remember in shtf, some arfcommers are getting into million round firefights, in conditions that can destroy optics, and picking up rifles that are lying in the street

For me, the merits of a short barreled AR just aren't there. The 5.56's oomph is amplified with velocity. Regardless of bullet type.

If I could afford a couple thousand rounds of an Mk262 clone as my stash, I would definitely considered building a 16 inch mid length.

I think it is unwise to dismiss the 20 inch in today's world. It is just as relevant as ever.

There is absolutely zero reason for a 20" 5.56 IMO.

If there is any itch that a 14.5" 5.56 can't scratch, you need a different caliber.

To each their own though.

I think Eugene would disagree.

But it's all good. Another good SHTF rifle would seem to be an SBR in the Russian short.

He probably wouldnt care

And there is no good reason to use an ar in a russian caliber, unless you already have lots of ammo

I didn't say an AR, I meant AK variant.

Same logic with the 20", why use the wholly inferior option?

And this is the ar tech forum

Because the Russian short does almost the same thing from a 12 inch barrel as a 16. It isn't nearly as velocity dependent.

And it is also inferior to mk318 and mk262, and pretty much every non-fmj load out there.

That is probably accurate.

But it's cheaper than a Daytona Beach hooker.

Why would you trust the cheapest and worst performing option with your life?

Good lord I didn't say that. I don't even own a gun in that caliber. Relax

If your AR is mil spec or better chances are you will run out of ammo before anything breaks.

My plan is to become the leader of a post apocalyptic gang  and just pillage everything.   Everything the opposite of what Rick does on the Walking Dead..  I'm more like Shane.....  I'm going full Shane when shtf

In reality, any kind of SHTF situation, will in-tail endless day to day mundane stuff while carrying a weapon. Like vehicle use, carrying around the homestead location while doing chores, carrying around the house with you(like to the John), etc. A wandering Mad Max thing out in the open desert, prolly isn't in the cards. For such, a long 20" rifle would absolutely be my last choice regarding an AR. Hold that 20" in your lap while sitting in your car..or in the John... Now try and use it in a 360 degree circle . Then try a 10.5" or 11.5". Not even close imo. And the diff is enough to make the diff in being able to use it, or not (or possibly not even have it with you).

Plus, engaging a target out to 400-500 yrds, would be kinda dumb. At that range, I'm going to E&E (escape and evade) and otherwise, not draw attention to myself. And how would one know, thats not uncle Bob, that finally made it to your place after a month of E&E himself. Now you just picked him off, out by your mail box. Ops.

The last thing I want to do in an emergency situation is make myself a target by carrying a conspicuous weapon.

I can get anything I would need using my brain and this (not my pic but you get the idea):




Some of the long term, lawless states of survival you guys dream up are

I think a 45 pistol that you are well trained with would be a better choice when doing chores, takin a shit, Ect. Even easier to handle than a mini-rifle!

I do not understand the 20" crowd. At all.

16" is the longest 556 I want. My 16" with can it's freaking long. I can't imagine a 20" with can.

11.5" is what I'm going with soon.

20 inches with a can would be obnoxious. Why would you do that?

Because reducing your sound signature is a good thing, especially in the elaborate SHTF scenarios people come up with.

22LR

You can tell by the posts who are the TOS members and who are not.  

So much BS has been posted that I'm not going to bother taking the time to specifically cite every little point and will instead just paraphrase.    

"Anything longer than 16 is wasted".

Really?  Lots of people love talking about my "fantasy scenarios" yet I'm realistic enough to know that in a true SHTF scenario, I'm not going to need to worry about maneuvering a rifle around in my vehicle.  Seriously, SHTF, the roads and especially highways are going to be parking lots and impassible.  Your main reason for having a SBR is vehicle maneuvering??  Give me a break.  Also, if there is an EMP or solar flare, have fun with all your battery powered crap.  It doesn't even matter anyway, because over time without new production, batteries will eventually all get used up or go bad.  Lenses get scratched, marred up, etc too.

