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Posted: 8/22/2015 9:36:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 9:49:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Excellent writeup, very informative. Thanks for typing that all out for us.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 10:11:19 PM EDT
[#2]
Interesting. I used 650kwh in December,  you use a bunch o power.
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 10:15:29 PM EDT
[#3]
Nice system and write up Paul
I put in a PV system this year at my home in central AZ. I went with an Outback system using two Radian GS8048 inverters, 3 FLEXmax 80 charge controllers, a Mate 3 system controller, 12 EnergyCell 220GH  AGM batteries (~30kwh capacity) and 30 Solarworld 275W panels flat mounted on my roof (8.25KW).
This system has produced between 1000 - 1300 kwh per month since March of this year, more than I use so I'm a net producer. Peak output in full noon sun is ~7kw. The inverters can put out 16kw continuous/ 32kw peak power, enough to run anything in the house including the central air. I can also hook my gen set into the inverters as a secondary source of power. The inverters can be set to limit the draw from the generator to match the output (or less if desired) for running the house loads or battery charging.

This was not a cheap system because of the battery back up and the over sized inverters. I wanted backup power and the over sized inverters allows them to run at a max of 50% load most of the time thereby extending their service life and adding redundancy should an inverter fail.


Link Posted: 8/22/2015 10:23:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Great review and nice installation!

Thanks


ETA ---That tree needed to come out soon, IMO...
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 10:37:43 PM EDT
[#5]
My wife wants to do this.

How does the structure attach to the roof?
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 11:20:52 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 8/22/2015 11:27:12 PM EDT
[#7]
Link Posted: 8/23/2015 1:07:07 AM EDT
[#8]
Paul I'd be very interested in the inverter/charger setup you have for the UPS. Solaredge DC optimizers and grid-tie inverter here, so possibly a similar approach as you if I added a UPS system. I'd like the ability to tie in a generator as well for additional capacity with the grid down. I'd appreciate any details you feel comfortable providing on your system.

My plan for the future has been a forklift battery and an inverter/charger, but I wasn't 100% on the "off label" approach to convincing the panels to turn on.

Edit: I've looked at the Magnum Power solution, figured I'd be able to power all house loads except the A/C, possibly using a standalone unit or a couple window units to keep the first floor cool. Generator+solar would let me run one house AC unit if needed.
Link Posted: 8/23/2015 7:29:52 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

I used about 12% more power in 2015 than I did 12 years ago.



[...]



The panels are 280 watt so that means about 18 panels.



[...]



Finally the 18 two hundred and eighty watt panels and 18 microinverters were mounted.



[...]

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Paul, from your calculations you estimated that you would need 18 panels to meet your current usage, and then you had them install 18.  Did you think about having them install a couple extra while they were already there just so you could get ahead of future increases in your power usage?  Would it be cheap enough to do it in the future even when the federal tax credit expires?
 
Link Posted: 8/23/2015 11:48:24 AM EDT
[#10]
Excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
Link Posted: 8/23/2015 12:01:13 PM EDT
[#11]
Link Posted: 8/23/2015 11:08:02 PM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
My wife wants to do this.

How does the structure attach to the roof?
View Quote


The key is we put lags into trusses/rafters and make sure that the flashing is properly lined up.  If done well, it actually strengthens the roof and is probably more waterproof than any other roof penetration you have.  

There's a video on this company's website that shows some of what goes on with tile roofs and solar.  Tile roofing is definitely more of a PITA for us to install on than a composite shingle roof.  A lot of us spec Quickmount flashing for our installs.  Permitting departments are very concerned about roof integrity after the install and require a lot of details in the permit submittals about what products will be used.   As I like to tell my students, it's not rocket science.  


Paul...  Inverters are pretty frequency sensitive.  A requirement of UL 1741.  They probably won't come on if you trying to fool them with the generators.  Every time a load switches on/off, you'd see an output shift on the generator...  so would the microinverters.   The UPS may work.  It depends how clean the inverter phase is...  I've seen some pretty crappy 60Hz out of UPS systems.  You'd probably be better off AC coupling with an off-grid inverter sometime down the road.  


