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Posted: 2/20/2017 9:21:17 AM EDT
Looking to out fit another AR15 (6.8 SPC) mainly as a pig rig and thought about dabbling with some form of night vision optic or thermal gear. Then it hit on me, maybe I should not just dabble.........as it could be used as a defensive tool as well.
So, the question is, should NODs be a necessity as a part of your survival plan? TIA |
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[#1]
If you can afford it, and you've done the other, more basic preparations already, then hell yes it should.
I have a PVS-14, nothing fancy. But after playing with it, I realized, I'd sell all but my last rifle before I sold that thing. |
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[#2]
Being able to fight well at night as well as being able to make a potential stealthier bug out at night is a definite plus.
Being able to positively identify friend from foe while pulling security around your retreat or homestead is a huge plus. All that being said, it's important to know how to operate at night WITHOUT NV also. I know that's odd coming from a guy that sells night vision, but it's true. Like anything survival related, you have to know how to go about without it as well. It will greatly augment any and all skills you currently have. You will need to spend some time training with your NV just like your fighting rifle and other gear. Besides, it's fun to be out at night If anyone has any questions related to this sort of thing, feel free to post them or email me. |
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[#5]
If you have the money to spare (prices are dropping though) and have covered the bases on the basics then yes start looking at things like NVGs to further expand your tool kit.
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[#6]
I've always believed that stacking the deck in my favor for that type of situation, is a definite necessity. It's kinda like an arms race in a way. so many folks have them that if you don't you'd be at a definite disadvantage. I'm fortunate that in my area not many folks even seen interested, and don't want to spend the money for NV stuff. I'm sure there's a few out there though, but likely Gen 1 stuff.
So yes, NV stuff, thermal, and various sensor equipment are all in my plans. Each person has their own thoughts about what's necessary, but that's mine. |
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[#7]
We accept the fact that we'll never need them lol.
...but yes, they are tier 1 basic load. It comes down to disposable income. Can you afford to tie up 3K in plastic/glass or do you have more pressing hobbies? |
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[#9]
I think they are a an amazing force multiplier. Being able to see in the dark is a fantastic advantage.
They don't have to be $3K versions, either. Those are definitely the best, for sure: no argument. But I have a PVS-14 with a Photonis GenII SHP tube in it that I have set up in a binocular mount with a TNVC GenIII autogated unit. 95% of the time, I can't really tell a difference. On a moonless night under a forest canopy is where I can tell a difference between them. There are also used Gen III with a older OMNI spec that are available for a decent price on our very own EE, occasionally. |
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[#10]
NVG stuff comes off as snobbery to some. My advice, never GEN 1...it is toy grade and not worth it. Haven't looked through Gen 2 in a while...Gen 3 is the answer.
Tube longevity, clarity, etc are the way to go. You can try an old pvs-7b gen 3 for 1200 -1500 if you look around. The long distance clarity is clearly not as nice as the newest stuff, but it will be good enough. Depends on terrain, but I'm thinking a thermal could be handy. Scan large areas fast and "heat" pops out...there's some value in that. |
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[#11]
Quoted:
NVG stuff comes off as snobbery to some. My advice, never GEN 1...it is toy grade and not worth it. Haven't looked through Gen 2 in a while...Gen 3 is the answer. Tube longevity, clarity, etc are the way to go. You can try an old pvs-7b gen 3 for 1200 -1500 if you look around. The long distance clarity is clearly not as nice as the newest stuff, but it will be good enough. Depends on terrain, but I'm thinking a thermal could be handy. Scan large areas fast and "heat" pops out...there's some value in that. View Quote +1. GEN 3 or don't bother. Honestly I wouldn't even bother with the PVS-7s and just say if it's not a PVS-14, keep saving money. I have both PVS-14s and thermal (FLIR's best at that time, > $10K price tag) and I'd rather have more PVS-14s than the thermal, people and animals blend in way better than you'd expect, and thermal doesn't see through brush any more than NV does and the resolution is pretty low. The integrated scopes (NV with thermal overall) would probably be best, but the price tag is still unacceptable. NV is a major force multiplier. While it's commonplace among militaries, it's not something the average threat in a normal rural or urban environment is going to be using or looking out for. When I hear a bump in the night, I leave the lights out and turn on the PVS-14 to look out the windows -- bonus being the IR illuminators on my security cameras are floodlights to a PVS-14. You can easily observe your surroundings without exposing yourself, which is a big win in my book. Don't forget there's a NV forum (armory/night vision) here on arfcom. |
