I posted this in the General Outdoor Discussion, but there are some gear reviews here and it might be easier to answer specific questions for gear here...

So, one of our yearly backpacking trips was well planned in advance.  My wife and I planned out a 130-mile backpacking trip along the Appalachian Trail (Erwin, TN to Damascus, VA).  Everything was set and we set off; linked up with our shuttle and after sitting in vehicles for about 7+ hours, we finally got our feet on the trail.  Day-one went just as planned; no issues other than fighting to get our trail legs and being just a little exhausted since we were up at 0100 with a long drive.

The never-ending curse of distance backpackers is cutting weight, shaving ounces, and counting grams.  There is a certain level of risk associated with balancing weight, limiting redundancies, maximizing the use of every item, and generally riding the line of just the right amount of kit, water, food, and fuel for the environmental conditions.

Seasonally, it’s been a little cooler than normal with increased precipitation; water was no issue on the trail.  As my wife and I used average forecasts and just watching the weather trends, we felt pretty comfortable cutting back on clothing and insulation.  Big mistake.

We completely failed to fully consider the effects of temperature at the elevations we would be hiking (Roan Highlands), coupled with some severe thunderstorms and high winds.  We froze our asses off after the first day.  The following days were overcast, sporadic rain showers, cold winds, and we were dumped on the following two nights before even reaching our planned camp sites.  We were soaked to the bone and nothing would dry out.  The first major thunderstorm hit us about a quarter-mile from the planned shelter site.  Even after we decided to just find a spot and get our rain flies up, we got pummeled from a massive deluge, high winds and a good 15-20 degree drop in temps.  My wife got her fly up and as able to hunker down; she was soaking wet.  I was only able to wrap up in my rain fly and take the 20-minute beating…soaking wet.  Pack liners are important as we kept the hammock, quilts, and spare clothing dry, but everything else was soaked through and through.

There was a serious hypothermic threat.  Once the winds died down, the temps still remained low and we had sporadic showers.  We switched out of wet hiking clothes and climbed in the hammocks to warm up.  Both of use skimped on better quilts to go lighter.  My wife used a cheaper (and smaller) down quilt and mine was really only rated to about 50 degrees.  We later found out temps with wind chill were in the low 40’s.  Because previous trip experiences and conditions, we cut weight on heavier sleep clothes.  I didn’t bring my rain shell pants, left off my heavier sleep shirt for a very light silk shirt, dropped my lightweight merino wool long underwear and just kept some silk-weight running shorts.  I didn’t freeze, but sleep was affected and I wasn’t fully comfortable or warm throughout the nights.  Because it’s June, I excluded brining my under-quilt (another colossal mistake); it only weighs 15 ounces but is very effective in temps lower than 50 degrees.  If you know anything about hammocks, convection is the killer and cold air under your backside makes for a very miserable night.  I still carried and used my Z-Rest section of CCF mat, which helps significantly, but only covers a section from butt to neck.  

I typically get and function off of 5-6 hours of sleep, but sleep is pretty important to your body on the trail.  Yes, we’re cramming calories in the body, but after carrying even a lighter load up and down irregular terrain, exposure to less than ideal weather, and just the normal exhaustion your body gets from hiking all day…sleep really helps your body recover; we value it highly!  And we didn’t get much of it.

Same weather conditions and miserable night the next night.  What was really bad is we just couldn’t get anything to dry out.  Socks were the worst.  I had two pair of merino wool socks and a pair of bamboo socks.  I rotated two pair and kept one dry for camp and sleeping in.  Shoes never dried out and the socks would be heavily damp at best.  Fortunately, no blisters, but had we kept this up, I was beginning to feels some soft-skin hot spots.

