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Posted: 5/11/2012 11:37:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4]

Laws vary from state to state, but, generally, a license is needed to engage in aquaculture if you are using wild fish as stock, or if you are using a system that is or can possibly become connected to a waterway, or if the fish and/or plants will be sold commercially.  As you all know, non-native species being released into the wild is a problem throughout the U.S. and they can destroy local fisheries.  Even species that are native to a state but not specifically to a particular pond, lake or river can pose a problem if released there.  In New Hampshire (and I suspect in most/all states), Fish and Game does not allow the transportation of live fish by fisherman unless it is on a specified bait species list.  There are exceptions including those with an aquaculture license.  In NH, a non-commercial aquaculture license allowing you to catch and transport wild fish for stocking your aquaponics system costs $20 a year.  This is in addition to a freshwater fishing license.  Since I've been using wild-caught hornpout/brown bullhead catfish, I have had a non-commercial license.  My point is:  Check the laws specifically in your state to make sure you don't run afoul of any of them.
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I posted a thread last summer (2011) about setting up an aquaponics system in my backyard.  As I had other projects going on I decided to spend the fall and winter reading up on aquaponics so I'd be ready to set something up this spring.

I'm going to explain the basics so you can understand the photos but the best place to get your information is at Backyard Aquaponics.  It's a forum based out of Australia, but the concepts are the same anywhere.  Honestly, I barely posted there since searching around that site answers just about any questions you have.  

In hydroponics, plants grow in a soil-less media that is cyclically flooded and then drained with fertilizer-rich water.  The plant roots absorb the nutrients/water while flooded, and then absorb oxygen when the media is drained.  The media in which the plants grow can be anything from rockwool to pea gravel.

In aquaculture, fish are grown in ponds.  Plants and weeds absorb fish waste (mainly nitrogen waste) otherwise the ammonia levels would rise to toxic levels and kill all the fish.  Alternatively, the fish are raised in pens and the water flowing through them takes care of any waste.

In aquaponics, aquaculture and hydroponics are combined.  The fish are kept in a tank of some sort and the water from this fish tank drains or is pumped into plant growth media.  The roots absorb nitrogen waste and then the clean water flows back into the fish tank.  

In aquaponics, there is an additional step.  Fish produce a lot of ammonia as waste that is disposed of in the water that surrounds them.  Plants have a difficult time absorbing ammonia but have a much easier time with nitrate.  The additional step in aquaponics is conversion of the ammonia to nitrite by Nitrosoma species of bacteria and then conversion of the nitrite to nitrate by Nitrobacter species of bacteria.  The nitrate is then absorbed by the plant roots.  The bacteria live on the surface of the plant growth media (in my case pea gravel) so the media acts in detoxifying the water for the fish.  Not only is the nitrate better absorbed by plant roots, but nitrate is far less toxic to fish than ammonia if they are both at the same concentrations.

I built a small CHIFT-PIST system and I'm planning on building a bigger one.  In this system, the water level stays contant in the fish tank (CHIFT = Constant Height In Fish Tank) and the water pump is in a sump tank (Pump In Sump Tank).  

The concept is very simple:

1) The fish tank has a drain near the top that drains into a second container filled with plant grown media.
2) This second container floods with water.
3) There is an automatic bell siphon (this is a link on how to build an automatic bell siphon) that drains the water automatically into a third container once the water reaches a certain height.

It looks like this:



In my set-up, I have a 50 gallon drum set up on the ']Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

[span style='font-style: italic;']Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 5/12/2012 1:25:26 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Corporal_Chaos] [#1]
Good, informative write-up covering all of the basics.  I hope you keep us up to date on the progress of your system.  Are you planning this as a trial system, with a larger version in the future?  I really need to get off my ass and get at least a small system put together.  I've had several 100 and 300 gallon troughs, as well as a couple of pond pumps, sitting around for almost a year now.  I finished classes this week, so I think I'll get started once I finish tidying up my soil garden.

EDIT:  You might get some algae blockage with your clear fill hose.
Link Posted: 5/12/2012 9:47:00 AM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Good, informative write-up covering all of the basics.  I hope you keep us up to date on the progress of your system.  Are you planning this as a trial system, with a larger version in the future?  I really need to get off my ass and get at least a small system put together.  I've had several 100 and 300 gallon troughs, as well as a couple of pond pumps, sitting around for almost a year now.  I finished classes this week, so I think I'll get started once I finish tidying up my soil garden.

