I live in the middle of one of the largest, most populated metropolitan areas in America. I have been thinking more and more about needing to have a place to go to in the event that western civilization starts to implode or things with the Russians, Koreans or Chinese start getting hairy. 

Most preppers seem to be picking under ground bunkers in desolate backwoods areas. I am wondering if this is such a good idea. 

For one thing, it's an investment that isn't going to get used much unless TEOTWAWKI actually happens, and for another thing, you're going to be completely on your own (or with a couple of family members). This can limit your ability to gather resources, defend yourself/yourselves and obtain pertinent information to the situation, particularly local information (which may be the most important). 

As an alternative, I am considering a small house in a small, one horse town. There are a lot of these little towns, out in the middle of no where, all within two hours of the big city. The upside, as I see it, is that this could be a vacation property, a place to retire to, and a place to bug out to. I am figuring that I could go out there on weekends, hang out, cut the grass, have dinner at the local diner, throw back a beer or two at the local watering hole, get to know the locals, and establish relationships. The way I see it, you have the benefit of being outside of the city full of unprepared masses resulting to looting, robbery, murder and cannibalism, while having a network of rural, like minded folks who know you and are as concerned with protecting their stuff as you are. Three armed men vs. a roving gang of desperadoes might be a tempting target. Fifty armed men vs. a roving gang of desperadoes might make them go take another look at those three loaners instead. Also, you're not burying $100,000 in secret, you have a much cheaper place that you can actually use on vacations and weekends. 

Opinions? 

You are on the right track.  Having a place within a small community makes tremendous sense -- especially if you take the time to develop relationships.

My BOL is 40 acres of undeveloped property surrounded by dairy farms.  I have made good relationships with all the farmers.  I wish I had a house on it but I don't -- yet.

I know the farmers would need extra labor / security in a worse case scenario.  While I haven't talked directly with them about this, I "hope" if I showed up in a end of the world scenario with 2 strong boys I could find room and board in exchange for backbreaking labor and security.

It's the only plan I have involving a BOL.

IMHO,  complete isolation is essentially impossible.

Unless you have a 'copter...




If a road or trail goes to your BOL...

It isn't a 'secret'...

And you can BET  --your last MRE...

Someone ------or many ---have plans to occupy it in a SHTF!

I used live in a rural town of 1500, about ten miles from a town of 8000k.  Lots of 'like minded rural folk' are pro gun, politically conservative, yet dependent on .gov handouts and social welfare programs and don't have six days of financial reserves, let alone six months.

i do kinda  at some of the rural myths.

Plenty of FSA.  They're just spread out along county roads in trailers instead of concentrated  in projects or on 'the other side' of town.

This is true. My family used to have a "cabin" (it was actually a three bedroom house with a full bathroom, full living room and large kitchen) in northern Michigan. Our neighbors across the road and next door were both on relief. BUT, they weren't crooks or scum. They were good people (though not overly bright) living on the outskirts of a one horse town. They kept an eye on our place, watched a lot of TV, drank beer, did chainsaw sculptures and taxidermy, kept gardens and never committed any crimes I knew about. Would they have resorted to crime when the beer and Spaghetti-Os ran out? Maybe. 

But, I would take my chances with the FSA in a small town over the FSA in the city every day of the week. First off, there are fewer of them in the small town, second they aren't as mad at the world already and third they generally aren't as ruthless. The shit that city FSA in the projects do on your average day is horrifying enough, and Katrina was party time for them. 

Besides, if the balloon goes up, do you really think a city slicker out in the open country with an AR is going to be much of a match for hungry country boy?

Also, in a small town, there's probably a better chance that the local police aren't going to head for the hills (like many did before Katrina) so you will have some law and more guns. I'm not saying it would be paradise, but it's probably going to be a lot better than burying yourself or fighting it at Ground Zero. 

I think it depends on just how far you think it is plausible for society to disintegrate.

What do the living arrangements look like in societies where semi-organized banditry is common? People usually live in walled (ish) compounds with an extended family or like-minded people, not nuclear families living alone. The latter arrangement kinda depends on a mostly lawful and peaceful society.

Read "The Postman", (the Brin novel, not the abomination of a Kevin Costner movie)

While the writer was a lefty and the ending was bit wack, the guts of the book are surprisingly good.

