. My assessment of how I grow my beef already fits well into the standards of the commercial market of "grass fed" and even "organic". It'd be incredibly easy if I didn't have a conscience to market my beef as such and make paper records to match. Sadly, the "Organic" term doesn't carry much of a true definition when it comes to consumer goods vs the idea. The other problem with dealing with the consumer (outside of friends and family which I do deal with) is dealing with people. Today's consumer seems to back out of things to easily, then there's the 1/4 idea. Someone that doesn't know, wants a 1/4 expecting all premium cuts. I wont sell less than a 1/2 because of that and still find people astounded with what they don't get....

I personally cant call my Beef organic to my belief for two reasons. #1 The corn I use to finish and keep them friendly is a hybrid "roundup ready" that I do use herbicides on until it's grown enough to outgrow it's weed counterparts. #2 (which I haven't had to do in years) is I'll give a growing animal an antibiotic or insecticide for it's own health and well being (abiding by label requirements) up until it's last couple months where it's being finished.

Also, Grass finished beef sucks! If you get the option for grain fed, vs grass... Choose Grain!  The last month makes a huge difference and if it was primarily grain fed it's last month I promise you'll have better tasting beef than a grass only counterpart.





@Raider14   come on in here bud! This is in your lively hood on a different side of the country.
""

No, you couldn't currently call it organically raised, but you could convert without getting certified (a costly pita). 
Be honest about your product though. Grass fed is easy, and isn't organic. Organic is very specific.

Yes, grass fed is nasty! I've been wanting to experiment with fodder for the grain taste a but you could still call it grass fed since the grain is now young grass.

No getting around dealing with people. Best thing you can do is get regular clients.

Where we get our beef from (getting our last 3/4 before our steer is ready) he is a certified organic farmer, he had a long waiting list for beef. He made a good living. Going through a nasty divorce, which is killing his business now though. May not make it through with his farm still his 

No, you couldn't currently call it organically raised, but you could convert without getting certified (a costly pita).
Be honest about your product though. Grass fed is easy, and isn't organic. Organic is very specific.

I haven't paid attention to the rules in awhile, but I'm pretty sure it's easier to be "organic" than one would expect. (commercially). But I've readily admitted my beef isn't organic as I'm not afraid of chemicals to help and ensure a quality product if they need it.


Yes, grass fed is nasty! I've been wanting to experiment with fodder for the grain taste a but you could still call it grass fed since the grain is now young grass.

I feed mine fodder as well when I grow corn. I like happy friendly cows. This year they aren't so lucky. I'm curious of what the fat would look like on a beef finished on fodder though. That's something I've never thought of. I'd expect the same as grass fed only though sadly.

No getting around dealing with people. Best thing you can do is get regular clients.

Nope, sadly not. But I do have a few regulars. I'm just not looking to grow, my work and farm stuff combined keep me comfortable. Honestly if times got terrible, I'd drop all the non essential farm stuff  (mostly crop related equipment) to maintain my lifestyle and property and rebuild again if finances improved.

Wonder if you sprouted corn for fodder what the finished beef would taste like?

Multipliers your corn to go further and you could have the best tasting grass fed beef around!

Thanks for answering my questions.

As an outsider looking in, it seems like a cow/calf operation where steers and heifers are raised to a finish weight would be a better way to make a living raising cattle without needing to achieve the nth degree of efficiency to make it profitable.  

I've been watching a lot of How Farms Work lately on YouTube and those guys buy bottle calves at around $100-$150.  That really seems kind of risky and high maintenance to me.

Since you're only doing it as a hobby though, I can understand why you wouldn't want the increased management and time issues of cow/calf.

How does the pricing structure work on cattle?  Meaning, is the price per pound the same regardless of size or will it be more or less for a bottle calf, feeder, or finished steer?

How does vaccine/antibiotics/medicines fit into your cost basis and how necessary are they?  

With the way you do it, how much grain do you think you would need for each head per year?

How many pounds/tons of hay do you estimate each head consumes over a winter?

Is it possible to get healthy cattle through the winter where you are without grains?  The equipment for making hay seems a lot simpler and less expensive than the equipment for planting and harvesting grains.  Ditto for maintaining pastures.

How necessary are the mineral supplements?  I can see why they might be needed for cattle that eat mostly grain but why are minerals necessary for cattle on pasture and hay?

You just asked a bunch of fair questions, it's late though and I cant dedicate the time to answer in detail at the moment. but..   Cow/calf to finish is more profitable if you have the time and dedication,

You are correct that the prices vary off of weight/size/age. A feeder goes for nearly twice the cost per pound than a finished steer.

I don't medicate unless it's needed. Most years, I don't have to medicate at all.

Grain varies and I'd have to look at my records, but I also don't grain feed to optimize production or I'd have to segregate the young guys from the nearly finished.

With 20 cattle and 2 horses I use roughly 30 1,500lb round bales per year.

It is possible to do it without grain, but the process is a touch slower and the meat quality suffers from it. I don't have any proof, but I think the minerals matter. I think minerals are more important with pigs (which I raise a few of every few years)  A salt/mineral lick can be added with or without grain. I often leave a mineral lick out throughout the year.