Link Posted: 8/26/2015 12:19:08 AM EDT
[#13]
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 1:43:33 PM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:


Thanks. We haven't gotten to the point where I start hacking the system.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Paul...  Inverters are pretty frequency sensitive.  A requirement of UL 1741.  They probably won't come on if you trying to fool them with the generators.  Every time a load switches on/off, you'd see an output shift on the generator...  so would the microinverters.   The UPS may work.  It depends how clean the inverter phase is...  I've seen some pretty crappy 60Hz out of UPS systems.  You'd probably be better off AC coupling with an off-grid inverter sometime down the road.  


Thanks. We haven't gotten to the point where I start hacking the system.

Not that I've ever tried to fool a grid-tied inverter [cough cough], but some of the inverter based generators put out pretty clean AC, even during a significant load change.

The issue comes when the loads are a lot less than the power being generated.  The solar system will try to backfeed the generator.  That could get expensive depending upon how the generator output changes when loads drop off-line.   If the generator voltage climbs, it may be enough to trigger a shutdown of the inverter(s).  But I'm not sure I'd want to risk the health of my generator on that.  

In any case, if I were inclined to experiment I'd make sure that the generator was at least as large as the inverter(s) nameplate output.  And I'd make sure my minimum load was at least 80% of the same.   Not that I would ever advocate trying to fool a grid-tied inverter.

But I won't tell if you don't....
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 1:52:47 PM EDT
[#15]
We are meeting with the solar company this evening about installing the system into the house we are building.

Will report with updates.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 2:04:53 PM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:

Not that I've ever tried to fool a grid-tied inverter [cough cough], but some of the inverter based generators put out pretty clean AC, even during a significant load change.

The issue comes when the loads are a lot less than the power being generated.  The solar system will try to backfeed the generator.  That could get expensive depending upon how the generator output changes when loads drop off-line.   If the generator voltage climbs, it may be enough to trigger a shutdown of the inverter(s).  But I'm not sure I'd want to risk the health of my generator on that.  

In any case, if I were inclined to experiment I'd make sure that the generator was at least as large as the inverter(s) nameplate output.  And I'd make sure my minimum load was at least 80% of the same.   Not that I would ever advocate trying to fool a grid-tied inverter.

But I won't tell if you don't....
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Paul...  Inverters are pretty frequency sensitive.  A requirement of UL 1741.  They probably won't come on if you trying to fool them with the generators.  Every time a load switches on/off, you'd see an output shift on the generator...  so would the microinverters.   The UPS may work.  It depends how clean the inverter phase is...  I've seen some pretty crappy 60Hz out of UPS systems.  You'd probably be better off AC coupling with an off-grid inverter sometime down the road.  


Thanks. We haven't gotten to the point where I start hacking the system.

Not that I've ever tried to fool a grid-tied inverter [cough cough], but some of the inverter based generators put out pretty clean AC, even during a significant load change.

The issue comes when the loads are a lot less than the power being generated.  The solar system will try to backfeed the generator.  That could get expensive depending upon how the generator output changes when loads drop off-line.   If the generator voltage climbs, it may be enough to trigger a shutdown of the inverter(s).  But I'm not sure I'd want to risk the health of my generator on that.  

In any case, if I were inclined to experiment I'd make sure that the generator was at least as large as the inverter(s) nameplate output.  And I'd make sure my minimum load was at least 80% of the same.   Not that I would ever advocate trying to fool a grid-tied inverter.

But I won't tell if you don't....


Question for you.
My Outback inverters work in both grid tied and backup mode. I assume they do this by load matching demand in backup mode but put out 100% when pushing to the grid?

Second question, strictly grid tied inverters do not need batteries to operate. As I understand it the dual grid/backup inverts must have a substantial battery bank hooked up to smooth out the DC load ripple.  Can you explain how the two inverters differ electronically?

I wish I had a nice block diagram to compare these two inverter types.
Link Posted: 8/26/2015 4:13:46 PM EDT
[#17]
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Quoted:
Question for you.
My Outback inverters work in both grid tied and backup mode. I assume they do this by load matching demand in backup mode but put out 100% when pushing to the grid?
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Quoted:
Question for you.
My Outback inverters work in both grid tied and backup mode. I assume they do this by load matching demand in backup mode but put out 100% when pushing to the grid?


Depends on which Outback you have and how you have the thing configured.  But typically, yes.  If the batteries are full and the critical load panel isn't using any power, all array power will push to the grid side of the inverter/charger.  But energy from the array goes first to the battery, second to critical load, third to non-critical load and finally to the grid in the default configuration.