EDIT:  You might get some algae blockage with your clear fill hose.



Yeah, I will be changing out that tubing.  I'm also going to cover the fish tank somehow to help keep down algea growth.

My plan is to scale it up.  I have a 500 gallon tank pictured here on the left.  On the right is a 300 gallon tank I plan on using for the grow bed.  I have another tank I'll be using as the sump tank.  I wanted to build something on a small scale to make sure I understood the concepts and could actually get it working.  Scaling up will have its problems but I'm confident I can work them all out.

Link Posted: 5/12/2012 9:48:42 AM EDT
[#3]
Thanks for the heads-up on the thread.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/12/2012 10:30:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Thanks for the heads-up on the thread.

TRG


No problem.  You mentioned IBC containers which would be an easier set-up because you could do a grow bed and a fish tank and not use a sump tank.  Everything else would be the same.  Depending on how cold it gets your way, you could grow tilapia.
Link Posted: 5/12/2012 3:22:39 PM EDT
[#5]
I wonder if we could use a ground loop here in Texas to keep the water at a good consistant temperature. High temps are somewhat of a problem in most of Texas. Help limit being too cold in winter also I suspect.
Link Posted: 5/12/2012 7:41:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Thanks for the heads-up on the thread.

TRG


No problem.  You mentioned IBC containers which would be an easier set-up because you could do a grow bed and a fish tank and not use a sump tank.  Everything else would be the same.  Depending on how cold it gets your way, you could grow tilapia.


I decided to dam my creek instead of building an IBC aquaponics system at the moment, but, I plan to follow the thread in case the notion hits me again to make an aquarium/herb garden.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/13/2012 8:31:36 AM EDT
[#7]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Thanks for the heads-up on the thread.

TRG


No problem.  You mentioned IBC containers which would be an easier set-up because you could do a grow bed and a fish tank and not use a sump tank.  Everything else would be the same.  Depending on how cold it gets your way, you could grow tilapia.


I decided to dam my creek instead
of building an IBC aquaponics system at the moment, but, I plan to follow the thread in case the notion hits me again to make an aquarium/herb garden.

TRG


That's great.  I'd be interested to know what kind of drain system you plan on.  I'm thinking something that would keep fish from going over.  I have three 10 inch blue channel catfish that I plan on putting in the big tank and I'm waiting on an order of twenty 3 inch fish.  What fish will you go with?  Blue channel catfish can tolerate extremes of cold and heat.  You could have a killer pond with giant catfish!

I have a trout stream that separates me and my neighbor but it can't be dammed because there isn't enough property that I own around it.  There is still a nice population of trout in it.  It's a great source of clean water (obviously still needs to be sterilized).

Link Posted: 5/13/2012 9:00:43 AM EDT
[#8]
I installed a 300 gallon waterfall/pond in my backyard this spring.



The uv water clarifier went in yesterday

The filter is a divided bed of pea gravel and lava rock with green scrubbers.

I have 2 settling containers in the waterfall and a dozen goldfish.




I have most of the elements to try hydro culture
Link Posted: 5/13/2012 9:45:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
I installed a 300 gallon waterfall/pond in my backyard this spring.

The uv water clarifier went in yesterday
The filter is a divided bed of pea gravel and lava rock with green scrubbers.
I have 2 settling containers in the waterfall and a dozen goldfish.

I have most of the elements to try hydro culture


I would honestly try to get my hands on some blue channel catfish.  The only problem you would likely run into is if the catfish grew faster than the goldfish then they may eat them.  

The design of your set-up doesn't matter as long as all the elements are there.
Link Posted: 5/13/2012 11:37:30 PM EDT
[#10]

I wasn't happy with the side-walls of the container bulging so I put some boards on the sides and then used 2 inexpensive ratchet/straps to tighten it up.  The set-up works great!  The side walls don't bulge out.  The bell siphon is working well.