We had a little view of the Roan Highlands, but my wife slipped in the mud, banged and twisted her knee pretty good which slowed us down.  What was crazy was the wind-chill on when crossing both Little Hump and Hump Balds; both were socked in with fog and we experienced strong gusts, guessing it had to almost have been sustained at 15-20 mph and gusts up to 30 mph…it was freaking freezing for shorts.  Moving (much slower now) was the only thing keeping us warm.  As we descended into Roan Mountain, TN, we finally got some sunshine, but my wife’s knee was bruised with some swelling.  We were going to resupply at a B&B/Hostel, but made the decision to reschedule the rest of the trip.  Temps ended up being even lower with more rain in the higher elevations.  Despite all the planning, Mother Nature can give you a good kick in the balls; and if you’re no prepared, she will follow up with a knee to the head!

The good news is we had a good time despite the freezing nights, cold winds, and heavy downpours.  I’ve spent my career in some pretty crappy conditions…part of the job and I got paid for it.  This is our “vacation”, so we admitted we are “fair-weather” backpackers and after making the decision to reschedule the last leg of the trip, we shuttled back to the truck and made our way to Asheville, NC for a great Juicy Lucy burger and couple of local micro-brews after a hot shower and looking forward to a warm bed.

First, I’m glad I packed my Arc’Teryx dri-down puffy vest.  My wife even wore it climbing those balds with the wind chill.  Pack liners are a must to keep essential insulation, shelter and spare clothes dry.  Having a merino hat and glove liners were crucial at night…glad I brought them.  My wife’s circulation sucks; her hands were freezing when on the trail and she actually used my gloves.  She’s going to add a pair of liners to clothing bag as well (I was using OR 100-eight synthetic gloves; very thin liners).  

We completely underestimated the weather conditions at the higher elevations.  I think the average is 3.5 degrees cooler for every thousand feet; it was likely 10-15 degrees cooler without the addition of rain and wind.  We both agreed that a couple extra pounds of proper insulation and sleep clothes would have made a significant difference in dealing with the conditions.  As much as I love my non-waterproof Salomon shoes, I am going to use GTX versions for anything that remotely places us at elevation with any chance of rain.  My current shoes got soaked from ankle high grass and the conditions never let them dry out.  Rain pants and ankle gaiters would have helped significantly as well.  Even damp merino wool socks are okay, but damn, it’s no fun putting on cold damp underwear and socks every morning (my wife wasn’t too excited about the cold, wet sports bra either).

Immediate additions to the pack: OR Helium rain pants, long sleeve merino wool sleep/layer shirt, lightweight merino long underwear.  GTX hiking shoes outside of the drier months of July and August (for the SE area).  Sweaty feet are easier to manage than soaking wet feet that won’t dry out when constantly overcast, wet, and frequent rain showers.  Any trips outside of July and August, I’m going to include my under-quilt as well; it’s 15-ounces of quality sleep insurance.  My base weight is going to go up a couple pounds, but I am going to go back to some lighter accessory items (headlamp/battery combo, no need for a regular flashlight, etc,).

We were in much better physical shape than previous trips.  Still, with poor weather conditions, your hiking distances take longer.  Even with the basic “trail” terrain, we typically average about 25 minutes a mile.  With the weather and effects on the trail, we ended up taking as long as 35-40 minute miles having to slow down on slippery rocks, deep/slippery mud, and having to stop frequently to don or doff rain gear.

Foot care is critical.  I tried to rotate two pair of soaking wet socks (one merino wool, the other bamboo).  The mesh-toe shoes would soak them as soon as a I wrung them out.  What was important was retaining one dry pair for sleeping in and despite the weight of “camp shoes”, I had a pair of Xero-Shoe sandals which I put on as soon as we got to a campsite.  My feet were a little cold at times, but getting them air out was extremely important.  Massaging your feet is also important.  I may consider a small container of Gold Bond powder, but it wasn’t necessary as long as we got into camp with a few hours of daylight and the opportunity to do some foot maintenance.  I’m also considering “waterproof” socks. There are some new versions on the market and one of our shuttle drivers said they have heard some good reviews from thru-hikers.  I’m leery as most waterproof linings that get soaked take longer to dry out, but regardless, nothing dried out the last three days of our four-day section.  

We considered making a fire to dry stuff out, but honestly, it was way too wet and the frequent and heavy rain storms would have made a fire extremely hard to maintain.  We were far better off stripping down, getting into dry sleep clothes and climbing into the hammocks to maintain body heat.  

