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Posted: 10/2/2014 2:14:22 PM EDT
Ive been watching a lot of YT videos on folks doing their own shallow driven wells (~20ft or so deep; I believe that 25-30 ft or so is the limit for this type of well when using above ground pumps)  where the goal is to be able to expect around 5gpm, though I will use a hand pump.  Im approaching this from a SHTF scenario though, so, for experience points I will use the pile driver method instead of driving with a water hose. (admittedly not quite sure where I can source wellpoints during SHTF though)

There are tons of YT videos, I've watched quite a few and its been great for an education on the subject.  Also some random webpages.  I chose to do a 1 1/4" system instead of 2" since its easier to drive, plus less adaptation required.  Keep in mind that this type of well is replenished from groundwater seepage so you always have to be careful of contamination.  This includes picking a site as well as being mindful of doing things on your property afterwards.  It should be at least 100 ft from septic fill lines/fields.  Also should keep it away from wherever rainwater on your property drains.  Also I think should keep away from the house a bit too (asphalt shingles, paint, deck staining, pets, etc, etc).

This video series of 3 is the most informative so far: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mG4j4I13y4

All this stuff I have coming from Amazon ($278):
Behlen Country 35150212 Steel Post Driver
Irwin Tools 1794482 Magnetic Post Level
3 of Simmons 946 Well Point Drive Coupling
Simmons 1160/PM500 No.2 Pitcher Pump
Seymour Mfg. AU-S6 Post Hole Auger
Simmons 1722-1 1-1/4-Inch by 36-Inch Well Stainless Steel Drive Point (with driving cap)

And Ill get the stainless water pipe and 6" PVC from Lowes.

Basically you auger through as much topsoil and clay as you can and pop down the 6" PVC sections that are all connected then start driving the wellpoint until its top is at least 2 feet (but the deeper you go the more water you can take from it)  into a water-bearing sand/gravel layer and then mount the pump.  There is also a process of flushing all the gunk out then chlorinating the well and continuing to flush until chlorine is gone.  Also Ill send a water sample off to be tested.

And, as always, check your friendly local government office to see if permits or whatever red tape is required.

I have mainly prairie soil, no rocks at all, at least on top, holes here practically dig themselves, so hopefully this should be a good spot for a beginner.  Prior to this week I've known basically nothing about this, so anyone here that does know what theyre doing here please feel free to help out!

For starters, I'd like to have some kind of expectation of how far I will be able to auger, and then how far down Ill have to drive.  Is there anywhere to go to find out where the gravel/sand layers are in my area? ARCGIS has some water table maps but they say my address is 50-75 cm which is obviously not the data Im looking for..

UPDATE 1 - Oct 11, 2014
So we augered to 21ft.  really wet mud we were pulling up.  dropped in the sandpoint and pipe and after the priming water was pumped out, pumped about 5 gal of muddy water up and it ran dry.  waited a few days and measured.  had about 5ft of water at bottom.

Update 2 - Oct 16, 2014
Decided to pump it dry again.  this time no mud!  wasnt crystal clear, but definitely NOTHING like it was last sat.  had a slight tan (not even brown) tint to it, i guess thats sand?  This time got about 3 mop buckets of water before I jheard the sandpoint sucking from its top holes down at the bottom so i stopped pumping.  I guess this weekend we will pump it dry as we can and continue augering so as to get as much water on top of the sandpoint as possible.  will prep some 4"casing as well and get a few bags of small rocks to pack the outside of the casing.  i guess ill also get a foot/check valve to use to keep my prime, and will also prob convert to all PVC and save this galv pipe for if i ever do another one and it requires driving.

Did I just get lucky?

So i let the fence post driver come up a bit tooo far and wasnt paying close enough attention.  Sitting in er now waiting for ct scan and some staples

Ok pounded a total of about 6 ft down from the bottom on the hole.  The progressvjust stopped.  Another 10 mins of pounding does absolutely nothing.  I either hit a rock or maybe hardpan?
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:16:16 PM EDT
[#1]
DUDE!~!!



