When I'm driving around I've been noticing all the store fronts that are closed, buildings are looking run down and a lot of areas are just not taken care of.  This can't all be because of Wal-Mart and Amazon, can it?

Yes. Mostly. But you saved a few bucks.

Probably has to do with the state you live in, and it's economic environment. I don't see any of that here. Small towns are doing fine.

Internet hasn't helped local mom and pop stores either.

The younger crowd moves to the "city", think Starbucks etc. and takes away a lot of income, and the workforce.

Lots of folks move to rural areas to avoid the above mentioned regulations imposed by local "leaders".

I get the UPS truck down my road and seldom go to town if I can help it.

No, it's due to the larger businesses closing (i.e. manufacturing, mining, ect...). The store fronts you are referring too, are supported by people working in the larger businesses. When those business close, people have no money to spend, therefore they close too.

Accountant

Walmart and Amazon is mostly for retail. But any small business owners will tell you Insurance both operating and health insurance for employees is just about a impossible expense

Just depends on where you are.  This area is blowing up and land is getting expensive.

All this, and ghost towns are real.  I live in the UP, where every crossroads has a town name, a cemetery, a couple inhabited homes, a couple cabins, a bar , and a couple of boarded up businesses.

 They call your  section of the country   " The Rust Belt "
 Lotta  shit comes from CHINA now, which will be the next  Rust Belt.

I'm only 2 hours away from filthydelphia.  But yea a lot of the big companies are gone (Dana, Lucent), or are smaller (carpenter).
It amazes me though that it appears that there are still big screen TVs, and new cars in everybody's drive way.  Yet nothing is taken care of.

Here's hoping our Rust Belt gets hit with a load of Kroil when that happens.


The Ozarks aren't hit nearly as bad as outsiders would think. We've got our farming, our timber, and our mining, plodding along but doing all right. St. Francois County never recovered after its underground mines closed in the sixties and seventies, but in twenty years' time there may be some BIG iron/copper/gold/REE mines showing up in that area and kicking it back into gear. Aggregates is doing great; there are a lot of new limestone mines and a second trap-rock operation opening up. Much of that is along the Mississippi; it can be barged to anywhere for damn near nothing per ton. Almost all mining besides for the big operations is locally-owned by companies with one to five mines and fewer than a hundred employees- just as it SHOULD be; large mining companies can kiss my ass with their inefficient practices and general incompetence.

Mom-and-pop stores are doing decently. Most towns in the state don't warrant a chain anything besides a Subway. It's mainly specialty stores, though.

No, what I've noticed is an increasing amount of drug- and prostitution-related activity. Heroin is a problem here, and junkies erode the sense of community that small towns need to survive.

The thing about local businesses, especially in small towns is how much the over charge for products. I try to buy local when I can but when they are charging 50 to 100% more than the internet I can't do it. For instance my LGS has American Eagle 50 BMG M33 ball for $50.00 per box of ten. I can buy it all day long for $30.00 and sometimes catch it on sale for $20.00. I'm not paying $5.00 per round when I can pay $2.00, or $3.00.

I know WallyWorld wiped out Trinidad, Colorado's Main Street.  In Susanville, CA, it did that same for that town.

I used to live in an area like that, lots of small manufacturing went under during the economic crisis and never came back. Moved to a wealthier area and it's like night and day. Very little long term vavcant property. It's easy to blame Walmart and Amazon, but the fact is the big industries moved out or outsource everything and there is no work for the smaller outfits. Those jobs leave, the businesses that existed to serve those workers shut down too.

Big screens are dirt cheap and cars look new for a lot longer than they did in the past where they broke down and rusted out before 100k miles.

NAFTA moving small industries south of the border (i.e.:Fruit of the Loom)
Walmart competition
Internet shopping
Megafarms buying up smaller family farms
Young people moving away to where the jobs are

Times change.
The best buggy whip maker in the world faded with the automobile.  Such is the way things are.