The start as mentioned was great…good weather…we were happy (although my wife promptly fell asleep as soon as here hammock was up!):









…and then the weather turned and the temps dropped:























Merino wool cap and glove liners were much appreciated for the much-colder-than-expected nights (just wish I had my long underwear and under-quilt!)…



Despite our poor planning for the conditions, we still had a good time and plenty of lessons learned as usual.  Fortunately, we had the flexibility to adjust our first plan…it sure didn’t survive first contact!  Time to reload and finish the rest of that section…and hope for slightly better weather and more importantly prepare for less-than-ideal weather!



ROCK6

Great AAR, thanks for sharing.  A few questions if you don't mind:

What were your expected temps (vs actual)?
Do you think you would have needed both the merino long johns and the under quilt?
Could you explain a little bit about your "foot maintenance"?

Temperatures were pretty close too average (we were tracking off Roan Mountain (the town).  Averages were pretty much on track: Highs in the 80's, Lows in the mid 50's.  Actual temps were just a few degrees cooler.  Yes, Roan Mountain (the town) is around 2500 feet and the actual highland balds ranged between 5800 to 6200.  That, in affect dropped our actual trail temps down to mid to upper 40's.  In and of itself, that isn't too severe, but the butt-kicker was the abnormally wet conditions and high winds.  Our second night, we were close to hypothermic conditions and knew it.  We were soaked, packs were soaked, winds were gusting hard and after the initial deluge, heavy showers would come and go.  As soon as shelters were up, we stripped out of the wet cloths, put on all our dry clothing and tried to warm up in the hammocks...which were minimally insulated (both top and bottom).  Once we got a little break, we heated up some water for dinner and hot drinks and then jumped back in for a long, cold night.  In that instance, I would have welcomed both the long johns and under-quilt.  I think the deciding factor for the under-quilt is really the temperatures AND elevation.  What we failed to really consider was how wet and windy the weather was going to be and the duration at the higher elevations.  Usually it's sporadic and generally the thunderstorms come through later in the evening and finish up really early in the morning.  Even with an occasional daily thunder-shower, we typically get enough sun and warmth to dry out...this trip was just a convergence of pushing our limits on gear weight vs. performance, unusually wet weather conditions coupled with heavier winds then expected.  That mixture spelled misery.  Many of the thru hikers were even surprised and quite a few took a zero day in Roan Mountain to dry out.  

I've spent time in the highland jungles of South America and this was a pretty good comparison.  The trials with heavier foliage was always soaking wet which you just couldn't escape.  And then, when you were exposed on the balds, it was overcast, sporadic showers and heavy, sustained winds which just exacerbated the wet conditions.  We met a guy (Grant) who is thru-hiking from Scotland...he felt right at home crossing those Roan Highlands and said it was very similar to home...cold, wet, windy, overcast and heavy mist/fog.  We just failed to consider that the weather conditions would remain crappy all day and all night.  We had a little sun coming in and a little the last few miles in the Roan Mountain...if it wasn't for my brilliant sense of humor and sunny disposition, the whole trip would have been a disaster!  

Before ever trip I spend a lot of time in minimalist shoes and sandals to toughen them up.  I wear minimalist boots at work (Army), but I will wear one pair of either bamboo or wool socks for the whole week; once home my feet are out and exposed as much as possible.  On the trail, the same applies, but when my feet are constantly wet, the key is to wring out socks as much as possible (rotating was useless with these shoes).  As soon as we got hammocks up, shoes came off, I would dry them with a bandana and massage them.  From there on out I would wear open sandals around camp and when in the hammock for bed, I would put on my dry pair of wool socks.  The only time I get hotspots is when my feet are so wet they get wrinkled which is what I was constantly fighting just for the few days we were on the trail.  Gold Bond would have been useless when on the trail, but I could have used it at night with the dry socks and sucking as much moisture out of my feet as possible.  