I want to do this so bad.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:27:11 PM EDT
[#2]
great lets do it at the same time.  maybe we can keep out of the ditch.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:28:30 PM EDT
[#3]

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Quoted:


great lets do it at the same time.  maybe we can keep out of the ditch.
View Quote
Count me in. Do you have links to the parts you ordered?



I really need to install two of these, (one for livestock and one for the 10+ acres of farmland) I'm just mainly worried about the fact that I live on the side of the Appalachian mountains.



 
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:28:58 PM EDT
[#4]
Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:35:02 PM EDT
[#5]
those descriptions will pull up on amazon, all those were prime eligible.  Im actually waffling on using the PVC casing.  still need to do some more research
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:37:46 PM EDT
[#6]
I am thinking of one for irrigation, just first water, I am about 8' above and 450' away from a creek
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 2:39:27 PM EDT
[#7]
I can't decide if I want to do like you or...

FloJak

added to existing 100' well.

I will probably go the cheaper route. Pressurizing my existing plumbing does no good without a water heater.

If I had an outdoor wood boiler for running the water heater....
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:47:37 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.
View Quote


the one I spoke told me that they werent aware of anyone around here with any luck on sandpoint wells.  What did yours say as far as how deep water bearing sand/gravel was concerned?
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 3:50:02 PM EDT
[#9]

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Quoted:
the one I spoke told me that they werent aware of anyone around here with any luck on sandpoint wells.  What did yours say as far as how deep water bearing sand/gravel was concerned?
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Quoted:



Quoted:

Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.




the one I spoke told me that they werent aware of anyone around here with any luck on sandpoint wells.  What did yours say as far as how deep water bearing sand/gravel was concerned?


He said 25-50 feet for ground water, and like 250+ for aquifer.
 
Link Posted: 10/2/2014 5:03:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 3:26:23 AM EDT
[#11]
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Quoted:
DUDE!~!!

I want to do this so bad.
View Quote




Having hand pounded a couple as a kid, it's an over rated past time.
Good shoulder and tricep work out though, and if you have beer drinking buddies, it can be Huck Finned with a case or two, and a bon fire.

Those pitcher pumps freeze, if precautions aren't taken.
Make sure to pick a spot within reach of an extension cord, and in an area you wont be backing a grain wagon into.



Link Posted: 10/3/2014 9:23:01 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:




Having hand pounded a couple as a kid, it's an over rated past time.
Good shoulder and tricep work out though, and if you have beer drinking buddies, it can be Huck Finned with a case or two, and a bon fire.

Those pitcher pumps freeze, if precautions aren't taken.
Make sure to pick a spot within reach of an extension cord, and in an area you wont be backing a grain wagon into.



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Quoted:
Quoted:
DUDE!~!!

I want to do this so bad.




Having hand pounded a couple as a kid, it's an over rated past time.
Good shoulder and tricep work out though, and if you have beer drinking buddies, it can be Huck Finned with a case or two, and a bon fire.

Those pitcher pumps freeze, if precautions aren't taken.
Make sure to pick a spot within reach of an extension cord, and in an area you wont be backing a grain wagon into.





yes from what I understand, the folks up north that do these wells say that the 6" PVC capsule method will keep warm (warmer than air up top) air up on the pitcher, so thats why Im leaning toward doing that extra part.

assuming there even is any water bearing layer of gravel and sand where Im at.  Im preparing myself for that possiblilty, only 1 way to find out.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 4:19:02 PM EDT
[#13]
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Quoted:
Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.
View Quote


Since I moved from a place with a well to one without a few months ago, this thread inspired me to call the local well guy. He said I would be looking at about 700 ft. I guess I won't be doing that by hand.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 5:47:04 PM EDT
[#14]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


yes from what I understand, the folks up north that do these wells say that the 6" PVC capsule method will keep warm (warmer than air up top) air up on the pitcher, so thats why Im leaning toward doing that extra part.

assuming there even is any water bearing layer of gravel and sand where Im at.  Im preparing myself for that possiblilty, only 1 way to find out.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
DUDE!~!!