WalMart has been demolishing mom and pop stores for decades now.
Our local economies have been tanking for decades as well for a variety of reasons

It depends on where you are. Does Walmart and Amazon hurt some businesses? Sure they do. Do they help some businesses? They sure do. The nearest "city", population 14K+, has a Walmart with a large grocery section. The same city has three other grocery stores within a mile. All are doing well.

There is a certain critical mass needed to sustain "local" businesses. Success breeds success. Failure breeds failure for the most part. Have a place with a single large employer and see that close you will likely see it die off slowly if working people can not transition to other local jobs at a comparable income. Conversely, anchor a good employer and others will tag along.

A town has to have external money coming in, or it won't last.

Towns on decline HAD external money coming in at some point, but if whatever gets that shuts down, the towns slowly die.

Mines, mills, plants, distribution centers even(?).

All the kinds of things that used to bring money to an area are regulated out of existence, and the jobs shipped out of the country; or made obsolete.

ETA:
Reason it's so critical, the world has gotten small. Money leaves the town like crazy. Amazon, Walmart, etc.

Blame Amazon and Walmart if you want, but they didn't pass stupid new minimum wages laws, that fuck up was done in your state capitol.

Funny but I don't remember people bitching about Sears, Wards, Kresge and Kmart for killing off "mom and pop".

Of course many "mom and pop" businesses actually did, and do, suck at business.

Government, Insurance, Crime, and rental rates do more harm than the big box stores ever could.

The factors that cause it are numerous, the pivot point that makes those factors matter is the economy of scale. Liability insurance, zoning issues, business laws, legal representation; generally all the costs of doing business. If you have a HUGE business those costs are shared over a large corporate giant and are easily absorbed and mitigated. If you're mom-n-pop it's tough to absorb those costs.

The internet didn't kill anybody, changing business climate did. We can only speculate as to reasons, but I think 2 of the big ones are liability concerns and political/law changes.

The only businesses that can "buck" that system are those that "lose something" when they become large. There are many shops/businesses that even if they were to be owned by large companies they still need a local presence and local people, so that gives some advantage back to the mom-n-pop shop.

It's more than that.  Wiping out the mom 'n pops slows the velocity of money.  Profits in a chain goes to corporation.  With mom 'n pops, the employee get paid more than at Wally World.  They tend to spend more locally and this supports the rest of the local economy.

This

What you are describing here, is more of a long term poverty mindset than simply a town on the decline.  You see this in cities and towns great and small.  From what I have seen it is often due to someone living years or an entire lifetime at the poverty level.  It is the mindset of "I don't care anymore, I just want my little luxuries since planning for the future has done me no good thus far".  Many people who do well or ok for themselves save back and try to climb out when they get into debt.  But when it has gone on long enough some people become defeated and stop caring beyond the now.  It spreads through communities as well as people tend to live near their own demographics, and those with money tend not to want to live near those who live in shitty looking houses, meaning housing values go down furthering the cycle.  When people have less money to spend, businesses leave because they don't make money from people with no money.

It is just more noticeable in small towns due to generally fewer demographics per town than a city.

The small town I live in isn't declining  with mom and pop stores closing.. they're all thriving as to be expected in a small town.

It's the caliber of people that are declining... Lots of scum bags moving in.

I believe the internet mail order businesses and cheap products coming out of big chain stores has had a lot to do with the decline of small/specialty shops in the area. It's just hard to compete with price and convenience of that business model.

The mall in my area literally has half of it's store spaces vacant. I don't understand how they continue to stay open, but they're determined not to die I guess. Everything can be bought cheaper at WalMart or more conveniently online without leaving your home. The only people that venture out to these places seem to be looking only stuff they can't reliably purchase online, maybe because of sizing (certain clothing and shoes), or just maybe out of habit of having to touch/feel a product before they buy, who knows.