But you can also set it up the system for peak load shaving and any other number of things where it will use the array and what's in the batteries to push power to the grid for something like a peak feed-in.  It gets pretty damn complicated.  


Second question, strictly grid tied inverters do not need batteries to operate. As I understand it the dual grid/backup inverts must have a substantial battery bank hooked up to smooth out the DC load ripple.  Can you explain how the two inverters differ electronically?


By DC Load Ripple I'm assuming you mean the ripple back-fed into the DC side from the H-bridge (or equivalent) of the inverter making AC?  Ripple is an issue on grid-tied inverters too.  But a minor one.  Ripple is mostly controlled through capacitors...  Though a big battery could be treated as a capacitor.   Most off-grid capable inverters are transformer based.  So it's difficult to isolate the ripple.  New grid-tied only inverters are more likely to be transformerless.  Frankly, I don't know if that's cured the ripple or made it worse.  I've not put an o-scope on the DC side of one of those.  

The battery bank size is more a function of load profile and autonomy requirements.  Yes, there are minimum battery bank sizes, but that typically has more to do with the charging side than inverting side.   I think the minimum battery size on an Outback is about 100Ah (don't quote me).  That's not a lot of energy stored.  In a 48V system, that gives you less than 2.5kWh of useful energy since we try not to cycle lead acid batteries below 50% Depth of Discharge.  The last couple of off-grid systems I had to design had banks in the 2500 - 3000Ah range.  

But we're seeing more and move battery-backed grid-tied systems using AC coupling.  In those systems, a grid-tied inverter is connected to a critical load panel.  A second inverter that's grid-interactive, but battery powered is also connected to the critical load panel.  It fools the grid-tied inverter into thinking it's tied to the grid.    The advantage is that most of the power to the critical load panel is free of the losses associated with batteries, charge controllers and lower voltage PV strings.  The downside is that it's more expensive to implement than a system like yours.  

Block diagram:



I wish I had a nice block diagram to compare these two inverter types.


Well, here's a block diagram for an ABB grid-tied transformerless inverter:  



Note the lack of transformer.  I couldn't quickly find an equivalent block diagram for an off-grid inverter.  

Until a few years ago, most inverters in the States were transformer based.  The only real difference between grid-tied and off-grid was the range of DC input voltages the inverter worked with.  You could, in theory, wire up a battery bank to something like 250 - 300Vdc and run most grid-tied inverters.  You just wouldn't have the "charge from the grid" function like you see in your Outback system.  And the Code has all kinds of (somewhat painful) rules about battery banks of 50Vdc or over, which is why we tend to stick to 48V battery banks in the States.  

As the price of PV modules has dropped the last few years (wholesale has dropped more than 75% since 2009), off-grid systems have gone from being battery heavy to being module heavy.  That usually works well because the load profile at night is typically a lot lower than during the day...  but not always.  So PV arrays are sized to power everything and charge the batteries during the day.  

Still battery-based solar is a very small part of the business.  I do dozens of grid-tied system designs for every one off-grid system design.  I haven't had an off-grid project yet this month - though I'm told one is coming later this week.  
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 9:16:37 AM EDT
[#18]
Thanks dog for the explanation.
When I first decided to instal solar I considered the micro inverter panels but quickly decided against them once the problem of backup power was realized. Then came the choice of type and size of the battery stack needed to allow the inverters to push full output to the grid.
I quickly found a lot of opinions were you need a lot of battery capacity to equalize the ripple current link1 link2associated with pushing grid power.  After discussion with the Outback rep I went with the Outback AGM batteries.
They are working nicely and even in the July heat with full sun on the panels the batteries stayed at room temp (~80F). Hopefully I can get 10 years out of them.

Link Posted: 8/27/2015 12:17:42 PM EDT
[#19]
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Quoted:
Thanks dog for the explanation.
When I first decided to instal solar I considered the micro inverter panels but quickly decided against them once the problem of backup power was realized. Then came the choice of type and size of the battery stack needed to allow the inverters to push full output to the grid.
I quickly found a lot of opinions were you need a lot of battery capacity to equalize the ripple current link1 link2associated with pushing grid power.  After discussion with the Outback rep I went with the Outback AGM batteries.
They are working nicely and even in the July heat with full sun on the panels the batteries stayed at room temp (~80F). Hopefully I can get 10 years out of them.