I want to do this so bad.




Having hand pounded a couple as a kid, it's an over rated past time.
Good shoulder and tricep work out though, and if you have beer drinking buddies, it can be Huck Finned with a case or two, and a bon fire.

Those pitcher pumps freeze, if precautions aren't taken.
Make sure to pick a spot within reach of an extension cord, and in an area you wont be backing a grain wagon into.





yes from what I understand, the folks up north that do these wells say that the 6" PVC capsule method will keep warm (warmer than air up top) air up on the pitcher, so thats why Im leaning toward doing that extra part.

assuming there even is any water bearing layer of gravel and sand where Im at.  Im preparing myself for that possiblilty, only 1 way to find out.


Hay bale Igloo, with a good and heavy canvass tarp over 2x4's laid over the top, and a 40w bulb in a automotive drop light hung on the pitcher.
Keeping the ground from freezing too deep is half the battle. Thermostat plugs set to click on at 40 and off at 50 are a godsend.
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 5:47:30 PM EDT
[#15]

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Quoted:
Since I moved from a place with a well to one without a few months ago, this thread inspired me to call the local well guy. He said I would be looking at about 700 ft. I guess I won't be doing that by hand.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:



Quoted:

Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.




Since I moved from a place with a well to one without a few months ago, this thread inspired me to call the local well guy. He said I would be looking at about 700 ft. I guess I won't be doing that by hand.
He's probably talking about a regular well.



Call and ask about a shallow well, like for livestock.



 
Link Posted: 10/3/2014 7:23:43 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 10/6/2014 1:01:56 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
He's probably talking about a regular well.

Call and ask about a shallow well, like for livestock.
 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Also, I called the local well drilling places and asked them for the expected depth in my area. They were pretty cool about it.


Since I moved from a place with a well to one without a few months ago, this thread inspired me to call the local well guy. He said I would be looking at about 700 ft. I guess I won't be doing that by hand.
He's probably talking about a regular well.

Call and ask about a shallow well, like for livestock.
 


We discussed that, when I called. I have a running creek on the N side which I can use to water the livestock. I plan to put in a hydraulic ram pump to fill my tank/small pond (currently has less than 1" in it) and let the overflow return to the creek. (I asked about the legalities of that; he assured me it's OK due to the small acreage and intended use. Yes, I still plan to confirm via further research.) If I had to, I could purify for personal use. The elevation differences are pretty significant from house to tank and then tank to creek. I haven't checked with the GPS, but my guess is at least 30' at each interval. So, at the house, a 30' well only gets down to the level of the tank. I'm not sure of the soil composition here and where/if I will hit bedrock.

But, this thread's not about me. I'm looking forward to more updates from OP, et al.
Link Posted: 10/6/2014 1:22:27 PM EDT
[#18]
got almost all of my amazon stuff.  need to go to lowes and get some auger extensions and water pipe and the couplings for them.  oh and pipe tape too.  oh and an extra pipe wrench
Link Posted: 10/7/2014 12:51:34 AM EDT
[#19]
I have a couple sand point wells at properties in the sand hills.  I didn't put them in, but they seem like they work ok there.  Most places water is too far away for them to work.  Im not sure how easy it would be to put into harder soil.

If you want to try the additional hand pump in your current submersible casing you need to make sure it is not a 4" casing.  5" might work, but I can tell you 4 does not.

At my place I had to put in a new well when we bought it.  The previous owner used the windmill to fill a cistern and then a jet pump to pressure the house.  I had a drilling co put my casing in.  192ft  138ft to water.  Then I set the submersible by myself and did all the plumbing and wiring.  Kind of tricky lowering a pump that far using a rope tied to the pickup.....
Link Posted: 10/7/2014 11:34:15 AM EDT
[#20]
Just spoke to a state geologist in tuscaloosa, unlike all the well drillers I spoke to he actually knew exactly what I was talking about and had actually done a few of these sandpoint wells himself in his younger days in FL with his dad and brother.