Since this is a survival forum, I will state that the trend worries me from that point of view. If a large store similar to WalMart goes tits-up in the area, it's going to take a long time for local businesses to catch up to fill the vacuum. Also, what happens if shipping transportation is disrupted? Mega-stores won't be getting their stocks replaced, and you won't be getting your Amazon if USPS, UPS, and FedEx aren't moving for whatever reason. I used to believe that in that case you may be able to find what you need (albeit at a higher price) at a local mom and pop store, but that's no longer the case if they don't exist. All the sheeple will run to the big stores first to strip them bare in a SHTF situation.

Another thing to note is my small hometown I grew up in (small town of 5k) used to be a powerhouse of industry 17 years ago. There were multiple small stores and large manufacturing companies in the area, people were making good money, and the town was in very nice condition because of the revenue generated. There was a small town of similar size a few miles away with not much going for it, and they were the butt of the poor jokes in the community. As you can imagine, the industry has left for the most part, the railroad that ran through it has now been decommissioned, and now they're just as "poor" as that neighboring town. Seems like the townfolk just can't accept it though (it was leaning liberal when I left), they still pay exorbitant property taxes, and just recently voted to keep the police department they can't afford when there was talk of disbanding it in favor of just having the sheriff patrol it. Needless to say, the population is declining.

I travel all around the country at my job. Unfortunately for the large part it's corruption at the state and local levels. Along with a huge disconnect on how business is run. With the worst states being the most liberal. They really don't bother the mom and pop shops, apartment buildings or business that the EBT crowd needs.

But anything that actually generates money like aircraft maintenance or light industrial is a target. Unless you have enough money to pay the "administrative fees" or "campaign contributions" to make certain government officials go away. It's how almost every aircraft maintenance shop was ran out of the Reno airport. It's also why if you had an industrial business in California you left if you could.

Yea but, they don't call it Trannydad for nothing.....

Walmart going bankrupt is unlikely to happen overnight.  See Kmart closing.  The store was dead for years.  JCPenney is closing several stores, some of them were very profitable, just not large enough to feed the corporate beast.
Sustained disruption of supply, finance, and electricity are much larger long term threats.

It's not Wal-Mart.  It is the people who shop at Wal-Mart....and imperialistic adventurism.

Study Ancient Rome, the decline of Pax Romana, and then you'll understand.

I really don't think it's WalMart or Amazon; that is just the evolution of capitalism.  The advantage of the Internet and the commerce opportunities it brings is likely the answer.  Local businesses can thrive as an Amazon partner, Ebay, or other on-line marketing.  What better way to have a thriving business that's in a lower cost-of-living area than a smaller, rural community?  Not all need a brick-and-mortar storefront, but if regulations were reduced to make them more feasible, it would definitely help the downtown areas of smaller towns and communities.  Larger cities only offer better storage and faster distribution...those are best utilized by larger companies.  I see small mom-and-pop stores or numerous cottage industries thriving in smaller, rural communities.  Their market is far greater than their community which is facilitated by Internet sales and marketing.  

The current optic of "decline" is really just another opportunity for enterprising entrepreneurs with a desire to avoid the big-city hustle and bustle.

ROCK6

Downtown communities will never recover.  I've been involved in downtown revitalization projects for the past twenty years, and they all amount to taxpayer money being wasted by idealized politicians.

The trends have been:

1) Migration from rural agrarian life to urban industrialization.
2) Urban growth.
3) Industrial decline.
4) Migration from urban life to suburban life.
5) Migration from a production based economy to an information based economy.
6) Urban blight caused by the loss of production based jobs.

A return to "small town Main Street" isn't possible for most municipalities because it would have a "ringing effect".  The migration from the suburbs would cause a reversed effect from the 6 trends above.  Stately plainly...the suburbs would become ghettoes.

In those 20 years I've participated in everything from DT revitalization plans, master plans, infrastructure design, demographic studies, K12 trend analysis, etc.  HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS SPENT on plans, studies and efforts that are 100% doomed to failure.

My original comment remains.  Pax Americana is over.

I agree with smaller communities having a better chance of weathering the current economic trend if the following are met:

1) The small community has a production or agricultural based economy;
2) The small community is based far enough away from a municipal community as to make patronaging "Wal-Mart" (and similar) inconvenient;
3) The small community has a moral value system that isn't based upon consumerism.  Stated plainly: the people need to be "simple living" advocates who aren't focused upon the current Work-Spend-Work-Over Spend-Debt Accumulation-Spend More cycle.