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[#12]
Quoted:
Being able to fight well at night as well as being able to make a potential stealthier bug out at night is a definite plus. Being able to positively identify friend from foe while pulling security around your retreat or homestead is a huge plus. All that being said, it's important to know how to operate at night WITHOUT NV also. I know that's odd coming from a guy that sells night vision, but it's true. Like anything survival related, you have to know how to go about without it as well. It will greatly augment any and all skills you currently have. You will need to spend some time training with your NV just like your fighting rifle and other gear. Besides, it's fun to be out at night If anyone has any questions related to this sort of thing, feel free to post them or email me. View Quote Nv rookie here... How important / useful is an IR laser for aiming, when using NV? |
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[#13]
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[#14]
Depends if the other guy has nod...lol. If so, then you run a can and an aimpoint w/ nvg settings (passive).
I don't have a thermal, but yes, the cheap scout has low resolution. Price goes up exponentially. I'd like to try one in the wild though. The 14 is probably the way to go these days. The concept of scanning a vast area quickly with flir, sounds good. Sure the enemy can be masked, but we're assuming they aren't as savvy or don't know you're there. Scan with flir, walk with 14. |
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[#15]
Quoted:
Nv rookie here... How important / useful is an IR laser for aiming, when using NV? View Quote Extremely. You can do a weapon mount behind a NV capable dot sight if you want to, but it has limitations. The only advantage to this method is that it is passive. If you're out and about and see lasers pointing at you, it would be a fair assumption that the other people have NV. Then using a NVD passively would be an advantage. In all other cases it's better to helmet mount and use a IR laser. |
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[#16]
For the majority of people, spending time getting training with flashlights or weapon lights will go a lot further than the NVG investment. You are really going to need to have your other prep/finance/transportation bases covered for NVG stuff to make sense.
The other thing to consider, is WHERE are you going to practice with your NVGs? Shooting is just a small part of it. You MUST practice walking around in the woods, in the desert, in your house, driving, etc.. If you don't practice, you'll be better off with light discipline and light training. Do you live in an area you can hunt with them? Do you have any local NVG training classes to go learn how to use them? |
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[#17]
A lot of people when they buy a 14 assume they will weapons mount the unit and run it that way.
After TRAINING with the unit or even just spending a fair amount of time hunting with one set up that way, most folks end up head or helmet mounting the 14 and putting an IR laser on the rifle as the aiming point for the NV. As far as the IR signature goes when using an IR laser, consider that you are never going to totally erase your target signature at night. 30 years ago one of the old SF guys that trained us took us out one night and put the small little cyalume sticks that people used to use for fishing on some targets. We had to learn to shoot them with iron sights. Someone asked them "what's the purpose of the cyalume stick?" He answered that it was to simulate a muzzle flash. When their was absolutely no other input, that's what you trained to shoot at. Proper use of an IR laser is pressing the switch, taking the shot and immediately releasing the switch. Ideally if possible you would move a bit also (muzzle flash still being a potential target indicator). Further- when a 14 is weapons mounted, it's now for the time being "married" to the rifle. This means every time you want to get a "look" around via the NV, you have to raise the rifle, hold it up and turn your whole body. When it's head or helmet mounted you can keep your muzzle in a safe direction (not potentially flagging teammates via swinging the weapon) while turning just your head to get a "look" around. Less arm fatigue, less potential safety issues. Hopefully that makes sense. |
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[#18]
Being in a friendly area, where you can walk around at night and perhaps shoot a bit may be tough for some.