View Quote

There is some good information and some not so good information in those links.  Looks to me like only one person was talking about AC ripple.  And I remember that guy.  I stopped following that forum some years ago because of several arm-chair solar pros and a really bad shipping experience by the company who hosts it.  The information on the Outback forum will always be of higher quality.  

Now the idea that a battery bank would be discharged quickly, recharged, then discharged again in a repeating cycle because the bank is "too small" is not the definition of ripple....  It's poor design.  That a big battery bank is more immune to ripple than a small one only occurs when the battery bank is woefully undersized for the charging capacity.  Your bank is not more susceptible to ripple than a battery bank twice its size.  It's like a guy trying to fill a pool from a bucket.  House size or Olympic size it doesn't really matter.  No effect.  One of those plastic kiddie pools is another story.  

But the assumption that a 4kW inverter will always operate at full power means there was another design issue. Someone undersized their system.  

Someone panned the idea of load analysis earlier.  And that's simply a bad idea.  Guessing on an off-grid system is a wonderful to either spend way too much money or sit around in the dark a lot.  It's gotten to the point that I won't take work for an off-grid system without at least a list of loads.  And in most cases where I turned them down and they've designed it themselves, they've come back for help (either to me or a colleague).  

When it comes to strings of batteries, I do try to minimize the number of parallel strings.  Proper charging becomes problematic since more parallel strings makes it tough to balance all the impedances.,  It leads to early failure in one of the strings...  which only drags down the rest of them.  In an engineered solution like you have, I'm less concerned about three strings.  But in a battery bank assembled on-site using OTS components, I never design with more than two strings.  And I really prefer one long string of 2V cells over multiple strings of higher voltage cells.  I absolutely refuse to design a system with 4 or more parallel strings.

Good job on controlling the bank temperature.  Between that and high average state of charge, 10 years could be very feasible.  I'm on 5 years for my solar charged RV batteries, and they don't get nearly the love you're giving yours.   But every once in a while, give your batteries a workout.  Batteries that don't occasionally go through a 25% discharge get fat, dumb and lazy.  

Cheers,
B
Link Posted: 8/27/2015 12:24:33 PM EDT
[#20]
We met with the solar guy yesterday evening. A few take aways.

When we designed the house, we thought that we designed a large enough space on the roof to fit the solar panels. We were wrong. Each panel is roughly 18 square feet. We can only fit about 20 panels facing south, and the rest will need to go west. We need 35 panels.

I figured we would be seeing the lowest bill in the winter... we were wrong, our lowest bill will be from mid march to October. With us going electric heat vs. Natural gas, combined with the amount, or lack thereof, in the winter... we won't be able to produce what we use.

Because of the price, we are signing away our renewable energy credits to the solar company. Currently, ERCOT doesn't allow them to be sold outside of the state so this right now doesn't matter. And frankly, I had no idea what a REC was until last night. So I don't think this bothers me as much.

We will be getting 20% installation because it is a new home build, and they will be able to come in a pre wire making it much less difficult on their part.

The idea of being able to produce energy when the grid is down is out the window. When the grid is down, so are we. Obvious safety reasons.

There are some advantages I never thought about with the Panels, for example: What ever part the of the house is one will be about 5 degree's cooler than the rest of the house during mid day due to the panels providing shade to the roof. That will come in hand in Texas, but right now the panels will be over the garage, Which won't be cooled with AC. It would be nice if it were right over the living room.

Price is a little cheaper than we anticipated. We were quoted $25,000, but it is looking like it will be closer to $22,000. Combine that with a 30% tax credit and a $1,000 incentive check from the power company, Net cost will be about $14,500. So our initial ROI would take about 10 years give or take.

Right now, my wife is 50/50 and I am about 75/25 for it. instead of looking at is as free energy (nothings free), look at is as looking in your rate at about .05 cents vs .11 cents that it is currently and rising every year.



Link Posted: 8/27/2015 7:28:26 PM EDT
[#21]
I'm running into a similar issue on for the solar panels & micro-inverters (MI).  When I was sold the system, the sales person was made aware of an existing backup generator that was previously installed.  I was told that the system designer would take that into account and that the solar panels would generate power as long as the sun was out.

When they came out to do the wiring, the electrician brought to my attention that the MI's need to have power from the Utility to produce power (controls and self islanding so that it doesn't back feed the utility for safety reasons).  If the generator is running, the MI's would sense that and backfeed the generator and cause damage to the generator.