My wife actually uses Burt's Bees Peppermint foot-lotion and she's had great success with her foot health as well.  I just prefer dry and callused

ROCK6

Well, I've been toying around with some options for rain gear.  I want to add some rain pants, but keep the weight down.  My current (or at least from this trip) gear is an Outdoor Research Heilum II jacket (6.3oz) and a cuben fiber rain cover (1.5oz) for a total of 7.8oz

If I add pants (OR Helium, 6.2oz), the combined weight would be 14.0oz...

I've pulled out my old 20D Packa, and with the OR Helium pants (6.2oz) the two total 16.1oz.

A weight gain of 2.1oz.

The Packa starts out as a pack rain cover and you can quickly pull the integrated cover/jacket out and over your pack suspension...I've used this during colder, wetter seasons but typically don't use it during the summer since the lighter rain jacket is often used as a wind shell as much as a rain jacket. The Packa does replace both the rain jacket and pack cover which can be a nice cost savings, but not always a significant weight savings.

So with just the pants and Packa it's only a weight gain of 2.1oz but simplifies my full rain gear ensemble for the typical conditions down here. I'm using the 20D Packa and what I like about it is that you can put it on your pack like a rain cover and if it starts raining hard, you can pull the rest of the "jacket" part on with the pack still on you. I simply overheat with rain gear down here even when the temps are in the 40's. This drives my wife crazy because I'm constantly putting my jacket on and off as the rain is sporadic which also means having to stop and drop the pack all the time. The Packa will allow me to just fold the jacket part back without having to take my pack off and it's equally as accessible to put back on.

This solves my pants problem with only a 2.1oz weight gain and simplifies the jacket and pack-cover. The Packa will "breathe" a little better than the jacket (the Packa also has pit zips where my Helium doesn't) and also provides better coverage for the pack (actually, complete coverage and zero gaps). The Packa can still be used as a jacket without the pack, but you just have a large piece of hump-material on your back. It's not something you would wear down to the mall, but once the hammock fly (or tent) is up and your pack is under (inside), you still have full use as a rain jacket.

I'm just jealous as my wife and her sister/girlfriends took off at 0300 this morning heading up towards Hot Springs, NC for their own backpacking trip.  Weather is supposed to suck here all weekend, so I may just go out for a day hike when it's raining to try out the pants, Packa and Salomon GTX shoes...

ROCK6

Again, great AAR and thanks for all the info! Curious, what do you guys do for laundry on your longer hikes? I start to reek after about the first day Although, the last multiple day hike/camp was in Army basic, so cleanliness wasn't as much of a concern

Great heads up on what not to do!
I have found over the years! Some of the worse trips.
With the worst weather! Are the most "MEMORABLE" ones!!!
You may do 100 trips where most thing go your way!
But the few that don't, (and no one gets hurt)!
You usually remember fondly! You may cringe a little, too!!!  LOL!!!
So what is the next great adventure???


PITA45

Your nose adjusts  Honestly, this is where I appreciate merino wool, it really doesn't retain that funky odor.  We also carry a small eye-dropper of concentrated Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap which can use to wash clothes.  The key for me is just wiping down the body daily and if there's enough water (we had plenty of water this trip), I just rinse my daily hiking clothes and then hang.  


Memorable; not kidding  My wife is already back up on the trail and just texted me letting me know they made it to the shelter and the weather was holding up.  We will see if we can finish this trip in July...but it's a pretty busy June and July this year.

ROCK6

Glad you bailed. Lot of people try to soldier on and get themselves in trouble. There is always next time.

Did you guys use body heat to stay warm at night?  Would it be safe to say a 2-man tent is better than hammocks in colder weather.

Great trip report with a lot of learning. It's hilarious to see your wife's smile go from a broad, happy look in the first picture to a pained grimace by the last few!

I love the idea of ultra-light camping but have never been able to commit because of all the "just-in-case" extras I like to bring. Do you think one more piece would have helped? Maybe a light insulating layer like a Patagonia synthetic puffy? Lots of warmth but pretty light and compressible also good to sleep in.

Thanks for the AAR!