I had previously given him my address to research and he seemed to be under the impression that based on my particular area (avg rainfall, 1.5 miles from river, flat, between local hilly areas and river), while there were really no area reports locally from well drillers, that I should have a reasonbly high expectation of success within 20ft.
Link Posted: 10/7/2014 1:51:08 PM EDT
[#21]
20ft! That rocks!
Link Posted: 10/7/2014 3:53:51 PM EDT
[#22]
I had a shallow well in PA that I had to redo.



That was no freaking fun... Took my brother and I about 3 days to hammer it through all the rock there.



Helped my Dad do one here in FL about 15 years ago. Here in the sand you can just use a 30' (3 10' sections glued together) PVC sleeve with notches cut on the end and the top end capped with a garden hose adapter on it. Turn on the water and twist it back and forth, and it drills itself. When you are done, drop your pvc point and pipe in, and pull the sleeve back out. Took less than an hour.
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 11:54:39 AM EDT
[#23]
Augering now.  First 7 ft was super easy, 30 min.  Easy topsoil.  Then hit clay and this is very tough work.  Really hard clay. Pulling up what looks like really big  pencil shavings  10 ft of this clay so far and taking a break.  Getting a little worried that ill suffer through just clay till 25 ft deep. That will suck. This is very hard. Even have a good helper and its still long and hard.  One layer of the clay was all white for nearly a foot now its back to red and white again
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 3:09:39 PM EDT
[#24]
I'm real interested in your project. Do you have some pictures to post when you finish?
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 3:51:54 PM EDT
[#25]
So!  After the short break, the first auger payload had a bit of very wet, muddy clay on the top!  So must have had some seepage during the break.  We continued to 17 ft and had much less compacted clay. Still dry but more sandy i guess.  At this point we are out of auger extensioms and had to go to lowes to get more auger extensions.  So after about 1.5 hrs...

Water at bottom!!  Guess had some nice seepage.  Continued auger, get to 21 ft and the payload we pull up is very very heavy wet wet mud. We think at this point its time to use the pile driver?  I guess we could cintinue with auger, because i dont believe we were just digging a loose cavity, i believe we could still auger deeper, but the auger plus payload to pull up is very heavy and were kind of getting tired.  Its game time anyways (WAR EAGLE) so we put the sandpoint and 20ft of water pipe in to measure level.   There was 2 ft of water at bottom.  Will check later to see if more seepage gets deeper at halftime.

Someone tell me if we should jist keep augering?

idnt really take too many pics.  Did get 2 of my uncle holding auger and extensions at one point.  I thik at 15ft.
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 6:09:02 PM EDT
[#26]
So at halftime the water level was about 15 ft down so the sandpoint has about 2 ft of water over it.
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 7:40:51 PM EDT
[#27]

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Quoted:


So at halftime the water level was about 15 ft down so the sandpoint has about 2 ft of water over it.
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That rocks man!



 
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 9:05:15 PM EDT
[#28]
well not really.  I dont think this is going to work out.  after the game we went out and primed it and pumped and got about 6 gal of really muddy water.  then it just ran dry.

will talk to that geologist on monday.  but at this point my guess is that we didnt hit a sandy/gravely layer we need?  like i said the auger was just pulling up wet wet mud at 21ft.

so its 21ft deep now.  all by augering, no pounding!  i suppose we could go back and redrain later and auger some more to try to get to some water-bearing sand/gravel but ill see what that geologist says first.  and some guys on the well drilling forums.
Link Posted: 10/11/2014 9:51:26 PM EDT
[#29]

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well not really.  I dont think this is going to work out.  after the game we went out and primed it and pumped and got about 6 gal of really muddy water.  then it just ran dry.



will talk to that geologist on monday.  but at this point my guess is that we didnt hit a sandy/gravely layer we need?  like i said the auger was just pulling up wet wet mud at 21ft.



so its 21ft deep now.  all by augering, no pounding!  i suppose we could go back and redrain later and auger some more to try to get to some water-bearing sand/gravel but ill see what that geologist says first.  and some guys on the well drilling forums.
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IIRC, you have to drill deeper, and add your own sand/gravel layer at the bottom as a filter.
 