Another thing, I remember reading that brown bullhead/hornpout catfish don't feed off the water surface.  I'm not sure where I read it but today they came straight to the top and fed.  I'm using trout pellet feed.  They are gorging themselves on it!  I'll have to get a better idea on how much to feed them.  I've been working in the garden and collect worms I come across so they're getting some of those as well.
Link Posted: 5/14/2012 7:17:33 AM EDT
[#11]
On another forum I saw a system that used four air stones and a small pump to lift the water from the sump back in to the main tank.  As I recall, it used very little energy and was supposed to be very effective.

Have you looked in to this?

OP, this page of my thread shows pond pics, materials and water levels Here

It has catfish, bass and perch  that are washed in from a large pond upstream. There is also a healthy population of minnows.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/14/2012 9:07:30 PM EDT
[#12]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
On another forum I saw a system that used four air stones and a small pump to lift the water from the sump back in to the main tank.  As I recall, it used very little energy and was supposed to be very effective.

Have you looked in to this?

OP, this page of my thread shows pond pics, materials and water levels Here

It has catfish, bass and perch  that are washed in from a large pond upstream. There is also a healthy population of minnows.

TRG


I'll have to look into that.  I'm not sure I've come across such a pump.  I have no way to measure the energy consumption.

Thanks for the link to your thread.
Link Posted: 5/14/2012 9:24:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
On another forum I saw a system that used four air stones and a small pump to lift the water from the sump back in to the main tank.  As I recall, it used very little energy and was supposed to be very effective.

Have you looked in to this?

OP, this page of my thread shows pond pics, materials and water levels Here

It has catfish, bass and perch  that are washed in from a large pond upstream. There is also a healthy population of minnows.

TRG


I'll have to look into that.  I'm not sure I've come across such a pump.  I have no way to measure the energy consumption.

Thanks for the link to your thread.


Sounds like an airlift setup.  I think it only works with an extremely low pumping head.

Link Posted: 5/14/2012 10:04:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
On another forum I saw a system that used four air stones and a small pump to lift the water from the sump back in to the main tank.  As I recall, it used very little energy and was supposed to be very effective.

Have you looked in to this?

OP, this page of my thread shows pond pics, materials and water levels Here

It has catfish, bass and perch  that are washed in from a large pond upstream. There is also a healthy population of minnows.

TRG


I'll have to look into that.  I'm not sure I've come across such a pump.  I have no way to measure the energy consumption.

Thanks for the link to your thread.


Sounds like an airlift setup.  I think it only works with an extremely low pumping head.



That sounds right.  I think it only lifts a few inches...4-6"

TRG
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 8:49:22 AM EDT
[#15]
I just started my research and will be setting up aquaponics next year.  

Where are you guys buying your fish from?  I'm thinking about raising Perch/Bluegill/Catfish since I want to eat the fish along with what I grow.
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 8:53:27 AM EDT
[#16]
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I just started my research and will be setting up aquaponics next year.  

Where are you guys buying your fish from?  I'm thinking about raising Perch/Bluegill/Catfish since I want to eat the fish along with what I grow.


Couldn't you just visit a local lake or stream and catch the perch and catfish?

I have carried live fish home from the lake in an ice chest filled with water and even in 5 gallon buckets.  

You only need a few fish for aquaponics.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 12:53:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#17]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I just started my research and will be setting up aquaponics next year.  

Where are you guys buying your fish from?  I'm thinking about raising Perch/Bluegill/Catfish since I want to eat the fish along with what I grow.


Couldn't you just visit a local lake or stream and catch the perch and catfish?

I have carried live fish home from the lake in an ice chest filled with water and even in 5 gallon buckets.  

You only need a few fish for aquaponics.


TRG


+1

I did get some Blue Channel Catfish from the pet store because I wanted to try them out, but I'm planning on getting more local brown bullhead (catfish).  The pond where I get them from is less than 2 miles away.  Why not just fish them instead of raise them?  I can feed them far more than they can get in the wild and the pond is so overpopulated that the fish are stunted in their growth.  

I will also look into Yellow Perch.  I can and do catch those around here as well and they can be raised although not as well as catfish species.  It would be nice to have some variety in the fish.