Lone survivalist tend to get picked off because they are lonely, isolated & attractive targets (resource rich).

Small rural communities where people have the skills(farming, repair, animal husbandry) and attitude tend to survive because you can't be on watch for 24 - 7 - 365, not to mention the benefit(s) of helpful neighbors for projects or defense.

I'd say the key thing is finding the right neighbors, (self reliant Vs. Lazy FSA)

Bonus Point - author talked about the importance of food in preps Vs. just ammo, ammo and more ammo.  It was a point I hadn't really completely thought through early in my planning, but having rations to feed you and yours for the "hungry times" made a good point about a gap I was overlooking.  I know a lot of people who feel they are "ready" because they have MREs for a month...

BIGGER_HAMMER

An interesting point that I picked up on in Blackhawk Down...for what it's worth.

The warlords were out to control the food. If you can arm a man then you have an ally. If you can feed a man then you have a friend. If you can feed his family then you have his loyalty. 

When and if carpetbaggers start showing up.. they will be the first to go

Ill toss my two cents out .

MTS your on track on your idea vs bunker.
The only issue is not being there full time.
I know..I know..someone who's never ever had a real location will be along shortly to debate that
The reason that is an issue is in certain scenarios ,you better be on spot to get out or you could end up stuck.
That's the major issues for not pre locating before any event. People can debate scenarios..timing..threats..traffic..flight and customs delays but if your not there it's a big issue.

I moved from an urban area to what your calling one horse. Population before the yearly influx of snow birds is sub 1800..cresting just at 2k roughly.
Two streets over is a 2 million dollar home..across the street from me is a 1978 double wide with a truck up on blocks. In other words your living in a mix of variables. 
Mindset is totally different in rural areas.
During the hurricanes last year..locals had the roads cleared of downed trees before the power companies showed up...trucks we're going from house to house. The network was already chugging along.
Your ideas of getting to know folks is spot on.
If there's a bait shop or such go hang out trust me lol.
Youd be surprised at the invites you receive from folks that are "strangers" from hunting to fishing..to a BBQ.

Anyway.
We moved.
Our goal was to be away from the real FSA...the crime..over crowding. Along with the threats involved with such during long term scenarios.
The other ones were to be able to live inside our means. While be able to maintain income or cover bills if the economy flopped or job loss and through retirement.
In other words we didn't go into huge debt to buy a dream home or super fortress. But a modest place on a small chunk of land.
My mortgage is what a new full size truck would cost you.
I commute 80 miles a day.
I'm with in 10 minute drive of every outdoor activity you can think of.
I don't get woke up to ghetto gobbling bumping music past the house at 3am. Though the Mexicans two streets over sure can throw a party every so often lol .

Point is.
Think of it as you are. But remember. Your gonna have to be Johnny on the spot on your bug out plan. Timing is everything.
Network now as you can.. meet..greet. treat.
You may be shocked to meet folks who are of the same or similar mindset as yourself.
It shone through here during election day......

I would simply plan on having a place to go in the country. No in a small town but in Farm country. Back roads and quiet living. Nothing crazy far out.

No one can agree.
Personally I think the best route to go is to live in a small village with a mix of agricultural, residential and maybe even light industry.
A max of between 1000- 2000 population,

No doubt there are a lot of myths about rural folks. I grew up in the country surrounded by farmers and yeah there were a lot of low life's tucked in along back country roads even then.
There are more now that DSS has figured its cheaper to house section 8 people in the country on a  bus route.
At the same time, right up through the 50s it wasn't uncommon for the rural farms in my county to get snowed in for days at a  time. They might not keep a years worth of food, but they haven't forgotten being isolated, even now.
Those families may not be able to continue the style of technology-heavy agriculture that has evolved into being today, but they still retain a core base of knowledge on growing and raising things, unlike city folks.
There are a lot of family gardens in my village every summer.
The state land grant college that's big on agricultural stuff is based in my county, so I figure that would be a resource if the staff and facility survive.
So, while I am not trying to comment on everyone's situation, I think I am in a good place

Hope is NO plan.  A investment of time planning with your neighbors is a plan.