They also touted the Tesla Powerwall which is not in production yet.  From what I can see it looks like they need to be wired directly to the panels before the MI's.

Does anyone know of a way to create a hybrid system without running two systems in parallel (Generator and Solar)?
Link Posted: 9/5/2015 9:00:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Link Posted: 9/5/2015 9:09:56 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 9/7/2015 11:44:53 AM EDT
[#24]
Nice solar system you got there.

Regarding your plan for grid down. You may want to do a little more research. A while back I looked into it and found that simply firing up a quality 60hz pure sine wave generator to trick the micro inverters to turn on isn't the whole piece of the puzzle... something about the micro inverters feeding all that AC back to the generator with nowhere to go can cause problems. The solution was something they were calling "AC Coupling" but it was in its infancy (this was several years ago so maybe there are solutions available now). Cheers.
Link Posted: 9/7/2015 1:39:56 PM EDT
[#25]
Link Posted: 9/7/2015 1:51:07 PM EDT
[#26]
Nice

For a second there I thought the 14kw was a genny.

So you have a battery bank?  I thought perhaps the PV would have been tied into that to begin with.
Link Posted: 9/7/2015 2:32:07 PM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:Regarding your plan for grid down. You may want to do a little more research. A while back I looked into it and found that simply firing up a quality 60hz pure sine wave generator to trick the micro inverters to turn on isn't the whole piece of the puzzle... something about the micro inverters feeding all that AC back to the generator with nowhere to go can cause problems. The solution was something they were calling "AC Coupling" but it was in its infancy (this was several years ago so maybe there are solutions available now).
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Grid down with microinverters can be done by using a Context 6848 (xantec/schneider) Hybrid Inverter system, basically it provides a reference voltage and frequency to the micro inverters to wake them up, when it does this it disconnects from the grid and when the batteries are charged it changes frequency very slightly and the MicroInverters shut off.

Rancher
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 2:07:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Screw you guys.
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Quoted:


I used 865 last December but 1300 in August.

I draw 1 KW every hour just cruising on a freezer, refridgerator, and my UPS system charging.
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Interesting. I used 650kwh in December,  you use a bunch o power.


I used 865 last December but 1300 in August.

I draw 1 KW every hour just cruising on a freezer, refridgerator, and my UPS system charging.



I would love to get into solar to help offset our electrical costs, but we don't have enough southern facing surface and I think we would need too many panels / too big of an installation to make it worthwhile.

I would really like to do it at our planned retirement cabin, but our land is on the north side of our little mountain.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 9:15:27 AM EDT
[#29]
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Quoted:
I would love to get into solar to help offset our electrical costs, but we don't have enough southern facing surface and I think we would need too many panels / too big of an installation to make it worthwhile.
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As I've posted (maybe in another thread), trying to offset full consumption with solar is not really a good idea unless you have excellent net metering (most people don't).  

And biasing an array so that it faces westerly is commonly done to shift the peak solar production to more closely match the peak consumption - something that's especially important when an array is sized to offset the most consumption.  I've done lots of layouts and designs using west facing roof planes.  As long as the roof pitch isn't ridiculously steep, it works.   And with a lot of the new inverters, power optimizers or micro-inverters, it's nothing to have modules facing different directions.  So use south and west facing roof planes.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did a residential project that didn't us at least two directions.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 9:59:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Very nice, Paul.  Thanks for the write up.  

I try to follow these threads to determine when solar will be cost effective for me.  In NE TN, it's not quite there, due to the lower light capture.  Maybe it will be, within the next 5-10 years.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 10:10:06 AM EDT
[#31]
That looks great.
I have to find some extra energy or find an installer I trust and do this.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:00:39 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:

As I've posted (maybe in another thread), trying to offset full consumption with solar is not really a good idea unless you have excellent net metering (most people don't).  

And biasing an array so that it faces westerly is commonly done to shift the peak solar production to more closely match the peak consumption - something that's especially important when an array is sized to offset the most consumption.  I've done lots of layouts and designs using west facing roof planes.  As long as the roof pitch isn't ridiculously steep, it works.   And with a lot of the new inverters, power optimizers or micro-inverters, it's nothing to have modules facing different directions.  So use south and west facing roof planes.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did a residential project that didn't us at least two directions.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I would love to get into solar to help offset our electrical costs, but we don't have enough southern facing surface and I think we would need too many panels / too big of an installation to make it worthwhile.