Link Posted: 10/12/2014 12:30:40 AM EDT
[#30]
When you reach the end of what you can auger are you going to pound it in further?  

I have a hard time believing that well drillers there are not required to keep records when they drill.

My last one here listed every type of soil he came across and exactly what height it was located at.  All of this is searchable on the NE gov website.

Adding your own gravel to filter at the bottom is great but only if you hit a saturated gravel layer.  If you only have saturated clay then you wont be able to get enough out of it.
Link Posted: 10/12/2014 1:55:28 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
When you reach the end of what you can auger are you going to pound it in further?  

I have a hard time believing that well drillers there are not required to keep records when they drill.

My last one here listed every type of soil he came across and exactly what height it was located at.  All of this is searchable on the NE gov website.
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Quoted:
When you reach the end of what you can auger are you going to pound it in further?  

I have a hard time believing that well drillers there are not required to keep records when they drill.

My last one here listed every type of soil he came across and exactly what height it was located at.  All of this is searchable on the NE gov website.

The geologist I spoke to said they were supposed to but he said they didn't. And he couldn't find any records of any around me


Adding your own gravel to filter at the bottom is great but only if you hit a saturated gravel layer.  If you only have saturated clay then you wont be able to get enough out of it.

@$@%# fml
Link Posted: 10/12/2014 10:36:40 PM EDT
[#32]
this is just an idea of what they sometimes do up here.




i realize it would be a gamble and a lot more work. but it would gain you a few more feet of depth.

the pump and bladder tank are down there. a little cramped but you can work on them down there.

ETA: this is my favorite sub forum. i find the projects you guys do inspire me. i just rarely have anything to add.
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 9:22:38 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:

The geologist I spoke to said they were supposed to but he said they didn't. And he couldn't find any records of any around me


@$@%# fml
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Quoted:
Quoted:
When you reach the end of what you can auger are you going to pound it in further?  

I have a hard time believing that well drillers there are not required to keep records when they drill.

My last one here listed every type of soil he came across and exactly what height it was located at.  All of this is searchable on the NE gov website.

The geologist I spoke to said they were supposed to but he said they didn't. And he couldn't find any records of any around me


Adding your own gravel to filter at the bottom is great but only if you hit a saturated gravel layer.  If you only have saturated clay then you wont be able to get enough out of it.

@$@%# fml



Were you going to go ahead and try to pound it in further?
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 11:32:37 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:
Were you going to go ahead and try to pound it in further?
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no idea what to do.  will talk to the state geologist later today.
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 2:00:25 PM EDT
[#35]
Why stop? You are this far can't you just keep going deeper?  Our did I miss something about how deep you can go?
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 3:52:31 PM EDT
[#36]
limit of a pitcher pump is 25ft.  and I am trying to put it on 1.25" pipe so there is no option for an bottom-pump.  and i guess theres no guarantee there are any gravel/sand layers down there below 21ft either.  my mom next county over has an aquifier well down at 65ft though.  I suppose I could pull it all up and put in some 2" piping and see how deep it takes to hit an aquifier.  But I wouldnt auger that.  right now, at 21 ft, augering has become extermely tedious and difficult, adding another auger extension will make it practically impossible.  Would instead have to use some water jetting for that.  and then one of those bottom of the pipe pumps whenever i did hit the aquifier