ETA:  You should have much better options for Blue Channel Catfish in PA as far as being able to buy them from a hatchery/fish farm.  We just don't have that up here which is why I had to get them from a pet store.
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 2:52:59 PM EDT
[#18]
these guys advertise in the local Craigslist:
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 6:30:19 PM EDT
[#19]
Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
these guys advertise in the local Craigslist:


Great link and I've found those guys before.  For the guys who are geographically close by, it would be a great opportunity for Blue Channel Catfish.  They are actually native to NH but in the most northeastern part of the state.  If I actually knew where exactly to fish for them, I'd even be up for a road trip.  But factoring gas/time/effort, it was actually far cheaper to get them at a pet store.  I don't have any personal experience nor have I read about the people at the link.
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 7:56:09 PM EDT
[#20]
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.
Link Posted: 5/15/2012 7:58:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Good find...I was going to start looking at some hatcheries in the area to see what I can purchase.

Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
these guys advertise in the local Craigslist:


Link Posted: 5/16/2012 1:10:38 PM EDT
[#22]
OP:

Will you run this year round?
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 4:59:02 PM EDT
[#23]
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 5:54:40 PM EDT
[#24]
I had a tiger Oscar "tilapia" that started out as a 50 cent piece




and matured to an angry dinner plate sized, Pan fish




They are ~african bluegills











 
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:03:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#25]
Originally Posted By xmission:
OP:

Will you run this year round?


No.  Well, sort of.

The smaller 50 gallon set-up likely not.  

The 500 gallon set-up I'm planning on doing the following:

The ammonia to nitrate-converting bacteria die around 32F.  As you drop the temperature, the bacteria become less efficient at conversion.  Here is a table from this link.

Temperature

The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.

No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)

Nitrobacter is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.


Since the temperatures here get well below 32F and I have no way of bringing the set-up indoors, I can't keep the grow bed going.  Not to mention the fact that I would have serious problems with the sump tank water freezing!

I tried an informal experiment this winter:  I kept 3 catfish in a 20 gallon bucket in my garage and had an air bubbler inside.  The water did have a problem with freezing on the surface for maybe the coldest two-week period.  The fish were NOT fed anything for the entire winter.  Their metabolism slowed down so much that they barely produced any toxic ammonia.  I did do some water exchange, but very little.  They survived the winter no problem and are the 3 catfish I have in the 55 gallon barrel pictured above.

So, my plan for the 500 gallon tank is to:

1) Drain the grow bed since the bacteria will be dead anyway and also drain the sump tank since it will freeze.

2) Use a water pump to circulate the water in the 500 gallon tank to help prevent it from freezing.

3) Use an air bubbler to keep the water oxygenated and help keep it from freezing.

4) I'm not totally discounting a heater to keep the water above freezing, as it may be necessary.  I simply do not have any experience with this beyond the little experiment I did.  I'm in new territory here and there is very little information on the internet about this.

5) Let the fish 'hybernate' through the winter and re-start the set-up in the spring.

That's the plan, anyway.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:07:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MTNmyMag] [#26]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:16:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#27]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

TRG


Are you referring to yellow perch?  If so, they're great up here.  But diet, water, etc. obviously has a huge impact on taste.  I definitely will look into yellow perch to raise but catfish are just so much better suited for any kind of aquaculture from all the reading I've done.  They're much more forgiving in terms of water quality.  



Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


OK, that makes more sense.  We have Yellow Perch and White Perch and they're both great eating.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:19:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TheRedGoat] [#28]
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


Perch.  Native to Texas.  Well, native if you consider there are only two natural lakes in the state.  We call them perch, that makes them perch.  I don't know of any native Texans that tries to figure out if it is sunfish, bluegill, rock perch, yellow ear, etc.

Perch.



I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:26:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#29]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:

Perch.  Native to Texas.

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/20120426_155729.jpg

I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG


Up here, we would call that a sunfish.  And they are not very palatable except for bluegill.  There are a ton of them here in NH and up in Canada where I grew up because people just throw them back.  It must have something to do with the water, diet, etc.  I love catching them on a fly rod for fun as they will take flies off the surface.  Here is an example of one I caught in Canada:

Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:50:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: MTNmyMag] [#30]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


Perch.  Native to Texas.  Well, native if you consider there are only two natural lakes in the state.  We call them perch, that makes them perch.  I don't know of any native Texans that tries to figure out if it is sunfish, bluegill, rock perch, yellow ear, etc.