I also love how everyone is harping on the "weight" issue of a 20" gun.  My 20" gun weighs less than your 14.5" with optics and misc garbage on it, so that's a very ironic point you're making.  Even giving you the benefit of the doubt, and comparing a stock 16" M4 carbine (7 lbs) to a stock 20" A2 (7.5lbs.) there is only half a pound difference between the two.  If you can't handle that half pound difference, you can't handle carrying a rifle in the field period.  Jeez, look how wimpy and effeminate most of today's "men" have become!  Complaining about the weight of a LIGHT AR carbine?  Gee, I wonder how our boys back in the day were able to lug around M14s, M1 Garands, 1903 Springfields, .45-70 Govs, and Springfield muskets back in the day.  REAL battle rifles.  And our MEN back then did miles and miles of walking, much more than today's joke mobile mounted infantry that just cruises around on HUMVEEs.  I guess it's a good thing you weren't around then to tell them that they couldn't do that, they most likely would have laughed in your face for being sissy girly men.

Oh you don't care about barrel length because you have 50,000 rounds of your pet load stowed away at home?  Good for you.  What are you going to do when an angry and starving raider throws a moltov into your house?  Go down with the burning ship like you're the captain of the Titanic?  

"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man". - George S. Patton

Unless you have a compound with a several dozen man militia force, you are most likely going to have to leave your home at some point and be mobile.  You are not going to have your stock piles, you won't be able to take it with you, and you won't be able to resupply at whim.  You will be outdoors in the field.  A 20" rifle is just as handy, if not handier because it points better and has a longer sight radius, than a carbine when outdoors in the field.  Personally I think a 20" A1 style AR handles better than a 16" M4 style.  Both weigh around the same, but the 20" is a lot more nimble and points better.

Since you won't have your custom pet load after a while, you'll be stuck with whatever .223 or 5.56 ammo you're able to scrounge up or by supplied with.  That could be anything from Tula, to 30 year old PMC, to current issue ball ammo.  For all but the newest and most modern bullet types, velocity reigns supreme for 5.56 performance.  

The 20" AR rifle platform, which was THE original 5.56 platform designed by Stoner, IS the most reliable platform and has the least amount of malfunction rate out of all other AR platforms.  This has been borne out and proven in all tests conducted with the AR platform.  20" rifles also have the least amount of recoil, and the least amount of parts wear.  Parts on a 20" rifle rarely if ever need to be replaced, parts last multiples of times longer than they do in a carbine.  In a SHTF scenario, especially one that is long term, do you want a rifle with parts that last much longer or one where they last much shorter and you may have to replace them?

There is a lot more I could say on this issue, but I'll wait for TOS posters to swarm all over this first.  

Have fun gripping your temperature conducting metal handguard when you've forgotten or lost / damaged a glove in the field!  

LMAO

I think Blain summed it up well.

Stoner got it right the first time with the 20 inch barrel. Look up dwell time and chamber pressures.

Also, 5.56 55 grain out of an 11.5 inch barrel is weak as hell.
I believe the velocity is around 2350-2400 FPS. That's around 700 ft lbs of energy. Really? That's just about pistol round status.

Use the rifle cartridge as what is designed for, use in a rifle.

THIS




IS SUPERIOR





TO THIS

You are truly a TY-ranasorus.

Stoner also hated the 5.56, when it was first pushed. So, by this logic, we should all be switching to 7.62x51 AR10 pattern rifles.

Stoner himself also had a hand in the Knights Armament SR-15, which I do believe has a shorter barrel than 20".

never thought i'd long for the old days of 16" ak vs 20" ar for shtf threads.  i blame xbox.

In any SHTF situation I wouldd imagine that ammo is going to dry up at one point or another.  We won't have BH 77gr OTM, Mk318, or an array of.223 loaded with Barnes TSX, Winchester Power Points, or Federal Fusion or Gold Dots...  Just plain ole ball ammo..  Or what ever we find.  Anyway, I wanted to share something with you guys.  

I was deployed to Iraq in 06/07.  We had one of our first engagements.  Team of assassins ambushed a man in his car.  We heard the shot and proceeded to engageb the targets of opportunity.  