Some guys run pricey laser modules with dual capability, so zeroing can be done in daylight. Unless you live in hog country, it may just sit...and sit...and sit. |
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[#19]
My two poor boy pennies.
Nvg has a place. But you need to cover your other needs vs threat vs mission etc. When I lived in the city..it was low on the list for specific reasons. Lots of ambient light...lots of targets so PID wasn't a factor in my bug out ROE....I planned on bugging out fast. Since I relocated to a rural area. Its bounced up the list fast on an item that could be paramount to success. Reasons are simple. I'm not leaving (sans total destruction via natural disaster.). Very low to no light sources even with the grid up. My plan is more defensive. This means being "sneaky" . That means seeing before being seen..getting important Intel on locations ...roads...etc etc. I don't own any ..yet. But it's unwise to over look their usage due to cost. Once that isn't an issue they will be on my short list. Till then it's back to old school. Noise..light ..movement..camo discipline. |
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[#20]
Depends on scenario, like stated. It's better to look out the windows of a blacked out house w/nvg than step out in darkness and find 3 guys in your driveway. The old school tactics are fine, but there are a lot of scenarios where you can's see or hear anything, don't want to shine a light, have to pop out of a car or structure and not wait 20 minutes staring in dark, need to walk/move very fast and can't sit and wait...
You don't want to be surprised by someone who just stopped for a sec and is still. The nod increase the identification range to a distance that allows you to move, hide, get prone, before you're heard or seen by someone with just eyeballs. In other words, I don't want to run into people at 10 feet and have to figure things out. Just get something decent, if it's gen 3 you can sell it for what you bought it for if your mood changes. It comes down to one factor most of the time...just one...how much cash do you have to spend on accessories? Sell junk and get solid gear. |
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[#21]
Good points.
Most of us have "more than a few" extra rifles, most of which will likely never see the light of day if something bad ever happens. I've talked to dozens upon dozens of people that sold extra equipment to pay for their NV purchases. That advice is almost sacrilege to the "collector" but as survivalists, we should be USING and training with our equipment, not just collecting it. |
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[#22]
Hey guy, thanks for chiming in. Lots of great food for thought here.
In the process of reducing the number of rifles on hand to parlay the proceed into something good. Unfortunately, the glut of AR15s on the market may result in a longer than desire fund building process. Keep going with the good info! |
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[#23]
Quoted:
VERY... View Quote not if you have a scope IR lazurs are good for CQB where you want heads up time on need fast shots. They are not that great for anything at moderate range(spotlight effect) or if you want to stay concealed while shooting. The use of IRs downrange is fine when the people in mud huts cant see it, but if you're planning to use it in a western theater in SHTF, expect to get shot real quick by other people not using them. so unless your kicking doors in shtf I would pass on the lazer and concentrate on a dual use setup. |
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[#24]
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[#25]
I finally took the plunge last year. I found a good deal on a NVM-2AA gen 3 with an older 10160 tube for $1500. The NVM-2AA body feels much sturdier than the PVS-14 body. I had an ACH that I got for a steal years back. I did a high cut mod and rigged the helmet up for night ops with a titanium rhino 2 mount. I also got a good deal on a used ops core dial suspension system and mounted it in the helmet.
I just purchased a used Steiner OTAL ir laser for my rifle for $350. So, for under $2000 I have a good gen 3 hands free NVG set up with a duty quality ir laser for my rifle! My point is, it doesn't cost $3000 and up to get into the game. I will post pics later. |
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[#26]
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[#27]
Quoted:
QD for helmet/gun use. I.e can use them for more than just one purpose View Quote Of course. I have an aimpoint with NV settings and a pvs 14 weapon mount so I can go passive if need be. Like was stated before, in a SHTF scenario when you could be facing others that might have NVG capabilities some training and discipline is required. You don't want to run around all willy nilly with your ir light on your NVGs, or lasing everything that moves with the laser just because you can. You would only use the ir if it was a last resort and if you had good cover and/or maneuverability on the opfor. Because either way you have given up your location and even if the opfor doesn't have NVGs they will be spraying in your direction and it sucks IMTing with NODs!!! |
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[#28]
NVDs are what the Military calls a "force multiplier". Used properly, and by that I mean intelligently, such a device might make the difference between life and death in certain situations. As with any such technical aid, one should make a point of training in its' use. NVDs are not something one can don, turn on, and then proceed full speed ahead. There is definitely a learning curve to using NVDs, and intelligent users will practice with them before they are needed for serious social interaction.