You're not wrong, but, it seems to me that disasters rarely are a complete surprise. For a "HOLY SHIT! I NEED to GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE!" event, there is usually a build up and time enough to run. The warning signs may be different, but if you are paying attention to current events, the weather, etc. then you should have enough warning to know it's time to go before the bad thing happens. 

I have developed good relationships over a five year period with my dairy farmer neighbors.  I am not ready to talk Armageddon with these folks yet.

The only reason I would need to bug out anyway is an end of the world event.  Anything else can be handled with cash.

If we have an end of the world event, all bets are off -- I don't care what kind of plans you have.  Bugging out (except for areas that have weather events like floods or fires) is mostly mental masturbation by peppers.  In all likelihood, for better or worse I will stay in my country subdivision with neighbors who are a known commodity.

I don't want to oversimplify, but if the turd rate is 5% I'd rather have the overall population much smaller. Easier defending against a dozen roving people than taking 5% of the NYC population.
If things were teotwawki you'd need friends, a group. Preferably much tighter than mere acquaintances in the neighborhood.
Mindset, military experience, appropriate basic load, group knowledge & experience with each other is a force multiplier.

Unless you're really in a crappy area, I would guess that the sum total of your wealth (friends, things, real estate) is right where you are at the present time. How do you maintain two locations or move thousands of pounds of gear to another location? You don't. You run what you've got, where you've got it.

True. It shouldn't be a surprise.
But we all get caught off guard at times...
Murphy's law and all that.
Even with hurricanes or snow storms.

Like I said..ditch the bunker idea...

And look into a place in the small town.

This is key imho.

Location.
A place with 3000 people 7 miles outside a city of 175k still puts you at risk on the numbers game.
Theres multiple things to consider when choosing a place.

Guess it comes down to it your planning for ...

Like most things everyone's level of involvement is different.

Bingo.
People concerned about urban unrest or crowds, that may not be financially robust, should build a network and develop "better" places in the city to go. Let's face it, you may not be able to afford another chunk of land, but if you're a light traveler you could head to a buds place, commercial/industrial stronghold...something a bit better.

Well said.  That is why bugging out in teotwawki is a fools errand for most.  Yes, I know there are a few guys that have put together groups, logistics, experience etc. but for most of us we will live or die in place or close to it.  I have no illusions -- life will be short and brutish for most.

I also agree that "mere acquaintances in a neighborhood" will be problematic.  The stress of the situation (combined with hunger and fear) will quickly tear down most relationships.

I am better prepared than most having been thinking and planning about such a situation for 20+ years.  However, the older I get the more I consider faith as my most important prep.  "Stuff" is important but also can be lost.

I've told my wife by the time we know to leave, it'll probably be too late.

I think I will stick with my back woods BIL/ Home base...

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Granted...  I have other places to go, but I will do my damnedest to stay put...

I agree. But many do not.
At one point ,when I lived in that famed urban utopia (I mean shit hole) some like to promote , I did exactly what you posted.
Except it was to a non urban area.
There were others involved,alt routes,cache points, etc etc etc etc.
I networked..I did like posted above.
I had to maintain two stock piles of preps. From food..to gear..to clothing..to toilet paper. Everything I needed at home was at the BOL as well.
I wasn't rich...wasn't Mr.money bags either.
I knew my area if a event happened would NOT be sustainable.
I paid mind to every but of detail
..news..radio..net..in person Intel due to.personal involvement with LEO. You name it.
Did I have a stay in place plan. Yup.
So did the Texans at the Alamo!!!


But I gotta say this. Many will not move or buy a DEDICATED location because it's a lifestyle change and requires dedication.
Most preppers will buy their wise buckets on sale..a Sawyer filter...tapcofuck an SKS or AR...grab some voodoo China gear...and other toys and call it a day.
Aka
Real life doomsday preppers.

You can point fingers at a hundreds reasons why folks don't push harder.
But it is life.
That's why not everyone is a NFL star.

But the internet has made many a JV player feel like they are.


And tablet autocorrect sucks

tc556guy describes my home town to a t.  

I live about 50 minutes away from my home town via interstate highway, or 90 minutes away taking back roads.  
My brother still lives there, as did my Dad and Mom until their passing a couple years ago.  
The vast majority of people there still remember me.  
I own ~ 150 acres there.