will figure it all out what I want to do and update
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 5:54:35 PM EDT
[#37]
oh and 1 more thing, my uncle who was helping says the last 2 auger payloads were less clay'ey and more sandy but Im not sure.  just looked like wet wet mud to me.  im thinking maybe he says it was less clay'ey because it was so wet by then.
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 6:07:53 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
limit of a pitcher pump is 25ft.  and I am trying to put it on 1.25" pipe so there is no option for an bottom-pump.  and i guess theres no guarantee there are any gravel/sand layers down there below 21ft either.  my mom next county over has an aquifier well down at 65ft though.  I suppose I could pull it all up and put in some 2" piping and see how deep it takes to hit an aquifier.  But I wouldnt auger that.  right now, at 21 ft, augering has become extermely tedious and difficult, adding another auger extension will make it practically impossible.  Would instead have to use some water jetting for that.  and then one of those bottom of the pipe pumps whenever i did hit the aquifier

will figure it all out what I want to do and update
View Quote


I haven't looked at those pitcher pumps, but that is correct about 25ft or so.  Will the 25ft pump drop pipe fit inside the 1.25" pipe or its just attached to the end of it?

What you aren't considering is that the static water level only needs to be above your 25ft for it to lift from there.  You already have static water where you need it, now all you need is a faster recharge.  You MIGHT get faster recharge from deeper down via the pipe if you went down and hit gravel.  The fact that the gravel is not within 25ft doesn't matter if your well pipe allows water movement.

If that doesn't make sense I will try to rewrite it.


Link Posted: 10/13/2014 6:15:46 PM EDT
[#39]
Just guessing, but if you were to stop augering and just start pounding the sand point in you should have easy going if it is wet and sandier??  I wouldn't think it would be too hard to get your pipe down another 10-20ft, especially since there is no resistance in the first 20ft.   Water will then equalize up the pipe to the static water level and keep you from running dry.

We aren't talking about an irrigation well where you need 1000 gpm here, this idea should work with a hand pump.
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 7:27:08 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:
Will the 25ft pump drop pipe fit inside the 1.25" pipe or its just attached to the end of it?
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I dont understand your question here.  Its just a pitcher pump on 20ft of 1.25in pipe with a 3ft sandpoint at bottom.

And you and someone else suggested going deeper.  But im concerned that even if i do, the fact that the sand would be below the mud layer would mean my water will never go clear.  Does that make sense?
Link Posted: 10/13/2014 9:35:50 PM EDT
[#41]
Seems like you need to pound the point down into the undisturbed soil to get away from the mud and hopefully find soil that lets the water run beter (gravel)

I am  thinking you have the hard part done and are near success .

Mud and such would seem to be expected in any soil just disturbed and might take a bit to settle out and clear itself up.

I am no authority , just thinking as I write.

Tag for further outcome
Link Posted: 10/14/2014 8:03:23 AM EDT
[#42]
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Quoted:


I dont understand your question here.  Its just a pitcher pump on 20ft of 1.25in pipe with a 3ft sandpoint at bottom.

And you and someone else suggested going deeper.  But im concerned that even if i do, the fact that the sand would be below the mud layer would mean my water will never go clear.  Does that make sense?
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Quoted:
Will the 25ft pump drop pipe fit inside the 1.25" pipe or its just attached to the end of it?


I dont understand your question here.  Its just a pitcher pump on 20ft of 1.25in pipe with a 3ft sandpoint at bottom.

And you and someone else suggested going deeper.  But im concerned that even if i do, the fact that the sand would be below the mud layer would mean my water will never go clear.  Does that make sense?


Not a worry at all.  The mud is from 0-21ft right?  If you pound it down to 30ft and hit sand then your sandpoint is at 27-30ft or so.  The sand point is only porous at the very bottom, not in the mud layer. The only reason you are getting mud now is that your sand point is resting in the mud.  If you are deep then all your water will be coming up from the sand which is located lower.  The trick for your pump is that the clear water will be pushed up into the 17-20ft zone by natural forces.   That means your pump only has to do the final lifiting.  Any sediment in there will be cleaned out at you start pumping or will settle out.