Perch.

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/20120426_155729.jpg

I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG


What do natural lakes have to do with perch?  ETA what is this "Native" Texan talk are you questioning my heritage?
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:52:38 PM EDT
[#31]
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


Perch.  Native to Texas.

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/20120426_155729.jpg

I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG


Up here, we would call that a sunfish.  And they are not very palatable except for bluegill.  There are a ton of them here in NH and up in Canada where I grew up because people just throw them back.  It must have something to do with the water, diet, etc.  I love catching them on a fly rod for fun as they will take flies off the surface.  Here is an example of one I caught in Canada:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/C-4C/pumpkin.jpg


That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 8:59:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#32]
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.


Unfortunately, they are inedible here and in Canada.  They have an 'off' taste.  It's really, really too bad because they grow quickly and are easy to catch.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 9:02:22 PM EDT
[#33]
Tag.
 
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 9:21:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By xmission:
OP:

Will you run this year round?


No.  Well, sort of.

The smaller 50 gallon set-up likely not.  

The 500 gallon set-up I'm planning on doing the following:

The ammonia to nitrate-converting bacteria die around 32F.  As you drop the temperature, the bacteria become less efficient at conversion.  Here is a table from this link.

Temperature

The temperature for optimum growth of nitrifying bacteria is between 77-86° F (25-30° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 50% at 64° F (18° C).

Growth rate is decreased by 75% at 46-50° F.

No activity will occur at 39° F (4° C)

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 32° F (0° C).

Nitrifying bacteria will die at 120° F (49° C)

Nitrobacter is less tolerant of low temperatures than Nitrosomonas. In cold water systems, care must be taken to monitor the accumulation of nitrites.


Since the temperatures here get well below 32F and I have no way of bringing the set-up indoors, I can't keep the grow bed going.  Not to mention the fact that I would have serious problems with the sump tank water freezing!

I tried an informal experiment this winter:  I kept 3 catfish in a 20 gallon bucket in my garage and had an air bubbler inside.  The water did have a problem with freezing on the surface for maybe the coldest two-week period.  The fish were NOT fed anything for the entire winter.  Their metabolism slowed down so much that they barely produced any toxic ammonia.  I did do some water exchange, but very little.  They survived the winter no problem and are the 3 catfish I have in the 55 gallon barrel pictured above.

So, my plan for the 500 gallon tank is to:

1) Drain the grow bed since the bacteria will be dead anyway and also drain the sump tank since it will freeze.

2) Use a water pump to circulate the water in the 500 gallon tank to help prevent it from freezing.

3) Use an air bubbler to keep the water oxygenated and help keep it from freezing.

4) I'm not totally discounting a heater to keep the water above freezing, as it may be necessary.  I simply do not have any experience with this beyond the little experiment I did.  I'm in new territory here and there is very little information on the internet about this.

5) Let the fish 'hybernate' through the winter and re-start the set-up in the spring.

That's the plan, anyway.


When your water temp gets down to 50 degrees in the fall stop feeding the fish. This will allow them to clean out for the winter. We leave our Koi outside through the winter and it seems to work with little problems.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 9:47:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Some of the pond koi folks build elaborate winter covers



Link Posted: 5/16/2012 9:58:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Can the roots stay submerged all the time?  Is it okay to have a constantly flow water through the roots?

We have a 4,200 gallon koi pond with a 80 gallon homemade bio filter.  I thought about running a second pump and setting up an 8' by 2' water trough to plant in with water flowing constantly through.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:23:07 PM EDT
[#37]
Originally Posted By xtremesports1975:
Can the roots stay submerged all the time?  Is it okay to have a constantly flow water through the roots?

We have a 4,200 gallon koi pond with a 80 gallon homemade bio filter.  I thought about running a second pump and setting up an 8' by 2' water trough to plant in with water flowing constantly through.


NO!  Well, it depends on the plants.  

There are some plants, like watercress, that can have the roots submerged.  Actually, they need to have the roots in water.  So I would recommend that because it's also edible.  There are of course many other plants you could use.  A nice one would be cattails.  I actually saw a mini cattail variety at Lowes and thought about buying some.  