My property is 4 miles outside of the home town, and the town is 12 miles away from the nearest population centers (two in either direction), both of which runs around 25K population.  The closest large population center is where I currently live, which is 100K with about 250K in the entire county.  

My plan is to buy a smallish trailer and move it onto the backside of the largest field I own, which will put me about 1/4 mile from my brother and his wife, and be adjacent to the woods I grew up playing in and hunted for decades.  Perfect?  Probably not, but I don't think I can do much better.

That doesn't describe anywhere in my area.
Obviously there are people who live a whole lot closer to metropolitan areas who should be more concerned about their proximity to large urban populations.



On 9/11 there were a ton of people who were flooding out of lower Manhattan

In the years after 9/11 a lot of people relocated out of the NYC and NYS area. Orange county essentially took over as the demarcation of the NYC metro area from Westchester County because so many people left NYC and Long Island. My guys were in Orange County stuck at the airbase in 2003/2004 and heard nothing but complaining from locals because of the uptick in population and development they were having to deal with.

I think that a strongly connected community is the way to go.  Everyone bands together for greater security and response.  People can always pull guard duty, or foraging duty, or ambassador duty etc.. the list goes on.

It's likely easier for a roving group of thuglings to knock off a lone survivor type than it is to come up against a group of well armed, well organized and alert neighbors.  The thuglings likely wouldn't survive that encounter.

Pandemic is the one you'd really want isolation for.

I live on the south end of a huge county with less than 100K people in the entire county. I live in the least populated part of that county. I really couldn't do much better than this. The county is about 1368 square miles.

They invaded the NW corner of CT. And started fucking up town councils and zoning laws to accommodate their McMansions. Ruining a once conservative enclave in the state. Fuck them. They can go back to MidTown now.

I think the OPs plan is okay...the key is establishing relationships.  We all agree that the large urban areas are situations to avoid for any major SHTF, but the key is making the decision to bug out early enough so you don't get bogged down.  Our county population is larger than a thought (about 21K), but we are on the edge in a more rural area.  There really aren't too many "remote" area outside of some stretches out West.  This is really our bugout location outside of some natural or man-made disaster that would make living here impossible.  We do have a significant urban spread about 40 miles away.  Even if a job forced me into a more urban area, I would still rather commute to a smaller community as must as 40-60 miles away.  

Whether you live or work inside a large urban area, the decision of when to get out is as critical as having a place to go.  I also think you'll need contingencies to temporarily bug in as well...getting caught in traffic can make you quite vulnerable.  Arriving late to your summer cabin and rural community may not be so welcoming if your bugout take too long as well.  Don't forget, those small communities will likely not have open arms for people they don't really know.  Again, this is why establishing relationships are critical now, not after the SHTF...

ROCK6

Not to derail but ..who's gonna lead this merry band of backyard BBQ buddies...
Its the "lights out " fantasy.
I understand that in some places /subdivision/neighborhoods people are tight.
As in gossip mill tight. My brother 3 miles away has that on his little three street area of our town. One person can't fart with out someone complaining about it.
Meanwhile..on my side of town..it's more space between neighbors at times..I've meet two of mine. Most (besides the retirees from up nawth) are loners..or in the good ole boy network. Interaction is more of
"Hey John...all ok after the storm...all's good here..need anything just holler.." 
And you see the guy next big storm.

Time for watch duty Tom.
Whos wife's complaining about Johns wife..who's complaining about no fresh food..and Tom is just tired since he had to pull double duty since Carl never showed for his detail..because his girlfriend was upset he was spending to much time with Bob over in his garage..the neighborhood CP.

I'm glad for someone who's just happened to live in a neighborhood full of dedicated and like minded people.
That person should play the lotto.imho.



Spot on rock.

Ivebeen here five years now.
You don't get a free pass over night in small towns.
It takes time. Longer imho than in larger city's.

You said you wish you had a house...does it have to be a traditional house?  I'm not talking an RV, but what about a small cargo conversion?  That's what I have and it has all amenities I and my husband need.  The best part is that we can move it anywhere.  I've converted it but everything is removable.  We have a 6x12 cargo trailer that has a queen sized bed/couch, composting toilet, shower, kitchen and fridge/freezer...all running off solar.  We have a generator for a portable a/c but working to remedy that.  Just a thought...