Try to add a 10ft stick to your first 20ft stick.  Pound it in and put the pump on, see if that does it.  If it doesn't then put another 10ft on it and repeat.  It shouldn't be that hard, unless you went pvc instead of galvanized pipe...

Don't worry about my question, I understand what you have now.  From some diagrams some pitcher pumps showed 2 pipes.  One was called the drop pipe and one is the casing. In your case you have no casing just the 1.25 drop pipe.
Link Posted: 10/14/2014 7:03:58 PM EDT
[#43]
The fact that you've hit mud is a sort of promising sign.  Don't forget that the pitcher pump (or above ground centrifugal pump) limitation is based on the water table height, not the depth of the hole.  I.E. if your water table is at 24 feet, but you have to drive a pipe to 35 feet to get clear water, the pitcher pump should still work, since its only pumping from the 24 foot water level, but the point itself will fill the pipe with clean water from 35 feet down.  I use centrifugal pumps on 50 foot wells no problem, however the water table where I live fluctuates between 3-7 feet so its fairly close to the surface.

That Seymour auger is awesome, I'm always finding uses for the thing.  I noticed it gets incredibly difficult to auger much deeper than the standing water table though, as it creates a suction/vacuum on the auger bit and requires increasing amounts of force to 'break' it free of the water to bring it up.  

Don't fret if this particular hole never pans out, with the varying strata you never quite know where the water is at, sometimes a hole just 20 or 30 feet away will turn out to be a completely different animal.  If the hydrologist said you have a chance, its entirely possible a fresh hole on the other side of your property could still produce.  If I were you I'd try and get it down a few more feet and see if you get water, if its there at all, even if its murky, you may be able to just drive a pipe 5 to 10 feet further to find some cleaner water and still be able to use your hand pump.

Good luck, you're definitely on the right track!

Edit: I see the last portion of my post basically copied what Ryan had to say.  Doh!  Keep at it OP!
Link Posted: 10/14/2014 9:43:00 PM EDT
[#44]
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Quoted:
Seems like you need to pound the point down into the undisturbed soil to get away from the mud and hopefully find soil that lets the water run beter (gravel)

I am  thinking you have the hard part done and are near success .

Mud and such would seem to be expected in any soil just disturbed and might take a bit to settle out and clear itself up.

I am no authority , just thinking as I write.

Tag for further outcome
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This is my thoughts too.

With all the time and money spent so far it would seem like a waste to stop now.
Link Posted: 10/14/2014 11:22:43 PM EDT
[#45]
well the geologist couldnt help me out, really he said its just a gamble to try to go any deeper.

so you guys are saying, that since i have muddy water at a water table from 16ft down to the bottom of the hole at 21 ft, that even though its all muddy and will never go clear, that if I were to drive deeper and happen to hit wet sand or wet gravel at, say, 29ft, that this clean water from a completely different layer will be forced up to the muddy water table at 16ft, and my pitcher will work?

and not just that, but that my driving down wont create some leakage from the extremely muddy water above to contaminate the level where the sandpoint is?

yeah i agree, I may spend even more money and rent some kind of drill to see if I can get deeper, maybe switch to 2" and use some inside/bottom pump of some sort.
Link Posted: 10/15/2014 9:52:17 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
well the geologist couldnt help me out, really he said its just a gamble to try to go any deeper.

so you guys are saying, that since i have muddy water at a water table from 16ft down to the bottom of the hole at 21 ft, that even though its all muddy and will never go clear, that if I were to drive deeper and happen to hit wet sand or wet gravel at, say, 29ft, that this clean water from a completely different layer will be forced up to the muddy water table at 16ft, and my pitcher will work?

and not just that, but that my driving down wont create some leakage from the extremely muddy water above to contaminate the level where the sandpoint is?

yeah i agree, I may spend even more money and rent some kind of drill to see if I can get deeper, maybe switch to 2" and use some inside/bottom pump of some sort.
View Quote


The clean water will be forced up the pipe to where the static water level is.  It wont mix with the muddy water because it will all be inside the pipe.  