As I've posted (maybe in another thread), trying to offset full consumption with solar is not really a good idea unless you have excellent net metering (most people don't).  

And biasing an array so that it faces westerly is commonly done to shift the peak solar production to more closely match the peak consumption - something that's especially important when an array is sized to offset the most consumption.  I've done lots of layouts and designs using west facing roof planes.  As long as the roof pitch isn't ridiculously steep, it works.   And with a lot of the new inverters, power optimizers or micro-inverters, it's nothing to have modules facing different directions.  So use south and west facing roof planes.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did a residential project that didn't us at least two directions.

I guess I should have said "offset some of our electrical costs", but I appreciate the info.

We really don't want to be in this house any longer than we have to (about 12 years), and I'm guessing we could only recoup a portion of our investment in that time.  I suppose I should take a look at our HOA rules first and see if it is expressly forbidden.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:14:26 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:

I guess I should have said "offset some of our electrical costs", but I appreciate the info.

We really don't want to be in this house any longer than we have to (about 12 years), and I'm guessing we could only recoup a portion of our investment in that time.  I suppose I should take a look at our HOA rules first and see if it is expressly forbidden.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would love to get into solar to help offset our electrical costs, but we don't have enough southern facing surface and I think we would need too many panels / too big of an installation to make it worthwhile.

As I've posted (maybe in another thread), trying to offset full consumption with solar is not really a good idea unless you have excellent net metering (most people don't).  

And biasing an array so that it faces westerly is commonly done to shift the peak solar production to more closely match the peak consumption - something that's especially important when an array is sized to offset the most consumption.  I've done lots of layouts and designs using west facing roof planes.  As long as the roof pitch isn't ridiculously steep, it works.   And with a lot of the new inverters, power optimizers or micro-inverters, it's nothing to have modules facing different directions.  So use south and west facing roof planes.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did a residential project that didn't us at least two directions.

I guess I should have said "offset some of our electrical costs", but I appreciate the info.

We really don't want to be in this house any longer than we have to (about 12 years), and I'm guessing we could only recoup a portion of our investment in that time.  I suppose I should take a look at our HOA rules first and see if it is expressly forbidden.

No worries.  Solar isn't for everyone.  Even though I'm in the business, I try to be honest about all the pros and cons.  More than once, I've talked someone out of it.  Yeah, I know, weird...  But if someone installs it then isn't satisfied, it's bad for business.  

Solar does add to resale value, just like anything else that lowers the utility bills...   But installing solar just before you move out would be a lot like installing a pool just before you moved out.  Probably not a good investment.  Of course, we've been "getting ready to move" for about 5 years now.  

NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.

If you've not done everything you can for energy efficiency, go that route first.  Much quicker payback.

Cheers,
B
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:33:56 AM EDT
[#34]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

No worries.  Solar isn't for everyone.  Even though I'm in the business, I try to be honest about all the pros and cons.  More than once, I've talked someone out of it.  Yeah, I know, weird...  But if someone installs it then isn't satisfied, it's bad for business.  

Solar does add to resale value, just like anything else that lowers the utility bills...   But installing solar just before you move out would be a lot like installing a pool just before you moved out.  Probably not a good investment.  Of course, we've been "getting ready to move" for about 5 years now.  

NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.

If you've not done everything you can for energy efficiency, go that route first.  Much quicker payback.

Cheers,
B
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would love to get into solar to help offset our electrical costs, but we don't have enough southern facing surface and I think we would need too many panels / too big of an installation to make it worthwhile.

As I've posted (maybe in another thread), trying to offset full consumption with solar is not really a good idea unless you have excellent net metering (most people don't).  

And biasing an array so that it faces westerly is commonly done to shift the peak solar production to more closely match the peak consumption - something that's especially important when an array is sized to offset the most consumption.  I've done lots of layouts and designs using west facing roof planes.  As long as the roof pitch isn't ridiculously steep, it works.   And with a lot of the new inverters, power optimizers or micro-inverters, it's nothing to have modules facing different directions.  So use south and west facing roof planes.  In fact, I can't remember the last time I did a residential project that didn't us at least two directions.

I guess I should have said "offset some of our electrical costs", but I appreciate the info.