Oh lawd.....................no offense to anyone but this thread is a very stereotypical "non-farmer" discussion (and sorry for just seeing this sublime)

OK full disclosure: I have no intentions of keeping up with the family business after I graduate college (December 2018) but my father will do this for the rest of his life and most likely my brother. The family ranch/farm is ~1000 acres and I want to say we have/had ~400 acres in various crops this year (corn and wheat so far, may do milo aka sorghum, wheat was picked up weeks ago. And yes, we are proud to say the corn is a GMO). I will be buying myself acreage (land only goes up afterall, no matter where you are) once I get money in the bank but mainly just as a way to keep from ending up a sex offender from pissing off my back porch while doing a full auto mag dump into the dirt

What OP is describing could be described as a "sustainable" farm.........IF you have a good paying day job to keep up with your hobby.....and that's what it will be: a hobby farm. You will not be paying your bills with it. The most you can squeeze out of it is some cash from the yuppies at the "farmer's" market terrified of the "cancer causing" GMOs they read about on Facebook (BTW there's zero link to cancer). Sure, you'll cut your veggie costs but that's about it and by the time you spend almost all of your free time taking care of it (especially if it is your "wife's" garden) those savings are pretty negligible. And yes, a lot of the "organic" stuff there is the same shit as anywhere else, the organic being the sticker.

If you want to live comfortably farming and only farming, it will take A LOT of dollars and roughly a thousand acres of planted crops and all of the necessary equipment and you'll still be 100% at the mercy of the weather. The only guys I know who mostly don't give a shit about what happens have in excess of 3k acres of crops, most of it long ago paid for (these guys come from old money, family farms that have been around for generations). They also have been able to get out from under the banks and loans from actually being into the black. Now, you MAY be able to get by with less if you go with vegetables but I, nor anyone I know, messes with them on the large scale (biggest garden I know of around here is a half acre, the guy is a doctor and his wife doesn't work. Hardcore dem shitheels who pretend they are "farmers"). From what I've learned over the years, its suckage ffffaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr exceeds that of hand loading a few thousand square bales. Again, touching on GMOs they are the only solution for feeding this world unless you want to go back to every single family not in a factory having a plants in their yard (HOA guys are getting wet at that idea )

As for cattle, you'll need A: a lot of them if you want them to become a real source of income and B: either an ass-ton of decent grazing land with a lot of water or be prepared to dump money into feed, medication, and water. You must also stick to Herefords, angus, and their crosses, no bullshit specialty breeds like santa gertrudis. The vast majority of cattle do not get loaded down with chemicals and such as for some reason it is believed. They get some basic stuff when they are young, yearly shots, stuff when they are sick, etcetcetc just like us. They don't get more simply because its a fucking PITA to do no matter what and $$$$. On the grass fed/organic thing, the vast majority of cattle fall into this line if you just decided to walk up to them in the field and put a bullet in their head. That being said the meat would suck in comparison to the grain finished variety (I honestly don't trust anyone who thinks grass fed tastes better ). The vast majority of meat cattle aren't fed grain for life, they are just fed it for a while before slaughter. I'm not well enough versed in poultry, pork, etc other than "free range" poultry being a complete joke (there is a door leading outside of the barn open during the day, very very very few birds actually use it)

I'm sure there are other things I can touch on but I'm too lazy to type out a complete essay, sorry folks. I don't get too in depth with the monetary side of everything just because I'd rather not know how shitty it gets at times. At the end of the day, I'd highly recommend keeping the 9-5 and if you want to farm, do it as a side gig unless you go big and absolutely know what you are doing. One fuck up can very easily put you into the poor house if you aren't careful.

Been reading this thread and the locked thread and this seems to pretty much sum it up for me.
Some of the stuff being thrown around defies logic.
A lot of different aspects of farming have been touched on here, but the financial one seems to be the least understood.
Do the folks disparaging conventional ag methods and the use of GMO seed really think we're idiots(we being commercial, conventional ag), that we use the methods we use indifferent to profits?
I farm to make a living, the rural lifestyle is just a bonus.
I grow what I think will be the most profitable, on the soil types I have, using the most cost efficient methods I can come up with.  Cost efficient considering me or a family member will be farming here for generations, God willing.
If big ag was so unsustainable how is it that ag operations are trending bigger, not smaller?
And if big ag is unsustainable, how is it that we grow more rice per acre on the same ground my grandfather farmed? Yields have been increasing, feeding our increasing population, without having to
convert more land into agriculture.
A reference was made earlier to cost of production estimates vs current prices.  Yes, things look pretty bleak for this year,  but any farmer that's been in business for more than a few years
knows about price cycles and has enough sense to hold onto money when times are good because times never stay good.
But times never stay bad either so you hang on till prices come back up.

And yes I take whatever subsidy the fed gov gives because if your going to play the game you play by the rules.  And if I was in charge I'd be figuring out how to end subsidies
because they distort the market and that's not good for ag in the long term.  But given the dynamics of world markets and the subsidies handed out by our competition around the world
I'm not sure how this would get done.

Industries trend toward methods that produce more profits, farming is just another industry. New methods are tried and those that work remain, those that don't generate bigger profits get abandoned.
You want to farm like your grandpa, go ahead, just don't throw rocks at me cause I don't