I would absolutely pound it down further instead of augering out more.  Pounding it down will give it somewhat of a seal.  If you were to auger out that far down then yes the muddy crap will mix because the mud will actually fall to the bottom clean part of the hole.



Link Posted: 10/15/2014 10:05:22 AM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
so you guys are saying, that since i have muddy water at a water table from 16ft down to the bottom of the hole at 21 ft, that even though its all muddy and will never go clear, that if I were to drive deeper and happen to hit wet sand or wet gravel at, say, 29ft, that this clean water from a completely different layer will be forced up to the muddy water table at 16ft, and my pitcher will work?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
so you guys are saying, that since i have muddy water at a water table from 16ft down to the bottom of the hole at 21 ft, that even though its all muddy and will never go clear, that if I were to drive deeper and happen to hit wet sand or wet gravel at, say, 29ft, that this clean water from a completely different layer will be forced up to the muddy water table at 16ft, and my pitcher will work?


Yep.  If you're saying your static water table level is at 16 feet, then yes you can still use a pitcher pump (or centrifugal) if you go deeper.  Even if you put the point down at 50 feet, the (theoretically clean) water would move up the pipe from 50 feet to the water table level at 16 feet.  

and not just that, but that my driving down wont create some leakage from the extremely muddy water above to contaminate the level where the sandpoint is?


Possible, but unlikely.  If you actually were to start driving the well, and no longer digging with the auger, the chance of leakage is almost nonexistent.  You probably need an actual steel sand point though so you can truly drive it in, this is not the place for PVC.  Out here we typically use 2" pipe and 7' long stainless steel sand points.  Galvanized will also work but wont' last as long.  A good point fitting these specs will likely cost between $100-$250.  When you actually drive a well, the earth around the pipe creates a sufficient seal in most soils to separate each strata from each other.  Leakage is highly unlikely.  A simple heavy tamper/pile driver and scaffolding setup (with pulley to manually lift driver and drop it again) can drive a 30 foot well even in dense clay in under a couple hours.  

There's an inherent risk here though, its hard work pulling a point if it never produces, but it is doable.  .  

Edit: I see ryan beat me by a few minutes again
Link Posted: 10/15/2014 12:55:09 PM EDT
[#48]
awesome guys, thanks for all the info..  its a 3ft x 1.25" stainless simmons point.  guess we'll try this weekend after I get out of the woods.  its first weekend of deer season.  Ive got a 20lb fence post driver.  i may need somethinbg better?  not sure about a makeshift rig jsut yet
Link Posted: 10/15/2014 1:25:23 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:
awesome guys, thanks for all the info..  its a 3ft x 1.25" stainless simmons point.  guess we'll try this weekend after I get out of the woods.  its first weekend of deer season.  Ive got a 20lb fence post driver.  i may need somethinbg better?  not sure about a makeshift rig jsut yet
View Quote


Simmons makes good points.  3 ft is a little short, but probably fine if you're only using 1.25" pipe.  Your 20lb post driver will wear your arms out quick driving a point... but will probably work.  Be sure to use a good cap when you drive it so you don't mess the threads up.  You'll want a driving cap to have a shelf that is flush with the top of the pipe, so the force exerts directly into the pipe, not the threads.  Also since you already dug through the first 20 feet it may be easier to drive now that you're into the soft mud.  Pipe dope the shit out of each coupler/joint.  Good luck!
Link Posted: 10/15/2014 2:35:55 PM EDT
[#50]
yes got a driving cap with a small hole at top.  and i do believe it should be easier now in the soft mud.  we doped each coupling of all pipes and havent driven at all yet, but what Ive read says to not dope the threads that the driving cap attaches to.  why is this?
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