Grinning_Bob:

My apologies, I'm new here on how to reply, so hoping you get this...

You said you wish you had a house...does it have to be a traditional house?  I'm not talking an RV, but what about a small cargo conversion?  That's what I have and it has all amenities I and my husband need.  The best part is that we can move it anywhere.  I've converted it but everything is removable.  We have a 6x12 cargo trailer that has a queen sized bed/couch, composting toilet, shower, kitchen and fridge/freezer...all running off solar.  We have a generator for a portable a/c but working to remedy that.  Just a thought...

We bugged out about seven years ago. Living in a strange new small community had its` challenges but we were up to it. At our age we didn`t really NEED any new friends as our circle of friends was already spread out to the point that in SHTF where we lived before we would not have been able to help them anyway. Where we live now I`m less than a mile from a Family Dollar and a small store with gas pumps. Our little town has maybe 1000 folks spread around. The nearest town of ANY size is about 8-9 miles away and it is only about 6-7000 and quite rural in nature.

When we retired we knew we wanted some privacy if not a LOT of privacy. I have deer, fish,a garden and nice shop with the tools/skills required to get by just fine. Our place has a lifetime of firewood lying around without ever having to fire up the chainsaws. Our 10 acre lake isn`t likely to disappear.

It`s almost as if we are just hanging out waiting to die. So quiet here. Boxerdog at my feet. Wife still asleep. Life is good.

Hello Texas Tramper and welcome!

Your ideas are good.  I am probably moving a different direction.  I am planning to build a big shed -- which I need anyway to store a few goodies and we can sleep in it during hunting season.  I am planning a metal roof, insulation, generator hookup, and space for a future woodstove.  At least it is a start.

ETA:  Will plan for future solar as well.

Maybe living in "one of the largest, most populated metropolitan areas in America" isnt the best idea, nor is it living in the middle of no where. I'd go for something in between, or even better, close to tha something in between but not quite in it. This gives you the best of both worlds. I dont want to be in the middle of nowhere when I need a hospital, or when I need good schools or want to go buy stuff, have a night out with the wife, etc.
Also, you mention BOL and bunkers. Keep in mind they are two different things. For some people, in some areas, a bunker or storm shelter is the most important prep they have going on.
FerFAL

Here are my two cents based on experience, although in a different country.  I was born in 1981 in what was then Yugoslavia.  I am Serbian but by family lived in a majority Muslim town of Zenica, wiki link, Bosnia & Herzegovina.  That city is pretty much right in the middle of Bosnia, which was in the middle of Yugoslavia.   I distinctly remember conversation my parents would have with people, even with the war already having gone on in Slovenia, and in full swing in Croatia, that it would never come to us.  

That brings me to my first point, where people say that you should be able to see it coming, in a lot of cases you do but you rationalize it away, thinking it can't happen here or to you.  

Compete isolation at least back there was not possible.  There was simply nowhere to hide yourself and your family away, where nobody would find you for 4 years.  Granted, the country was much smaller, but the population was much smaller too.  Also, are you prepared to be gone that long?  what about your kids?  

Money is a life safer.  in our case it was German currency, deuchemarks, that got us out the city and to serbian part of Bosnian, then to Belgrade after 18 months under siege, with intermittent electricity (few hours a day, then few hours a week), no running water, no school (every cloud has a silver lining  for an 11/12 year old boy lol).  It's a wonder but money will make the worst enemies let the buses through barricades through no man's land etc.  

Best bet is to be in a city/town/community of people who are like you.  Meaning that if it goes south, you are all on the same page and can band together and help each other out. There are great people on all sides, however it's reassuring when you are in majority lol.

Anyway didn't want to sidetrack the discussion, just my two cents.

Thanks for sharing.  What you say rings very true.  I would wager that any ethnic or racial group in America would be better off around "their own" if things go south.

I have lived in diverse areas before.  I would not want to survive the end of the world in a "diverse" area.