I'm going to stick with green leafy vegetables like Swiss Chard which definitely need to have the flood and drain system or the roots will 'drown'.  The roots need to have access to oxygen.  I have seen some floating garden type set-ups but I'm sure the roots somehow are exposed to air during their cycle.

I am no expert in these things but the Backyard Aquaponics forum has great information.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:28:54 PM EDT
[#38]
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Tag.  


I sent a couple of IM's out and forgot about you.  I know you were planning on a pond set-up but aquaponics info is very transferable to a pond.

Originally Posted By mittffoo:

When your water temp gets down to 50 degrees in the fall stop feeding the fish. This will allow them to clean out for the winter. We leave our Koi outside through the winter and it seems to work with little problems.


OK, I wasn't sure what temp I should stop feeding them at so 50 it is.

Originally Posted By doc_Zox:
Some of the pond koi folks build elaborate winter covers



Great link.  I'll have to come up with some kind of cover.  If I use a bubbler then I think oxygen shouldn't be a problem.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:31:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


Perch.  Native to Texas.

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/20120426_155729.jpg

I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG


Up here, we would call that a sunfish.  And they are not very palatable except for bluegill.  There are a ton of them here in NH and up in Canada where I grew up because people just throw them back.  It must have something to do with the water, diet, etc.  I love catching them on a fly rod for fun as they will take flies off the surface.  Here is an example of one I caught in Canada:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/C-4C/pumpkin.jpg


That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.


Be quiet, Yankee.

That's a perch.

TRG
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:35:30 PM EDT
[#40]
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.


Unfortunately, they are inedible here and in Canada.  They have an 'off' taste.  It's really, really too bad because they grow quickly and are easy to catch.


I would really suspect preconception and poor preparation.  Penn an Teller did a great episode of "Bullshit" that revealed how a little nudge and encouragement will make most people think a glass of swill is actually a blue ribbon wine.

Most people will tell me that feral boars are inedible as they talk around a mouthful of barbecued 'sow' that i am feeding them.

As much as I find perch (sunfish) tedious and bony, there are others in my family that prefer them above all other fish.  

TRG

Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:47:43 PM EDT
[#41]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.


Unfortunately, they are inedible here and in Canada.  They have an 'off' taste.  It's really, really too bad because they grow quickly and are easy to catch.


I would really suspect preconception and poor preparation.  Penn an Teller did a great episode of "Bullshit" that revealed how a little nudge and encouragement will make most people think a glass of swill is actually a blue ribbon wine.

Most people will tell me that feral boars are inedible as they talk around a mouthful of barbecued 'sow' that i am feeding them.

As much as I find perch (sunfish) tedious and bony, there are others in my family that prefer them above all other fish.  

TRG


I'll try an experiment this summer as there is one pond close by that is full of them and keep an open mind.  But I've tried them several times before because my dad grew up in Hungary and there they are delicious.
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 10:52:39 PM EDT
[#42]





.  I actually saw a mini cattail variety at Lowes and thought about buying some.




I bought them and planted them last weekend. If they grow, I will document them in this thread

 
Link Posted: 5/16/2012 11:00:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Corporal_Chaos] [#43]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Too many unrelated fish (around the world) are called perch to make such a distinction.  It sounds like you are talking about the sunfish family, which includes bluegill, redear, bass, crappie and others.  It does not include tilapia.  In my experience, tilapia, like catfish, can vary in flavor depending on their environment (honestly, that's probably true for all fish).  As someone else mentioned, mudcats are good for fertilizer around here, whereas channel and blue cats are quite tasty.  For what it's worth, bluegill and their cousins taste fine to me.  However, they're normally too small for me to seriously target as a food fish.

Back to tilapia, if a person is in a warm enough environment where tilapia can flourish year round (or has the ability to keep the water above about 55-60 degress), then they are a great choice for home fish production because they readily reproduce whenever the temperature is right.  Just separate males and females in the grow out tanks so there is no uncontrolled breeding.  Other species like catfish and trout require a lot more infrastructure to get them to spawn.

Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By xtremesports1975:
Can the roots stay submerged all the time?  Is it okay to have a constantly flow water through the roots?

We have a 4,200 gallon koi pond with a 80 gallon homemade bio filter.  I thought about running a second pump and setting up an 8' by 2' water trough to plant in with water flowing constantly through.


NO!  Well, it depends on the plants.  

There are some plants, like watercress, that can have the roots submerged.  Actually, they need to have the roots in water.  So I would recommend that because it's also edible.  There are of course many other plants you could use.  A nice one would be cattails.  I actually saw a mini cattail variety at Lowes and thought about buying some.  

I'm going to stick with green leafy vegetables like Swiss Chard which definitely need to have the flood and drain system or the roots will 'drown'.  The roots need to have access to oxygen.  I have seen some floating garden type set-ups but I'm sure the roots somehow are exposed to air during their cycle.

I am no expert in these things but the Backyard Aquaponics forum has great information.


Yes, you can run a grow bed constantly flooded and grow things like peppers and tomatoes and other such vegetable crops in it.  Some people even run strictly deep water culture aquaponic systems, where the plants are grown in rafts floating on pools of water (as the name would suggest).  The roots are completely submerged, and each plant only has a small cup of media to anchor it to the raft.  Here is a great thread trialing the differences between timed flood and drain, siphons, and constant flood grow beds.  The secret to successfully growing in a constantly flood environment seems to be high dissolved oxygen levels.  Plant roots need oxygen, whether they get it from air around the roots or oxygenated water doesn't seem to matter.  The reason plants generally don't do well in soggy soils is because they are anaerobic environments.  

Link Posted: 5/16/2012 11:02:29 PM EDT
[#44]
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By C-4:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By MTNmyMag:
Originally Posted By TheRedGoat:
Originally Posted By Aubie1:
I saw some vendors on ebay that have some "rare" Tillapia.  They weren't cheap, but I'd rather start them off small than to have full sized fish.


If you are handy with a cast-net, most fingerlings are pretty easy to catch around boat ramps this time of year.  

I'm kind of a skeptic when it comes to Tillapia.  Non-native with a questionable pedigree.  Pretty sure they call it 'tillapia' in the restaraunts to avoid calling it 'really big Africa perch that we need to sound fancy to charge you more'.

I'm not a big fan of perch to begin with.  I've eaten them, and will probably eat perch again sometime.  I just wouldn't go out of my way to do it.  Scales, boney, not much flavor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/02/science/earth/02tilapia.html?pagewanted=all

Now, catfish...?  I'd trip an old lady to beat her to the serving line for fried catfish.

TRG


Perch?  I think you are talking about Bream or Sunfish.  There are no perch native to Texas.  A Tilapia is a cichlid. The have medium sized scales and a panfish type shape.  They can be ok table fare depending on the conditions.  Oscars are similar in shape to a Tilapia  and is a cichlid as well but they are voracious predators and quite scrappy on light tackle as well as delicious table fare.   The catfish I saw  a pic of you caught out of your creek was a bull head or mud cat.  Surely you are not eating those,  east of the Mississippi they are good , west they call them mud ats for a reason


Perch.  Native to Texas.

http://i671.photobucket.com/albums/vv71/TheRedGoat/20120426_155729.jpg

I have eaten mudcat, but, I fish primarily for channel cats.

TRG


Up here, we would call that a sunfish.  And they are not very palatable except for bluegill.  There are a ton of them here in NH and up in Canada where I grew up because people just throw them back.  It must have something to do with the water, diet, etc.  I love catching them on a fly rod for fun as they will take flies off the surface.  Here is an example of one I caught in Canada:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j33/C-4C/pumpkin.jpg


That is a red ear sunfish and they are delicious here,  actually that might be a pumpkin seed, still delicious.


Be quiet, Yankee.

That's a perch.

TRG


Yankee!  That is an intolerable insult.  I demand satisfaction, I shall see you on the field of honor, Sir!
Link Posted: 5/17/2012 7:22:01 AM EDT
[#45]
FYI, another thread at BYAP listing veggies that do well in constant flooded growbeds:  http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?uid=2418&f=3&t=9032&start=0
Link Posted: 5/17/2012 8:11:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#46]
Originally Posted By Corporal_Chaos:
FYI, another thread at BYAP listing veggies that do well in constant flooded growbeds:  http://backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?uid=2418&f=3&t=9032&start=0


Hmmm . . . I stand corrected.

