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Posted: 3/16/2015 8:02:46 PM EDT

Seeing the cold war is back on and early 1980's music is coming back in style (at least in my house) I wanted to take some time to pick everyone brains about NBC gear.  

Anyone else getting or have NBC gear scraped together?  

I have masks and NBC filters for the family, but I am thinking about getting at least a vintage Geiger counter and a few other preps.





Link Posted: 3/16/2015 8:18:14 PM EDT
[#1]
I would be careful buying any of the old yellow radiation instruments.  Many of these were in storage for years and years and are not calibrated.  

When I worked for the state, we turned in pallets of the old equipment, and kept  some for spare parts for instruments that were used for screening by small fire departments.  Anyone with any kind of radiation hazard had modern Ludlum instruments.  Regardless of the type, all of the instruments were on a calibration schedule.

If you decide to move forward, be sure to find out about calibration period and costs.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 8:56:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly.

Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be.

Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know?

The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult.
To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it.

1. Radiation from normal background.
2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities
3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 9:28:14 PM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would be careful buying any of the old yellow radiation instruments.  Many of these were in storage for years and years and are not calibrated.  

When I worked for the state, we turned in pallets of the old equipment, and kept  some for spare parts for instruments that were used for screening by small fire departments.  Anyone with any kind of radiation hazard had modern Ludlum instruments.  Regardless of the type, all of the instruments were on a calibration schedule.

If you decide to move forward, be sure to find out about calibration period and costs.
View Quote


How often do they need to be calibrated?  Every couple of years generally?
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 9:30:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly.

Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be.

Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know?

The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult.
To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it.

1. Radiation from normal background.
2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities
3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast
View Quote


I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm"  

Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools?
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 9:54:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm"  

Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly.

Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be.

Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know?

The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult.
To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it.

1. Radiation from normal background.
2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities
3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast


I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm"  

Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools?

Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it.  I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990.  With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own.  Sucks but that is just the harsh reality.  Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear.  Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls.

The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator.  It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum.  Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away.  Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking.  Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of.  

The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that.  The Army has issues getting that information out.  An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January.  That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one.  THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one.  Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours.  Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time.  You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time.
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 11:27:24 PM EDT
[#6]
X-nuke is something of an expert on Survey Meters and Geiger Counters, and has posted some excellent reviews of various models:

Eberline E-520
Ludlum 2401 series
Radex 1503
Ludlum 25
Gamma-Scout
Victoreen CD V-700
SE International MC1K
Victoreen CD V715,  CD-717 survey meters, V-742 dosimeter
Link Posted: 3/16/2015 11:31:43 PM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
X-nuke is something of an expert on Survey Meters and Geiger Counters, and has posted some excellent reviews of various models:

Eberline E-520
Ludlum 2401 series
Radex 1503
Ludlum 25
Gamma-Scout
Victoreen CD V-700
SE International MC1K
Victoreen CD V715,  CD-717 survey meters, V-742 dosimeter
View Quote


Thanks.  That is awesome.
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 12:11:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it.  I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990.  With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own.  Sucks but that is just the harsh reality.  Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear.  Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls.

The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator.  It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum.  Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away.  Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking.  Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of.  

The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that.  The Army has issues getting that information out.  An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January.  That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one.  THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one.  Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours.  Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time.  You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Getting useful radiation data is not as easy as turn the instrument on and read the meter. Even if you are lucky and the instrument works correctly.

Most people without a background in this type of instrumentation and measurements will create fear where it may not be needed when they start hearing instruments click at a faster rate without any idea of what the radiation is or how dangerous it may or may not be.

Me - I just have 30+ years of nuclear instrumentation experience. So what do I know?

The 3 examples below are so different in measurement and instrumentation requirements that making sense out of your data can be difficult.
To make it easy, radiation from door #3 can be so high and so deadly that even people who are in trained in these fields today would have a difficult time dealing with it.

1. Radiation from normal background.
2. Radiation found at Modern Nuclear Facilities
3. Radiation from a Nuclear Bomb Blast


I have no illusions about "walking the wastelands with my radiation detector strapped to my arm"  

Where do you suggest I go to start picking up just a bit of knowledge on the tools?

Personally, I would not invest a ton of time, effort or money in it.  I was on NBC teams for 10 years during the cold war and did the NBC defense NCO school in 1990.  With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own.  Sucks but that is just the harsh reality.  Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear.  Hell, I did it more than that and it still sucked balls.

The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator.  It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum.  Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away.  Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking.  Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of.  

The information contained on a CDM (Chemical Downwind Message) can be a factor and good luck getting that.  The Army has issues getting that information out.  An example, during desert storm, we got a CDM in January.  That CDM was the only one we ever got despite me hounding the BN chem officer AND the AF pukes we worked with for one.  THe only answer I ever got is, oh if you need one we will get you one.  Doctrine at the time called for a new CDM every 6 hours.  Because when the BC of NBC is in play, time is motherfucking critical and figuring out where that big cloud of Phosgene or Nerve Agent is heading accurately takes a lot of time.  You can do a quick and dirty cheat to get an idea of if you need to unass the AO RFN, but plotting the shit out takes time.