First guy was shot with M4/M855 from left to right through rib cage.  He was done quick.  I saw second gunman and shot him as he was running with AK in hand.  I shot him twice before he fell forward..  and got up and ran.  Shot him again and he fell over.  He reached for his AK, so I shot him a few more times..  In all, I'd have to guess I hit him 5-7 times before my partner opened up with a Para-SAW. He died..  but it took a lot of well aimed shots at about a distance of 100 yards.  

Would have the M16A4 been better..  I don't know.  But what I do know, is that in the heat of battle, they can keep going.  

We switched to some Mk262 that the Bn was able to scrounge up and the terminal effects were impressive compared to M855.  Both got the job done, just one is more efficient.  And Marines have fared pretty well I have to say, employing a 20" M16A4.  

Hits count.  No matter the tool.  Either one will work fine.  But for a fighting gun I prefer nothing short of a 14.5".  Everyone has an opinion, don't mean it's wrong because you may not agree with one or the other.

Blain, by your "logic" should we  then just start out with smooth bore muskets? Rifling will wear out over time and your 20" A2 will basically be a musket anyway.

Why start out behind the curve? Sure A2s were great. But an ACOG is better. A T1 or EXPS is better.

If you want more. Why not carry a 16" 308? Why carry a hugely long 556?

Also. Yes a can on a 20" is ridiculous. But I like shooting suppressed. I rarely shoot without a can.

Stoner not liking the 5.56 has nothing to do with the fact that it works the best in this platform. Both mechanically and terminally on all targets.

Yes, shot placement is quite important. Adrenaline and drugs can work against the soldiers. But even if the full sized rifle offered no other benefit (which it doesn't) than a psychological boost of confidence to the shooter because of the proven reliability and lethality, it would be worth it for some people.

This argument is asinine. There is zero wrong with a 20 inch barrel for SHTF, combat, or anything else. It is superior in all aspects except length and weight, with the extra weight being subjective to the user and often avoidable completely.

If there was nothing wrong with it, the majority of our military would still be using it. They are not.

14.5" and 10.3" have proven themselves over the past decade.

But I get it. You go with what you are comfortable with. You may have used a 20" for the past 30 years and can't get comfortable enough with technology and technological  advances.

20" ARs are more suitable west of the Mississippi (generally, except for Louisiana) where longer ranges prevail, except in urban areas and the far west coast were the veg is denser and ranges are shorter.

These lessons were learned in Afghanistan with short barreled rifles.

Haha, wow. 30 years....no.

And I wouldn't use what the military did/does as proof for jack.

They still use CLP and M855.

Not everywhere. The serious shortcomings of these barrel lengths, and subsequent loss in performance where proven in Afghanistan.

So then what is your basis for loving the 20" A2?

If not nostalgia, I can think of a reason.

Perhaps you should look into a SR15. Stoners best AR. soft shooting. Super long lasting. Amazing fucking rifle

I agree, alll the video game nerds getting into firearms push these goofy weapons fetishes.  

As Permanentcavitywound aptly points out, ammo supply will be quite limited over a long term SHTF scenario.  Short barreled ARs are vastly less terminally effective with all but the most modern bullet designs than a 20".  The complaints about "stopping power" were almost non existent until the wide spread adoption of the M4.  As to "well the military does it so it's the best", what the military chooses is hardly ever related to "what is best", and more realistically related to political and logistics reasons.  





I see you've addressed absolutely none of my valid points and instead bring up some straw man argument out of left field!  Who said anything about going back to a musket?

We are talking about two almost identical weapons system.  One just with a longer barrel, different sights and furniture.  

A 20" rifle is only "hugely long" to video game heads who have no experience with real rifles in general.  The original 20" AR was created as, and considered, a light handy carbine!  And you think it's ungainly?  Have you ever handled or fired a bolt action .30-06 or any normal sporting rifle?  

As I've said before, a 20" lightweight AR handles better than a carbine bogged down with equipment.  

A KISS iron sighted 20" rifle will be more durable and last longer through hard use and abuse than a tricked out 14.5" M4 platform with, BUIS, rails, and electronics bolted on it.  This is a fact!  

Maybe an M4. it will not outlast a SR15E3.

I do think the 20" is too long. I started out my shooting days with the M1A. So yes, I have some means of comparison.