We really don't want to be in this house any longer than we have to (about 12 years), and I'm guessing we could only recoup a portion of our investment in that time.  I suppose I should take a look at our HOA rules first and see if it is expressly forbidden.

No worries.  Solar isn't for everyone.  Even though I'm in the business, I try to be honest about all the pros and cons.  More than once, I've talked someone out of it.  Yeah, I know, weird...  But if someone installs it then isn't satisfied, it's bad for business.  

Solar does add to resale value, just like anything else that lowers the utility bills...   But installing solar just before you move out would be a lot like installing a pool just before you moved out.  Probably not a good investment.  Of course, we've been "getting ready to move" for about 5 years now.  

NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.

If you've not done everything you can for energy efficiency, go that route first.  Much quicker payback.

Cheers,
B

Dog what part of Texas are working in?
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:49:46 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
Dog what part of Texas are working in?
View Quote

I live in Dallas County.  Most of my clients are on the west coast or in central Texas.  When I get bored or need some time in the field to maintain my certification, I pay them a visit.  Otherwise, I crank out drawings from the house.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 1:09:59 PM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.
View Quote
AZ has laws that void HOA restrictions on either solar electric, or hot water.

Rancher
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 1:43:31 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
AZ has laws that void HOA restrictions on either solar electric, or hot water.

Rancher
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Quoted:
Quoted:
NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.
AZ has laws that void HOA restrictions on either solar electric, or hot water.

Rancher

Unfortunately, AHJ's can still inflict conditions on installations, like no arrays facing the street.  So if you've got a huge roof plane facing the street and south, your municipality is giving you the shaft.  That's a problem in Allen, TX.  
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:26:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No worries.  Solar isn't for everyone.  Even though I'm in the business, I try to be honest about all the pros and cons.  More than once, I've talked someone out of it.  Yeah, I know, weird...  But if someone installs it then isn't satisfied, it's bad for business.  

Solar does add to resale value, just like anything else that lowers the utility bills...   But installing solar just before you move out would be a lot like installing a pool just before you moved out.  Probably not a good investment.  Of course, we've been "getting ready to move" for about 5 years now.  

NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.

If you've not done everything you can for energy efficiency, go that route first.  Much quicker payback.

Cheers,
B
View Quote

I just noticed my state has disappeared, but I'm in GA - not NM - and I don't think we're particularly pro-solar.  I don't know that I've seen it anywhere within a 10-20 mile radius of my house.
Link Posted: 9/9/2015 11:28:09 PM EDT
[#39]
Signed the contract on the new house tonight with the 10.8kW Solar System built into the construction loan.
Link Posted: 9/10/2015 12:24:33 AM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I just noticed my state has disappeared, but I'm in GA - not NM - and I don't think we're particularly pro-solar.  I don't know that I've seen it anywhere within a 10-20 mile radius of my house.
View Quote

Not sure why I thought you were in NM...  

Yeah, GA is only about #40 in solar in the USA (per NREL).  No clue why - I've not researched it.  You might find out more here if you're curious.  Link is to SEIA - Solar Energy Industries Association.  Pretty legit data.

Checking PV Watts, irradiation (sunlight energy) in the Atlanta area is about 20% less than here in Dallas.  That's significant.  Not a deal killer, just something to be aware of.
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 1:19:04 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Not sure why I thought you were in NM...  

Yeah, GA is only about #40 in solar in the USA (per NREL).  No clue why - I've not researched it.  You might find out more here if you're curious.  Link is to SEIA - Solar Energy Industries Association.  Pretty legit data.

Checking PV Watts, irradiation (sunlight energy) in the Atlanta area is about 20% less than here in Dallas.  That's significant.  Not a deal killer, just something to be aware of.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I just noticed my state has disappeared, but I'm in GA - not NM - and I don't think we're particularly pro-solar.  I don't know that I've seen it anywhere within a 10-20 mile radius of my house.

Not sure why I thought you were in NM...  

Yeah, GA is only about #40 in solar in the USA (per NREL).  No clue why - I've not researched it.  You might find out more here if you're curious.  Link is to SEIA - Solar Energy Industries Association.  Pretty legit data.

Checking PV Watts, irradiation (sunlight energy) in the Atlanta area is about 20% less than here in Dallas.  That's significant.  Not a deal killer, just something to be aware of.

Interesting link.  Some tidbits from it:


  • There are currently more than 186 solar companies at work throughout the value chain in Georgia, employing 2,900 people.