Small rural communities have a higher probability of surviving if they're inhabited by "salt of the earth" people (to borrow from "baby boomer" vernacular).

For reference:

Two years ago my family completed the following experiment:

A) We moved from a mid-level suburban home about 3 miles outside the city limits of a city with a population of approximately 180,000.
B) We moved to a nearby historically significant town with a population of 770. (SEVEN HUNDRED SEVENTY people).
C) I commuted 51 minutes each way for three years.

The little town we lived outside of had a thriving social and economic climate when we arrived.  The town was supported by a nearby university owing to the little town's historic significance.

After we had been there for three years the little town experienced the following:

- The school was closed by the state;
- A major bridge to access the town was closed by the state (stated reason: no money to maintain the bridge);

Economic cascading effects started:

- The theater closed.
- The grocery store closed.
- Restaurants started to close.

I continued to work in the capacity I listed above during my time in the small town.  Ironically, I was involved in a study to determine a way to continue supplying the town with natural gas (the gas piping were on the bridge that was condemned).

We moved back to the 180,000 population city in August 2015.  I left the work position in September 2015.

The reality is this:

Small communities are completely dependent on state level economic support.  Small towns cannot generate enough tax base to fund infrastructure (roads, bridges, sanitary sewer and domestic water supply, etc).  Small communities will always be sacrificed before larger communities when economic issues arise (look at the state of Illinois as a case study).

This is a systemic and circular issue:

We've lost our production jobs, and our urban centers are in blight as a result.  The government has to increase spending to prevent wholesale failure (see Detriot).  The government decreases rural funding to increase urban funding.  Small communities start to lose their income tax base when they lose their higher performing citizens due to issues described above.

The only small communities that can weather this systemic economic and social entropy cycle are those who are agriculturally or industrial production based.

ETA:  We are in an epidemic level socioeconomic crisis coupled with:

- debt and social burden of sixteen continuous years of being "at war";
- a generation of socially inept but technologically tuned children are graduating from high school and college;
- increasingly divisive political posturing and complicit media.

The executive summary:

1) We do not have elected leadership capable of resolving the issues faced by our nation.
2) We have a social media and mass media focused electoral body incapable of discerning fact from propaganda (or fiction).
3) We have a generation of children who are unable to converse (in person) owing to increased use of technology for communications.
4) We no longer have the ability or infrastructure to produce the goods and services required of a first world nation.

Pax American has ended.  There isn't a corrective course that can make America the single republic in history capable of withstanding its contemporaneous issues.  Study every imperialistic entity in history and then show me one that survived intact.

The best we can hope for is to live out our lives with the relative comfort and security we all currently enjoy. However, social entropy is making the prospect of a continuance of our way of life increasingly improbable.  

Again, I spent the last twenty years in a professional capacity that positioned me to participate in the local, state, and federal impact on privatized and PPP (public-private-partnership) socioeconomic issues.  In all of these years, I have not witnessed a single successful attempt at correcting the issues we face.  There have been small victories, but they  have all been pyrrhic victories.

Social Entropy

Pyrrhic victory

I find it interesting that leftist theology attacks large corporations while at the same time pushing for more socialized services, which only large corporations can absorb the cost of, somewhat.  Small / family businesses are closing because of social policies being pushed. Increasing regulation and taxation are contributing factors as well. As small business becomes a smaller share of the economy, large businesses and government take over market share. When large businesses can no longer sustain the burden, the government will eclipse it, but have no revenue base to fund the increasing mandates. As this fails we will revert back to barter or gray market economies. Government will implode and local governments will reassert influence on the economy.
We are already diminished in our influence in the world. Perhaps if we stop trying to control the world we can save our own. Our near future will not be pleasant. Whether we fall like a rock or an under inflated balloon we will still fall. 