ROCK6 I always enjoy reading your threads and post for that matter.

Thanks for taking the time to write and post the pics.

No body heat as we had separate hammocks.  If temps are below freezing, we adjust our shelter plans and use a 2-person tent; we just prefer hammocks for temps above 40 degrees.  We do have a contingency to drop one hammock to the ground with insulation under and we can just wrap up in the one hammock, under a fly with all our insulation...it works, but is for truly extreme conditions.

For that trip, a slightly higher rated quilt and possibly a wind shirt would have helps.  Our hiking clothing was soaked and impossible to dry out (we didn't attempt a fire which would have worked, but conditions were pretty miserable and a fire would have just been a PITA).  As long as we could change into our dry sleep clothes and get out of the wind and rain, we were fine.  And when on the move, body heat dried from the inside out, but it was a constant battle.

Thanks! My wife is trying to sneak a trip in on me while I'm in Afghanistan...hopefully we can work out a compromise and see if one of my trips home can be turn into a trail-vacation.

ROCK6

Nice AAR.... thanks.

Good post, I'm in the Lhotse camp.  A few extra ounces makes huge impact.

Do you have any space blankets?  I found those were great at blocking wind and have slept in 50 degree temps, on Mt. Whitney, in my hiking clothes.  Of course they're noisy as hell...

Rock...nice write up!  How well did the backpack rain cover work for you?

I used a pack liner as well as the outer cover (Cuben-fiber).  The issue with the outer cover is the gap between your jacket and the back of the pack which will get soaked.  Nothing got wet inside, but the pack (and suspension) were pretty soaked the whole trip.  This is one of the reasons I want to try "The Packa", which eliminates that gap, but can also allow you to temporarily remove the "jacket" part without removing your pack to keep you from overheating and sweating out.

ROCK6

Had this thread sub for a while, finally got a chance to read through it.  Great information Rock, thanks for sharing.

I recently had a similar experience, and while the topic was different, your theme remains so I am going to piggy back on your thread, because this topic is very important and can even be blended over to a get home or bug out scenario.  

I didn't want to start a thread in both the outdoor and survival section but my primary thread is here:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Elk-hunt-2017-Always-learning-and-testing-gear-/1-690772/?r=11819843&page=1&anc=11819843#i11819843

7 day hunt in the Rockies roughly 9000 feet in elevation.  We use the closest town for weather reports and planning.  Its probably a couple thousand feet lower and try to take it into account but as you know, ya never know!

I went with a modernish synthetic 23 degree compact RECON 3 mummy bag https://www.elitesurvival.com/sleeping-bags/recon-3-sleeping-bag/  I used this bag for the past two years.  Lows for the first few nights were forecast in the teens, ended up being single digit, -Bah I can just wear some extra cloths, my ultra light insulated inflatable sea to summit pad will help make up some heat...  https://www.rei.com/product/882037/sea-to-summit-ultralight-insulated-sleeping-pad

Big mistake.  Froze the first night in our 4 man tent.  I had on wool socks, poly cotton sweat pants, fleece hoodie, (my planned sleeping gear)  and had a fleece blanket stuffed in my bag.  The next night I wrapped my wool sock covered feet up with a hunting shirt, had on long johns, sweat pants, poly thermal under the fleece hoodie, wool hat, still froze.  After that the temps warmed up above 20 and it wasn't to bad but that experience left an impression on me.  I ended up just sleeping in all my hunting cloths for the rest of the week.  My fjallraven vidda pro pants work wonderfully, they are water resistant, and if they do soak through, they dry really fast, and are wind resistant.  I have a lot of trouble keeping my feet warm.  I think They incurred damage on a long hunt a few years ago.  Soaking wet freezing feet for almost 18 hours while covering over 20 miles really put a long term hurting on them.  I bulled through it, but should have stopped and dried my feet out.  Live and learn.  Ever since they get cold easy and take forever to warm up.  Just after this last hunt both my big toes still have some numbness, but steep climbing up and down with kick stepping can cause this, they are feeling better.  Actually going to head out tomorrow for my first quick hike since the trip just over a week ago.  