In the same (albeit less expensive) vein, I would consider body armor a force multiplier. But more important than all the above is good fieldcraft skills, and good marksmanship. These skills are learned, and there are plenty of ways to acquire such skills. So, in direct answer to OP's question, Yes, NVDs can be a game-changing tool, but there are any number of things to acquire/learn first. |
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[#29]
IR lazurs are good for CQB where you want heads up time on need fast shots.
They are not that great for anything at moderate range(spotlight effect) or if you want to stay concealed while shooting. View Quote I have used a day green laser in a dark room and it "lights" up a small room. I can't imagine the reflections and glare from mil strength units in a small room. I think the peq-15 comes with a filter to tame it, but it's pricey...ridiculous pricey. I have no CQB/dark experience, but I'd prob roll with a light. At room distances I'm not hung up on what you have...you can hit at 10 feet with just a light and body index. In fantasy scenario, room people will turn on light or use visible light on you...you will tilt nod up and use something else to aim with. I'm guessing that room clearing isn't gonna be my survival task. Probably just lookout, patrol, hunting, driving?. As far as shooting at long range with a laser, it depends on what you consider moderate. The laser will be tight enough to get you on target well up to the range of your NOD. Strong mil lasers will be like poking a light saber out to many hundreds of yards. You will fire more than once and prob forget about drop and offset...and have to fire more. Now you need a can! It's terrible... |
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[#30]
Being able to see in the dark is a superpower. If you can afford it, get it.
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[#31]
Is there any type of nv training someone could take?
In my mind, there would be two levels for the n00b Using night vision at night, basics 101 And Shooting with NV Does civilian training exist with this knowledge? |
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[#32]
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[#33]
Quoted:
I'm posting from my phone and just trying to illustrate a point. I am not trying to be a jerk. ..you will tilt nod up and use something else to aim with. In a lit room that laser will still work, it won't be ideal but I'm not going to flip my device up because light is present. As far as shooting at long range with a laser, it depends on what you consider moderate. 250M sounds moderate to me. How far can you shoot, in the dark with any normal sighting system rapidly without using illumination of some kind? Probably not very far. . View Quote The advantages any NVD can give you far outweigh any perceived or actual shortcoming. You don't need to flip your device up if you have any type of sights, and the device (monocular) is over your non dominant eye. You just use the sights. |
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[#34]
Anyone who wants motivation for this as a defense prep need only to watch that movie 13 hours.
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[#35]
I know most people scoff at me for buying this however, for $450 and 24 months 0% financing to pay for it, I figured I would give the ATN X-Sight II 3-14 a shot.