  • In 2014, Georgia installed 45 MW of solar electric capacity, ranking it 16th nationally.

  • The 204 MW of solar energy currently installed in Georgia ranks the state 15th in the country in installed solar capacity.  There is enough solar energy installed in the state to power 22,000 homes.

  • In 2014, $79 million was invested on solar installations in Georgia.



Link Posted: 9/11/2015 1:59:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just noticed my state has disappeared, but I'm in GA - not NM - and I don't think we're particularly pro-solar.  I don't know that I've seen it anywhere within a 10-20 mile radius of my house.

Not sure why I thought you were in NM...  

Yeah, GA is only about #40 in solar in the USA (per NREL).  No clue why - I've not researched it.  You might find out more here if you're curious.  Link is to SEIA - Solar Energy Industries Association.  Pretty legit data.

Checking PV Watts, irradiation (sunlight energy) in the Atlanta area is about 20% less than here in Dallas.  That's significant.  Not a deal killer, just something to be aware of.

Interesting link.  Some tidbits from it:


  • There are currently more than 186 solar companies at work throughout the value chain in Georgia, employing 2,900 people.

  • In 2014, Georgia installed 45 MW of solar electric capacity, ranking it 16th nationally.

  • The 204 MW of solar energy currently installed in Georgia ranks the state 15th in the country in installed solar capacity.  There is enough solar energy installed in the state to power 22,000 homes.

  • In 2014, $79 million was invested on solar installations in Georgia.



https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpt1/v/t1.0-9/1962679_10152302580041810_624808945_n.png?oh=ae4027a84d4a0b2d21cca1414665f230&oe=566DDAE5

Anyone can make a shit sandwich sound good with enough graphics and such.  ;-)

But I'd trust NREL numbers over SEIA number most days.  
 
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 4:11:42 PM EDT
[#43]
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 4:21:57 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Got my first power bill with solar ... in the middle of a Southern California summer with the AC set at 76/78 ... $3.93.

Some people pay a hundred times that much.
View Quote


It's a nice feeling!

Link Posted: 9/11/2015 4:25:44 PM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Got my first power bill with solar ... in the middle of a Southern California summer with the AC set at 76/78 ... $3.93.

Some people pay a hundred times that much.
View Quote

Or more.  When our upstairs AC was not working right in '11, we had one bill that passed $700.
Link Posted: 9/11/2015 5:49:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 2:59:04 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Unfortunately, AHJ's can still inflict conditions on installations, like no arrays facing the street.  So if you've got a huge roof plane facing the street and south, your municipality is giving you the shaft.  That's a problem in Allen, TX.  
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.
AZ has laws that void HOA restrictions on either solar electric, or hot water.

Rancher

Unfortunately, AHJ's can still inflict conditions on installations, like no arrays facing the street.  So if you've got a huge roof plane facing the street and south, your municipality is giving you the shaft.  That's a problem in Allen, TX.  
Again, NO HOA can restrict solar.

Move if your state cannot outlaw it.

Rancher
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 3:00:29 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Got my first power bill with solar ... in the middle of a Southern California summer with the AC set at 76/78 ... $3.93.

Some people pay a hundred times that much.
View Quote
I pay more than that for the net metering meter.

Rancher
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 4:05:05 PM EDT
[#49]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Again, NO HOA can restrict solar.

Move if your state cannot outlaw it.

Rancher
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
NM is pretty pro-solar.  I suspect that there's a law that limits the ability of the HOA to prohibit solar in an established neighborhood.  Doesn't me they won't be a total PITA to deal with - but they will lose.
AZ has laws that void HOA restrictions on either solar electric, or hot water.

Rancher

Unfortunately, AHJ's can still inflict conditions on installations, like no arrays facing the street.  So if you've got a huge roof plane facing the street and south, your municipality is giving you the shaft.  That's a problem in Allen, TX.  
Again, NO HOA can restrict solar.

Move if your state cannot outlaw it.

Rancher

I wasn't saying an HOA could.  But the Authority Having Jurisdiction, also known as city permitting, can.
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 1:03:28 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:I wasn't saying an HOA could.  But the Authority Having Jurisdiction, also known as city permitting, can.
View Quote
Then your state hasn't embraced solar (TX?) That doesn't surprise me, I lived in Clear Lake City until I could find employment outside of that cesspool.

Rancher
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