I will look into OTE.  I dont mind number crunching.  Or course getting information like size of blast and distance may be a bit of a guess.  Communication will be very important post any kind of major event.  

Most of those scenarios seem to be "A nuke just went off, and I need to get from point A to B", when what I am looking for is "4-6 weeks after a bunch of bad stuff happened, and somehow I am not dead, I want to make sure that if I step outside I am not going to cook" or "Is this water safe to filter and then drink?" and "how much radiation is blowing in when it rains?"  

That being said, biological agents scare me more, and I think are more likely to be used in the future against Americans at home, but having some basic nuke gear and knowledge is not a bad thing in my book.  


Link Posted: 3/17/2015 8:13:14 AM EDT
[#9]
on the topic of naturally occurring radiation... those of you that live in hard rock mining or phosphate mining areas, have you checked your home for radon (Rn222)?... and if you smoke, check out the dangers from lead (Pb210) and polonium (Po210) in tobacco...
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 12:20:19 PM EDT
[#10]
With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear.
View Quote


This.

I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc.

With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO

Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over.
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 12:54:27 PM EDT
[#11]
If you want to have a geiger counter, I recommend you do something useful with it.



http://radiationnetwork.com/
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 9:35:02 PM EDT
[#12]
tag for later

I have one of the old civil defense ones. My grandfather was in a volunteer fire department and we had a couple of them when I was a kid
no idea if it still works

I've been thinking of getting a new one if I can find a reliable one that isn't too expensive
there are supposed to be a variety of areas in WNY that have higher radiation than normal background levels and I'd like to confirm and also check areas I normally go to. Mainly just for curiosity
Link Posted: 3/17/2015 10:32:00 PM EDT
[#13]
If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25.

It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker".

Typical uses would be:
1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter)
2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter)
Link Posted: 3/18/2015 9:54:04 AM EDT
[#14]
People buy a $100 surplus survey meter and leave it in their basement.

Some type of alarming dosimeter would alert you when living your normal life and allow you a chance to get home or get out. I have a RadEye for work and it appears quite capable, but pricey. You can use some of the better units to determine direction by using your body as a shield and turning...when the reading goes up, that's the direction.

The survey meter I used to use had a source in the cap that you could do a quick check on accuracy.

Your plan on reacting may be more important than detecting...the detecting piece may be taken care of by emergency broadcasts or obvious indications.

Link Posted: 3/18/2015 9:09:34 PM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25.

It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker".

Typical uses would be:
1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter)
2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter)
View Quote


For $560 it better be good.  I do like they are out of sweetwater though.
Link Posted: 3/18/2015 10:48:06 PM EDT
[#16]
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 4:35:15 PM EDT
[#17]
if you find yourself in a location where you need one.. you are already screwed for the most part.
View Quote


That's why the "plan" is important. If you can figure out the dose rate, you can decide what to do. Low dose/rate, shelter and shield. High dose while sheltered? Sit and cook, relocate to better spot, drive like hell?

I'm sitting in the basement at some lower lever rate in the mR range...ok, sit and wait.
Higher? Now what?

You have to know when the rate is going to kill you sooner than it will take for levels to drop on their own or you decide that the current rate and accumulated dose is going to be worth the risks of traveling out of the zone.

Bottom line is there's more to buying a surplus meter and thinking you're good.


Link Posted: 3/19/2015 6:30:25 PM EDT
[#18]
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 6:55:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25.

It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker".

Typical uses would be:
1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter)
2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter)
View Quote


where could I buy one?
Link Posted: 3/19/2015 9:40:55 PM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
The most useful knowledge IMDO would be learning how to do OTE (optimum time of exit), basically it is a lot of number crunching so you want a calculator.  It is how you determine the best time to leave after a nuke blast, to limit exposure based on among a ton of things, what type of structure/vehicle you are in, protective gear, distance to the blast, size of blast etc etc ad nauseum.  Crunch all the numbers correctly and presto, you know the best time to leave your house, get in the car and drive far the fuck away.  Or the best time to unass your Bradley and start walking.  Even this is of limited usefulness, because you need to know the size and distance of the blast or the best estimate there of.
View Quote


http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/618130__ARCHIVED_THREAD____today_s_hypothetical_scenario_tac_nuke_goes_off_25_miles_away__your_next_10_moves__WITH_HOW_TO___.html

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/607398__ARCHIVED_THREAD____today_s_hypothetical_scenario__tac_nuke_goes_off_25_miles_away__your_next_10_moves__UPDATES__PG_4_.html

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 3/20/2015 1:48:00 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


where could I buy one?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
If I was to buy just one radiation measurement device, it would probably be a Ludlum 25.

It's small enough to carry with you almost anywhere, has excellent battery life, and is usable over a very wide range of radiation levels - all the way from "near-background" to "prepare-to-meet-your-maker".