Really do not consider this as an expenditure towards SHTF NODs, but rather as an inexpensive experiment. I will most likely be able to sell it for what I paid, if not more. It will fill the primary role for optics on my pig rig (day and night) and also give the some of the benefits as a defensive tool. At least I can start to get a feel for NV and gather the ancillary components such as IR lasers and illuminators. |
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[#36]
I know most people scoff at me for buying this however, for $450 and 24 months 0% financing to pay for it, I figured I would give the ATN X-Sight II 3-14 a shot. View Quote $450. a month X 24= $10,800. ? |
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[#37]
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[#39]
Quoted:
QD for helmet/gun use. I.e can use them for more than just one purpose View Quote One problem with this is a lot of helmet mount NODs, including PVS-14s, have significantly reduced life spans when exposed to recoil. Other points are valid that it is harder to hit at range with a laser but I would caveat that with training you can be just as effective. Remember until you spend much much much money you're not going to be able to PID a target past 250-300 meters in most conditions to engage and inside of 300 a laser is more than adequate against a two legged sized target. Another thing that hasn't been brought up is thermal vs. night vision. They are very complimentary to each other and one of the mini style thermals such as the Leupold LTO or FLIR scout (both under $600) can provide great target detection at the short to intermediate range where most NV have issues identifying stationary targets or targets in shadows a cheap thermal can easily spot stationary targets. |
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[#40]
Quoted:
I know most people scoff at me for buying this however, for $450 and 24 months 0% financing to pay for it, I figured I would give the ATN X-Sight II 3-14 a shot. Really do not consider this as an expenditure towards SHTF NODs, but rather as an inexpensive experiment. I will most likely be able to sell it for what I paid, if not more. It will fill the primary role for optics on my pig rig (day and night) and also give the some of the benefits as a defensive tool. At least I can start to get a feel for NV and gather the ancillary components such as IR lasers and illuminators. View Quote Who's doing 0%? |
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[#41]
Quoted:
The advantages any NVD can give you far outweigh any perceived or actual shortcoming. You don't need to flip your device up if you have any type of sights, and the device (monocular) is over your non dominant eye. You just use the sights. View Quote I'm running a pvs 7 and a dual tube rig. I have a problem...I have to flip up or pull off! We have to define our fantasy. A large target like a vehicle or a pig? The amount of helpful light...stars, moon. Yes, range varies and 250 is a poke. I am thinking about splitting the dual tube into a 14 rig, but not a priority for a while. As everyone with decent gear says...get gen 3, just do it! |
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[#42]
Quoted:
Who's doing 0%? View Quote Amazon store credit does 0% for 12 months along with a $40 discount on the 1st order. PayPal credit does 0% for 6months, and sometimes longer on special promos. Has saved me $$$ over the years. Just gotta make sure you get it paid off before the due date! |
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[#43]
Quoted:
Looking to out fit another AR15 (6.8 SPC) mainly as a pig rig and thought about dabbling with some form of night vision optic or thermal gear. Then it hit on me, maybe I should not just dabble.........as it could be used as a defensive tool as well. So, the question is, should NODs be a necessity as a part of your survival plan? TIA View Quote where to shoot a pig in n/jersey ?? pvs-14's gen 3 3800-4200$ peq-15 no available for civies. comparable cicilian model model 1000$ surefire ir/white lite for ar 300.$ hand held same as ar no mount 300$ pistol lite same 300$ learning how to use it for real from some hi speed retired guy. l.e. doesn't have a clue, 1000$ (for 3 days-food-motel-ammo-misc)class alone is 650$ yes its good for all things yes i have the complete set up yes i had all the BASES COVERED 1ST only u can call it. as u now know u just don.t buy nod's and put them on. little more to it. good luck 1texan |
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[#44]
So share some of this knowledge.