Thanks for sharing your valuable experience.  Often people think doing one thing or another will work well when SHTF,  they don't see that it works during good times precisely because S hasn't HTF.
If I may ask, how many deuchemarks did it cost to get out of there?  It's a topic I have researched and found different versions.  I believe it cost 10.000DM to get out of the sieged city of Sarajevo.
Money is indeed one of the best assets you can have during emergencies and disasters, amazing that many people still refuse to believe it in spite of the overwhelming evidence.

It cost 1500 marks per person.  This was in October of 1993 that we were able to leave.  My father, brother, grandfather & grandmother left first leaving my mother behind in case the bus got turned around or we couldn't get through.  We needed somebody to stay back and make sure we had a house to return to in case this happened and figured that it was safer for my dad to travel with kids than by himself.  Hard currency is a must, by that time they were issuing pictured money in the city and it was only good in the city itself.  

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Of course every checkpoint you reached you had to collect money for the soldiers there, say 10 marks apiece.  I have a feeling the bosnian soldiers escorting the  bus in a car took most of that money though lol.  We ended up in the city of Vares, wiki link which a that time was in the hands of the Croatian army (to be precise these were Croatians from Bosnia, not Croatia proper).  We waited for my mom there for about a week or so and then left for the Serbian lines on one of the last buses as a few days later the Musim bosnian army attacked and took over the city.  That also cost around 500 marks apiece.  

funny story, when we finally reached the Croatian checkpoint the Croatian soldiers came onto the bus and said, any Croatians on here want to volunteer to join us?  The whole bus went quiet lol, everybody claimed they were Serbian.  when we reached the Serbian side same thing happened.  Every Serbian man had to volunteer 2 weeks on the lines, everybody was Croatian all of a sudden.

Why aren't you living there now?

If real SHTF you might not to be able to GET to your BOL...

Just a thought.

ETA - But isolation is not a good idea. Having a small community of like-minded people that also know how to grow food, raise animals and hunt/skin is a really good idea. We like to think of ourselves as "lone wolf badasses" but the reality is that humans are social creatures down to our very DNA. We need each other to survive for long periods of time. In fact wolves are never "lone" either.

Pandemic is also one of the most plausible scenarios.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/664806_Is-This-a-Pandemic-Being-Born-.html&page=13

Yup.
I dread being at work when "flu. " season is in full swing.
Even being as careful as you can your at risk. Full blown hivsarh121cp3o virus....it better to self contain.
But even in large urban areas you can do the same. Unless it goes full blown 28 days later scenario.
Heck I did the whole containment room..positive pressure room buit out live on here back around 05ish ...it'd suck to stay laid up for that long.

I'm not the OP, but the simple fact is life is not so simple for everyone. Just like all the "why don't you move" comments to people who live in commie states. I know everyone on the internet is the tuff guy who can go and do whatever they please at a whim, but that isn't reality for most people. 

Those same people who drop mega cash on toys and other luxuries you mean.

If you want it..you do it.

However. Most do not.
Moving to xyz for x reason isn't on most folks radar.
But that 500$ in mnt.house..water filter and backpack means they are "prepared".

It's like losing weight..working out..building skills sets. You can't just wish your way out of it.
I'm not picking a fight with you.
But so many people come up with reasons WHY they can't relocate vs doing it


Location has to be X miles from medical..X minutes from the comedy club and tappas bar..X miles from so and so school district.
Oh..I got a new 60k $ Suv...a 1200$ carbine....I went on my thrid cruise of the year.

Don't boohoo that you can't move from a ban state..or to a sustainable location if your not making the effort to even get there.


I busted my ass to get debt free...on 40k a year..to relocate..to prep...to train.

Did I get to post cool pics of a tricked out AR...or all matching tier 1 gear on the web.

Nope. Sure didn't.

The majority of the people your defending..do just that.


You can buy your preps as an insurance policy or you can make it a lifestyle change in order to be better prepared.
Most opt out for the 1st...why.?
It's easier.


Plus momma needs to be 10 minutes from walmart.

Everyone has different priorities. Some peoples priorities are family, some are keeping up with the Jones, some are people living in fear for an even than may never happen. Only you can chose how you want to live, but some of the one size fits all answers that everyone post here are stupid. 

Just MOVE already!

Wow! This thread went from 0 to GD pretty quick.