Any ways, one of the guys that goes always brings this huge sleeping bag, says its worth the 8~10 pounds for many nights of comfort.  We basecamp and really only ruck the bulk of our gear 4 to 6 miles (all up hill) and I am starting to see some merit behind this theory.  That's why I had a recent thread, to figure out what my old sleeping bag was:
https://www.ar15.com/forums/outdoors/Need-help-to-ID-an-old-sleeping-bag-/1-690717/
I think I will ruck the old 6 pound monster zero degree synthetic bag next time.  I could buy something high speed low drag, but only using it one week per year sometimes bulky wins out.  I have a 20 degree down bag, so seeking out a zero down bag isn't really necessary for my gear lineup. I would really only use it for one, maybe two outings a year as 20 degrees is really my comfort limit.  I just don't have much interest to camp when its below zero.  If it happens on a hunt, so be it, but I don't plan to be out in it.

I always had the lightest pack, by many pounds.  I averaged about 50 pounds this past trip, others were 20 over that weight.  I know its a little different than light weight cross country but when your base camping for a week plus, its nice to have plenty of food and a couple extras. Sometimes a little extra weight is worth the suffer.  We also divi up a pretty substantial tent, its nice to stand up under cover to get dressed, plus the tent combined with tarp allows us to dry our gear when necessary.

As far as shoes go I agree, and for me its really tough, I like breathable hikers, because my feet sweat very easy, become damp, then get cold the rest of the day.  But that's a thin line vs. going waterproof, because as you said one patch of wet grass and your in the same boat.  I also agree, and no matter the scenario, camp sandals are a MUST!  letting your feet air out, even if cold is necessary on any wet trip.  I use a Walmart crocks, because they are light, and you can wear them with socks if you choose.
In the end I always go gortex/ waterproof because once your off trail and bushwhacking, it doesn't take long to get damp feet with breathable footwear if the surroundings are wet.

I also could have used a larger filter like my MSR pump.  I used my Sawyer squeeze because I figured I could filter more water than with my mini, but still allow it to snuggle with me in my sleeping bag without taking up to much room.  Keeping an MSR pump filter in my bag would be annoying but freezing temps would kill the filter.  We ended up boiling water as well, we had three propane cylinders and a small cooker, used a fire to but smoked water sucks.

Good fun/hard trip and we ended up with 100# packs on the way out.  

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A few more pics, camp setup:

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Also, boots I used this year are the discontinued version of the meindl air active backpacker.  Great stiff soles for heavy loads, but not stiff like alpine boots.  Only problem with stiff soles is they start to hurt my feet after about 75 miles of back to back use.  I like them for steep climbs and heavy loads but when hauling only a day pack they wear on your feet.  My weight is to high to consider adding "approach" boots.  Again give and take.

Another thought:

This topic also proves another bottom line that many fail to account for; and that there is no better way to test yourself, you gear, your planning abilities then getting out doing it, pushing yourself, learning what works for you.  As I posted in another threat, I have been on 7 plus day basecamp hunts living out of a pack, I have done it, and its my last plan for a disaster situation.    Its fun when its for fun but I can't imagine it during a serious stressful situation.  In other words planning to head into the woods is no plan at all.

Thanks for following up derrick, that is some beautiful country!  Location, season, and elevation play such a big part.  My mistake led to discomfort, a mistake in some locations, erratic seasonal changes, and "real" elevation can simply be lethal.  Most of the hunters I know down here in GA are pretty fat and out of shape.  They typically won't shoot their 100lb deer unless it's a quick drag to ATV  Most of our backpacking is focused on cutting ounces since the risk is pretty low...there are some trips where weight will slow you down, but is undeniably critical.  Thanks again for sharing!  Ironically, my IOTV weight over here in Afghanistan would keep me on the trail back home for about a week with a similarly weighted pack

ROCK6

I know a few hunters like that...  i have been paying close attention to your threads like this, my wife and i are going to try and hike the northville placid trail next year.  133 miles...