Typical uses would be:
1. Locating areas with the lowest radiation levels (survey meter)
2. Keeping a running tally of your personal radiation exposure (dosimeter)


where could I buy one?


From the manufacturer.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 10:10:27 AM EDT
[#22]
I have 34 years of experience handling radioactive materials every day, all day.  I just retired from over 31 years of service with a branch of the U.S. Government.  Besides my formal schools at major Medical Centers I have completed schools at Sandia Proving Grounds, Oak Ridge and the Nevada Test Site.  During my career I cleaned up radioactive spills of almost every medical isotope used in the United States. This includes 99mTc, Sr89, Ga67, Tl201 and many others.  The worst was Strontium 89(used for pain treatment of bone mets) in drywall.  Most of the spills were due to the carelessness of Physicians who ignored their training. Toward the end of my career I started performing the mechanical parts of the physicians job(of course with the physician "supervising") just to prevent the radioactive spills.  We had the fancy digital Geiger counters which we call survey meters.  We never called them Geiger Counters.  My first task every morning was to check the function and calibration of all of our survey meters.  Anyway, we had the fancy digital ones but when it came down to the nitty gritty of real spills to a man all of us(Techs, Physicists and Radiation Safety Officers) always picked up a Ludlum 14C with a Pancake probe.
Link Posted: 3/26/2015 10:12:07 AM EDT
[#23]
My reply was too long for one post.  Here is Part 2 of my reply:  My favorite Ludlum 14C was over 40 years old but the more I used it the better it worked.  The 14C runs off of 2 D cell batteries.  There are two things necessary to check on the 14C every day: battery test and accurate meter reading to a known radioactive check source.  The normal check source is a 1 micro-curie Cs-137 plastic button source.  As a non-industry person without a NRC license I do not think that it is legal for you to purchase or possess this type of source but there are legal ways to obtain a check source.  I will not mention exact details of how to obtain your own check source but you can do an internet search and find the information.  There are certain products available to everyone that will read just like that Cesium 137 button source,  At work we had our source attached to a wall in a flip open lead holder manufactured for that purpose.  Many people actually have it attached to the side of their survey meter with double-sided tape.  The 14C is dependable but does not give a running total of your exposure.  The funny thing is that no matter where I travelled for schools or work(Oak Ridge, Nevada or New Mexico) every facility utilized that Ludlum 14C with a Pancake probe made in Sweetwater, TX.
Link Posted: 3/29/2015 10:21:49 PM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


This.

I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc.

With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO

Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
With out a huge logistics tail, nbc exposure is not something you are dealing with effectively on your own. Sucks but that is just the harsh reality. Decon is a huge pain in the ass for a military unit that practices it 2-4 times a year and has modern gear.


This.

I wasn't an NBC NCO but when I went through BNOC we had a big block of instruction on setting up an NBC decon station. It was then that I realized we're FUBAR if we ever had to do this. The same system that cant seem to get a truck full of soldiers and a truck full of supplies to be at the same place at the same time ("Put your rucks on the deuce, we'll link up with it later"....riiiiight, famous last words before you spent the night without your ruck) had a very intricate set of plans for supplying all the required NBC decon gear, fresh MOPP gear and filters. Back then most of this gear had to be exchanged very frequently depending on levels of exposure. I think the newer gear has longer intervals. Either way, you still need a butt load of fresh gear on a regular basis nevermind a the resources to deal with all the contaminated gear, fluids & waste products etc.

With the recent ebola situation in Dallas, I think we all saw first had how critical decon process and procedure is and one small mistake can be disastrous. In the military NBC stuff is taught and trained regularly (to much dismay..nobody enjoys it). Even then, most of the training is getting into the protective gear and there is a lot less time spent on actual removal & replacement of gear. In 10 years I only was put through a field decon station once and that was at JRTC where the NBC guys had to setup and do their thing as part of the situation at hand. Vast majority of us were 1st time NO-GO

Best way to deal with NBC is don't be there when it happens which of course you have little to no control over.


I was in a medical unit when I did the NBC thing.  It was also during the cold war.  So we trained doing decon a lot(You think a detailed troop decon sucks?  Try deconning litter casualties.).  It was still going to be a nightmare if we were ever expected to use it.  And the logistics sucked.  During Desert storm we were doing all of the medical decon for KKMC and evacuees to there.  We had enough STB to set up 1 decon station and it was not going to last long if it started getting used heavily.  When I asked about more I was told meh, if we need it we'll get it.  Since we had the same mopp suits through the entire war I was not confident.

Another interesting thing about NBC.  The army did a huge exercise in full mopp back in the 80's and made a training film on it.  Once you hit mopp4 50% of all casualties were friendly fire.

Bottom line, NBC fucking sucks and is about the only thing that scares the shit out of me, other than a nun with a ruler.
Link Posted: 3/30/2015 8:03:29 AM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 4/5/2015 7:18:22 PM EDT
[#26]
I like the Ludlum analog meters.  Having to manually change the scale is a reminder that things are getting more interesting.
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