The move from rural areas to cities is nothing new in human history.  I don't get why people think its suddenly some weird anomaly.

There's a book I read about a year ago. I believe it was called, "Why Nations Fail." It explained why countries like South Korea were so successful and North Korea wasn't. Why? Oppressive government regulation. I personally believe this goes all the way down to the local level. I saw many industrial businesses pick up and move to the next county over in my home town due to the county increasing the taxes on them.
Hence the example of a poster above deciding to start a business in GA due to excessive regulation in Florida.

I've always understood that cities drew younger generations from rural communities, mostly for job opportunities and "city excitement".  When they mature and get tired of the traffic, poor schools, crime, and pollution, they move their families back out to rural communities; rinse and repeat.  I wonder if all the growth of social services and government reliance isn't keeping more people in the cities as it's much easier to provide those services and support to a consolidated population with typically better mass-transit/larger transportation systems.  I think the phenomenon is less about opportunities in cities and more about dependency on government services and entitlements which are just easier for government to manage and distribute in large populations centers.  This would also explain our last election voting map: more socialists live in large cities, more conservatives live outside cities and in more rural communities.

What this tells me is that the more independent American population often associated with rural environments is dwindling.  I still think the tech-sector will offer some opportunities for well paying jobs and working remotely or taking advantage of much better digital communications and bandwidth along with a lower cost of living outside the major urban centers.  And then we have that whole suburban population growth for people who still want the city job opportunities and convenience of services, but they don't want to live directly in the city.  I see that as many sacrificing rural independence for convenience, which I've done several times mostly to cut down commuting distances.  

The only way rural communities will survive is through the tech-sector.  We have moved on from an agrarian or farming society and most government regulations are not small-business friendly.  

ROCK6

No. Tons of people in rural communities get some kind of government benefits.

The last rural community I lived in had 75% of kids on free or reduced lunches. It's been my experience that if you qualify for that, you qualify for other forms of welfare too.

As another poster mentioned, rural communities depend on outside money to survive. if a rural community is close enough to a city for people to commute for work, they tend to do well. The farther they get from cities, the poorer & more welfare dependent they get.

Your economy is almost wholly propped up by American tourists. Not many tourists in rural Pennsylvania, except maybe to Amish-heavy towns.

I'm sitting in Cawker City, Kansas right now. Home of the worlds largest ball of twine. All of the small towns out here are dying.......rapidly.

It's a combination of things.

1.) Corporate farming has destroyed small family farms so those people left.

2.) Walmart, Dollar General, and Casey's have completely run off small business competition, so those people left.

3.) Young people who have access to the internet have no desire to stay in the middle of nowhere and take over the family farm, so they are leaving in droves.

4.) Local "good-ol-boys" politics that ensure that new business are disuaded from starting here. My town has turned down $2.1 BILLION in windmills, a new State Prison, a dry wall factory, and a massive truck stop. Why? Because the goo-ol-boys want to keep their precious small town just like it was when they were kids, so they refuse to allow ANY new development.


I'm watching a small city commit suicide. And it's happening all over the rural midwest.

Turning down the prison was probably a good idea. There's a smaller city a couple hours from me that has really high crime. Never made sense to me why they had such high crime until I asked someone who lives there. They told me it was because of the family members of people locked up there. They move to be close to the prison. Not the kind of people I'd want moving near me.

When they are released, it is also frequently into the closest town/city.

Small town I grew up in is drying up and blowing away. No jobs and the young folks don't want to be farmhands so they have migrated to larger towns.  Corporate farming has closed down the small-family farms. As the population drops there are fewer jobs.......
Doctors don't want to go to a small, dying town.  So as folks retire, they move to the larger towns with good healthcare and better services.   Causing the population to drop more and more stores to close for lack of customers..

Polar opposite here, as high birth rates and Soviet style registration keeps making small towns grow, even if economically unfeasible. Weird, really. Often, nearly everyone is in the same trade, competing with one another. But, makes it a sort of tourist attraction.

Strip Malls are growing more empty ---Alarming...