My understanding is that the purpose of the flood and drain systems is to allow enough oxygen for the bacteria on the surface of the media to oxidize Ammonia to Nitrate.  So if they are constantly flooded, there is still enough dissolved oxygen in the water for this to occur.  I'm going to keep my current set-up but it's good to know I could remove the bell siphon and it would still run fine for most plants.

I will also read through those linked threads.
Link Posted: 5/17/2012 8:25:58 AM EDT
[#47]
I have 4 IBC totes heading my way for this project.  I'm going to try perch since they can stand colde temps.
Link Posted: 5/17/2012 8:49:37 AM EDT
[#48]
As C_C pointed out, there is no problem running constantly flooded beds as long as you have a good water turnover. Stagnant water in grow beds is a bad deal, but as long as you keep it moving you'll  be ok. Once you have enough filtration to support your fish tank, you can build raft systems that are just tanks with styrofoam rafts with a bunch of holes for net pots to hold the plants.

Check this thread out here. He shows a bunch of pictures of a system from his day job that show a wide variety of plants grown in rafts as well as standard growbeds. This is his previous system, and a very good read.
Link Posted: 5/17/2012 11:17:10 AM EDT
[#49]
One thing you've got to watch is the suction power on the pump.



I had one setup that hoovered all the soil out of my plant pots



Link Posted: 5/19/2012 2:22:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: C-4] [#50]
I have a guy that is going to help build a 22" high stand out of 4X4's for the 300 gallon grow bed.  Hopefully I'll get it together by the end of next week.  

I have a friend that has a small dump truck and we are going to use it to get some local pea gravel.  It's much cheaper than having it delivered.  I'll have him dump it on a tarp so I can clean it with the hose as I put it in the grow bed.  He's out of town for a few weeks so I'll have to do it when he gets back.  It will give me time to get everything else set up ie. 500 gallon fish tank, 300 gallon grow bed on its stand, and probably a 300 gallon sump tank.  The sump tank can hold a lot more water but it's not necessary, and it's not meant to be filled completely with water.  Any more than about 1/2 full and it starts to bulge out.  I may only put 200 gallons (1 cubic yard) of gravel in the grow bed but that only means that I can't put as many fish in my system.  

As far as the small 55 gallon fish tank set-up, I currently have 3 brown/black bullhead catfish in it as well as some goldfish.  My plan is to move the goldfish out and catch some more bullhead later this afternoon/tonight.  

The calculations for how much fish I can put in it go as follows:

1) This is a critical point:  The limiting factor in how much fish can be grown is the volume of the grow bed material.  This is because the bacteria coating the grow bed media (gravel, expanded clay pellets, etc.) are responsible for oxidizing ammonia to nitrite and then to nitrate:  

NH4 + O2––––-> NO2 ––––-> NO2 + O2 ––––-> NO3

This isn't a balanced equation but gets the point across.  The bacteria coating the grow media use oxygen to break down  the much more toxic ammonia to much less toxic nitrate.  So the greater the volume of grow media, the greater the capacity of your system to 'treat' water.  

The last step is for plants growing in the grow media to absorb the nitrate (NO3).  

2) The rule of thumb is the fish tank can support 3 kilograms of full grown fish per 100 liters (6.6 pounds per 26.4 gallons, or 0.25 pounds per gallon) of grow bed volume as per the Backyard Aquaponics forums.  The first page of the following thread discusses this in some detail as well as other topics.

My grow bed in the small system is 23+ gallons.  So 23 gallons X .25 pounds per gallon = 5.75 pounds of full grown, adult fish.

I have no idea how quickly my fish will grow so it will be a guesstimate as to how much fish I will stock the 55 gallon barrel with.  I know that if my pea gravel was covered in bacteria and I had some plants in the grow bed that I could have 5.75 pounds of fish in it.  But that is an end point ie. maximum, not a starting point.

So I'll play it by ear.  I have an old cooking scale and I'm going to try to weigh the total amount of fish just to have an idea of where I am at.
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