As you have never addressed it, what is the SHTF you think will happen? Life long ? A year? 5 months?

I don't think if SHTF I'd be worried about 400yard engagements.

Also, I know this blows your mind, but I shoot suppressed. So....20" plus can is absurd. 11.5" with can is perfect.

A t1 can last on a single battery for 5-7 years constantly on. Grab a few spare and you are set for life.

I bring up smooth bore muskets because you seem to think all technological advances will fail. So I'm saying you should plan for your rifling to fail as well. And just start out with a smooth bore.

Oh a KAC fanboy on top of it all?  That just completes the picture!  

Which video games do you play?

First of all, as I already stated, the 20" AR is the most reliable and durable AR as proven by actually real world tests, military and others.  

Second of all, the SR15 wasn't even designed by Stoner.  He had a hand in the SR25, but that's it.  The SR15 came out ~ 10 years after his death.  I still remember in 2000 Knights was selling plain jane M4 clones!

The SR15 had so many bugs that its had to be tweaked multiple times since it was first released.  Why does the "best AR" need tweeking?  I'm not talking about furniture or cosmetic changes, I meant gas system changes because it wasn't cycling certain commercial ammo that bare bone stock ARs were cycling easily.

Well, now that I know what you're deal is, and you literally bring nothing to the table, nor do you address any of my logical points, I will quite engaging you as it is a waste of my time.  

Good luck in COD!!

While this thread is focused on the AR as "the" SHTF" rifle the real point is what rifle/cartridge combination best fits your AOPS.

A bolt-action rifle in a cartridge that fits your AOPS may be the best SHTF firearm since it all depends on how you plan on sustaining yourself in your AOPS

If you plan on going head-to-head with opponents then go with a semi-auto, but if you plan on SERE then something a bit more versatile and sustainable may be more appropriate.

I have both ARs (14.5-20") and bolt-actions. They both have their place.

My .02

I agree, though I'd add the caveat that you choose a commonly available caliber as post SHTF, even issue caliber ammo will be scarce enough.  There are lots of calibers I love, 30 carbine, 5.45x39, etc.  However, I wouldn't consider any of those guns a main caliber SHTF weapon as if I had to bug out from my AO, you'd have a fat change finding ammo (nevermind mags) for that platform.

What do you do when you have to shoot someone at night for the few years before the batteries all die?

Doesn't happen in his SHTF. Ideal conditions only.

I have not said one thing regarding the A2.

I am merely referring to the 20 inch barrel and rifle gas system. A SHTF rifle should be equipped with some sort of optic, BUIS, and other modern accessories that give you an edge. A collapsible stock on a 20 inch is a great option. 20 inch does not equal A2. Although I do have an A4 I am fond of, though that set up wouldn't be ideal for SHTF.

And for sure, I like the sound of the SR-15, but I wanted to build my own, and their proprietary bolt made me somewhat hesitant.
If I were to buy a complete rifle, that might be it.

Buy a used barrel / bolt from EE. That's what I did. Built it up otherwise exactly how I wanted it.

Sorry, you didn't say A2. Blain did.

I have a 20" A2 and it hasn't been fired since 2010 it was my first AR.

Do any of the SR15 barrels come in 20 inches?

18" on the LPR. Super crazy barrel. Ive never had tighter groups with any AR

You aren't going to find random piles of 5.56 laying about, if you do not have any supplies when shtf, you will never have any.

if you are buying ammo that you may need to stake your life on, buy the better option, not some 55gr wallyworld range fodder

this thread would be 20x better in GD

Blain lives in 1980, when the Armson OEG and Maglites were the only options. The fact that he's throwing out "video game kiddies" at people who are using technology that's getting close to 20 years old and has proven itself in combat several times over is enough to show he doesn't know what he's talking about.

Meanwhile, there are M4 and M16A4s(One of which I carried. And it sucked) equipped with Aimpoints, ACOGS, Eotechs, Surefires, PEQ-2As and PEQ-15s that have survived years of deployments, where they get shot and beat up more than any rifle owned by a civilian will. (In a SHTF scenario that could actually happen, instead of zombies or Chinese invasion, or something.)