I'm not trying to over-simplify, but what is so hard about shooting at night? You either look through an Aimpoint w/ nvg settings or you shine an IR laser. This is 10 level infantry stuff at best. |
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[#45]
Keep in mind shooting is just one skill you will need to be able to do while operating NV. But it is the one most people seem the most hung up on. So-
If going head or helmet mounted, most right handed shooters will run the 14 over the LEFT eye. Seems backwards but just keep reading.... The IR laser is mounted on the rifle. Rifle is carried at normal patrol carry relaxed type position until needed to shoot. Note that if you weapons mounted the 14, the NV would only be viewable with the rifle up in the shoulder pocket. This means arm fatigue issues after doing it for a while. Especially if you: A. Aren't used to that for long periods of time. B. Have a heavy rifle C. Have a lot of extra bells and whistles on your rifle- optics, lights, tactical cowbell, luggage wheel, etc. Some things you can do to get better with that. Hold your rifle out in front of you one handed like a pistol, extended in front of your body. Watch the clock. After a minute or two, switch hands and do the same with the left. Suffice to say most of us will probably only be able to last about a minute or so like that and then have to switch hands. That exercise can also help show you how balanced your rifle is as well. Back to NV- So the head or helmet mounted way to go saves on arm fatigue but also makes it safer working around other people. Say you and Joe, Bob and Harry are out checking out the neighborhood. You have your 14 weapons mounted and have to have the rifle up to your shoulder to view it. You hear or sense something to the left and quickly scan that way with the NV (rifle attached), you just muzzle swept Bob. In same scenario if you were head or helmet mounted you would have turned your head to look, the way God designed your body to work. Then when you saw the threat you could have -head, body, weapon- responded to the threat without sweeping Bob. As far as shooting with NV in this manner. The one thing you DON'T want to try to do, that rarely works out, if to head or helmet mount the NV and then try to line that up (on your head remember) with the optic on your rifle (think ACOG, Aimpoint, etc.) It's possible to do this, but not very PRACTICAL. Instead your using the IR laser as the aiming point. Most people will find that they don't "turkey neck" as much, instead keeping the head more erect versus cranked over to the side. Some folks will find that a less than optimal shoulder mount will also help this as well. Since your using the IR laser as the aiming point, this less than optimal shoulder position is rarely an issue. Your head up versus cranked over lends itself to better situational awareness as well- where exactly is Bob? Is he moving? Is he on my left? It this sort of arrangement the way to go for say 400 and 500 yard shooting? Perhaps not. But considering PID issues, how many of us are really going to be shooting that far? If you need to shoot that far, a dedicated NV scope might be a better choice. But for moving around, shooting within 200 yards, etc. I would definitely go with a 14 and an IR laser. Two tubes or one? A lot of this is personal preference but consider this. After about 45 minutes or so under NV, your brain can get a bit of a "fog" going (for lack of a better term). I've found that that seems to be the optimal time to flip the 14 up and go without for 10 minutes or so and let my brain clear. When it's mounted over my left eye and I flip it up, I still have my God given night vision in my right eye- as well as my ACOG to sight with. If you were running a PVS7 or another device wherein both eyes are in the "green glow" then you could be without a lot of natural night vision when you took this sensory break. That's not saying dual tube units suck, they don't. Quite the contrary if you were running something like a BNVD you could alternate eyes during the sensory break. Or you could just deal with during that time period. A Wilcox amber filter really helps make the view of the screen less "harsh." That can help with the brain fog also. Like JKM said shooting with them isn't really any super spectacular hard to learn skill. But like anything else it requires some training and practice. In general if your fundamentals are good during the day, they will typically be similar at night. If you have to look where your magazines are during a change during the day, it's going to be that much tougher at night. |
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[#46]
Thanks for info. I had not worn them long enough to get in a fog yet. I'll have to try some tasks.
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[#47]
Quoted:
So share some of this knowledge. I'm not trying to over-simplify, but what is so hard about shooting at night? You either look through an Aimpoint w/ nvg settings or you shine an IR laser. This is 10 level infantry stuff at best. View Quote Its not just shooting, Anybody can look through nods stand still and put a laser on a target. Yes, Its stuff a basic infantry men should know but its not something they go out and do a few nights and perfect. Being in Afghanistan with an infantry company and operating with Afghan military and other U.S. military infantry units its not something every infantrymen is proficient at and its not something a civilian is going to be able to get proficient at over night. I would say start with a little walking around and then go out and do some hog or critter hunting and you will slowly learn. If you want to get proficient at using them for gun fighting then shooting and moving is a lot different than walking or hunting hogs or critters. Walking/navigating Running IMTing from cover to cover Light discipline IR discipline blackout driving (thats really nerve racking!) |
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[#48]
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[#49]
Quoted:
I'm not trying to over-simplify, but what is so hard about shooting at night? This is 10 level infantry stuff at best. View Quote does our infantry fight others NVDs users??? If they did they would get their asses handed to them with their poor IR discipline and lining up a RD/nog is a pita and takes training. |
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[#50]
Smithy...I borrowed a pair of anvis 5's back in the day and tried a little blackout driving...was entertaining.
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