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Posted: 7/5/2015 9:52:45 AM EDT
[#1]
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Frag range when comparing barrel lengths shouldn't mean much of anything for a civilian. You're not limited to ball ammo...and have plenty of good choices for rounds that are far more effective against 2 legged critters than M193 or M855. Hornady TAP and Federal TBBC to start. They're both going to perform better from a wider range of barrel lengths (terminally) than ball ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Exactly. I don't think anyone disagrees regarding the terminal ballistics of 16" vs 20". The point it seems most are trying to make is that I want every advantage I can get, even if it's temporary. In my mind I don't intend to fight "fair" if I ever have to defend my family. I will utilize darkness to my advantage as much as possible, and I think that is what the OP should be considering more than how long the barrel is. Choose a setup that works for your expected engagement range, train with your gear. Figure out what works and what doesn't, what needs to be locktited down, etc. The training with said equipment is more important than terminal velocity considerations. Not to mention if you plan on having to engage out to 300M, no one can positively ID their target without some glass unless they are shooting first. You want an edge and any advantage you can get. With a suppressor, a DBAL, and a helmet mounted NOD, there is no way a bare bones 20" will win that fight at night unless you have just bought the gear to look cool and never send rounds down range with it. Rifle weight is another thing that I personally don't give a crap about. If I train with it and am capable of handling the weight for extended periods, that's all that matters. If I'm a couch potato window licker who doesn't train then I can see weapon weight becoming an issue. I truly don't get the argument against tech on rifles. There is a reason all this gear is deployed as we speak. Anything can break. If that ole 20" shears a cam pin and you aren't carrying another, your rifle has just become a heavy walking stick. I think most of us don't want the OP worrying about things such as ballistics when there are much more important things to think through as options that would be huge force multipliers. Frag range when comparing barrel lengths shouldn't mean much of anything for a civilian. You're not limited to ball ammo...and have plenty of good choices for rounds that are far more effective against 2 legged critters than M193 or M855. Hornady TAP and Federal TBBC to start. They're both going to perform better from a wider range of barrel lengths (terminally) than ball ammo. I suggest you actually read the rest of the thread as to why many of us CITIZENS are concerned about frag range. It's been addressed several times before in this thread. |
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Posted: 7/5/2015 6:00:18 PM EDT
[#2]
If you're so concerned about terminal ballistics, why not step up to a full sized rifle cartridge?
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Posted: 7/5/2015 8:36:17 PM EDT
[#3]
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I suggest you actually read the rest of the thread as to why many of us CITIZENS are concerned about frag range. It's been addressed several times before in this thread. Still no answer to my questions.... |
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Posted: 7/5/2015 11:32:43 PM EDT
[#4]
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THIS http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/C7_rifle.JPG IS SUPERIOR http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e106/Captains1911/paper%20punchers/DSC00818.jpg TO THIS Can I say "full retard" in a tech forum? |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:45:49 AM EDT
[#5]
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M193 is pretty mean stuff. I am not sure how it compares to Tap but given its reliable fragmentation under 200 yards I feel good about it. Hell, if I am not mistaken you have to step up to level III+ armor just to defeat it. Probably not great for small game however if you want to eat it afterwords, but that's why God made the .22 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Frag range when comparing barrel lengths shouldn't mean much of anything for a civilian. You're not limited to ball ammo...and have plenty of good choices for rounds that are far more effective against 2 legged critters than M193 or M855. Hornady TAP and Federal TBBC to start. They're both going to perform better from a wider range of barrel lengths (terminally) than ball ammo. M193 is pretty mean stuff. I am not sure how it compares to Tap but given its reliable fragmentation under 200 yards I feel good about it. Hell, if I am not mistaken you have to step up to level III+ armor just to defeat it. Probably not great for small game however if you want to eat it afterwords, but that's why God made the .22 I'm not saying M193 is a bad round, but there are better options for reliable expansion that are nowhere near as dependent on MV. Especially for unarmored 2 legged people. No need to handicap yourself with ball ammo if you're not required to use it. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 9:49:04 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I suggest you actually read the rest of the thread as to why many of us CITIZENS are concerned about frag range. It's been addressed several times before in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Exactly. I don't think anyone disagrees regarding the terminal ballistics of 16" vs 20". The point it seems most are trying to make is that I want every advantage I can get, even if it's temporary. In my mind I don't intend to fight "fair" if I ever have to defend my family. I will utilize darkness to my advantage as much as possible, and I think that is what the OP should be considering more than how long the barrel is. Choose a setup that works for your expected engagement range, train with your gear. Figure out what works and what doesn't, what needs to be locktited down, etc. The training with said equipment is more important than terminal velocity considerations. Not to mention if you plan on having to engage out to 300M, no one can positively ID their target without some glass unless they are shooting first. You want an edge and any advantage you can get. With a suppressor, a DBAL, and a helmet mounted NOD, there is no way a bare bones 20" will win that fight at night unless you have just bought the gear to look cool and never send rounds down range with it. Rifle weight is another thing that I personally don't give a crap about. If I train with it and am capable of handling the weight for extended periods, that's all that matters. If I'm a couch potato window licker who doesn't train then I can see weapon weight becoming an issue. I truly don't get the argument against tech on rifles. There is a reason all this gear is deployed as we speak. Anything can break. If that ole 20" shears a cam pin and you aren't carrying another, your rifle has just become a heavy walking stick. I think most of us don't want the OP worrying about things such as ballistics when there are much more important things to think through as options that would be huge force multipliers. Frag range when comparing barrel lengths shouldn't mean much of anything for a civilian. You're not limited to ball ammo...and have plenty of good choices for rounds that are far more effective against 2 legged critters than M193 or M855. Hornady TAP and Federal TBBC to start. They're both going to perform better from a wider range of barrel lengths (terminally) than ball ammo. I suggest you actually read the rest of the thread as to why many of us CITIZENS are concerned about frag range. It's been addressed several times before in this thread. Sorry...not reading through 15 pages to find some obscure reference you made, just to answer your passive aggressive post. If you want to be condescending the GD is that way.  And I really couldn't care less how much you like 20" AR's. Never said the merit isn't there, but with expanding ammunition the option is opened up for several other barrel lengths while still getting excellent terminal ballistics. You just can't seem to get over that fact to the point you take it personal when someone recommends anything but a big old A2 musket.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 10:33:20 AM EDT
[#7]
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Sorry...not reading through 15 pages to find some obscure reference you made, just to answer your passive aggressive post. If you want to be condescending the GD is that way. And I really couldn't care less how much you like 20" AR's. Never said the merit isn't there, but with expanding ammunition the option is opened up for several other barrel lengths while still getting excellent terminal ballistics. You just can't seem to get over that fact to the point you take it personal when someone recommends anything but a big old A2 musket.
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Exactly. I don't think anyone disagrees regarding the terminal ballistics of 16" vs 20". The point it seems most are trying to make is that I want every advantage I can get, even if it's temporary. In my mind I don't intend to fight "fair" if I ever have to defend my family. I will utilize darkness to my advantage as much as possible, and I think that is what the OP should be considering more than how long the barrel is. Choose a setup that works for your expected engagement range, train with your gear. Figure out what works and what doesn't, what needs to be locktited down, etc. The training with said equipment is more important than terminal velocity considerations. Not to mention if you plan on having to engage out to 300M, no one can positively ID their target without some glass unless they are shooting first. You want an edge and any advantage you can get. With a suppressor, a DBAL, and a helmet mounted NOD, there is no way a bare bones 20" will win that fight at night unless you have just bought the gear to look cool and never send rounds down range with it. Rifle weight is another thing that I personally don't give a crap about. If I train with it and am capable of handling the weight for extended periods, that's all that matters. If I'm a couch potato window licker who doesn't train then I can see weapon weight becoming an issue. I truly don't get the argument against tech on rifles. There is a reason all this gear is deployed as we speak. Anything can break. If that ole 20" shears a cam pin and you aren't carrying another, your rifle has just become a heavy walking stick. I think most of us don't want the OP worrying about things such as ballistics when there are much more important things to think through as options that would be huge force multipliers. Frag range when comparing barrel lengths shouldn't mean much of anything for a civilian. You're not limited to ball ammo...and have plenty of good choices for rounds that are far more effective against 2 legged critters than M193 or M855. Hornady TAP and Federal TBBC to start. They're both going to perform better from a wider range of barrel lengths (terminally) than ball ammo. I suggest you actually read the rest of the thread as to why many of us CITIZENS are concerned about frag range. It's been addressed several times before in this thread. Sorry...not reading through 15 pages to find some obscure reference you made, just to answer your passive aggressive post. If you want to be condescending the GD is that way. And I really couldn't care less how much you like 20" AR's. Never said the merit isn't there, but with expanding ammunition the option is opened up for several other barrel lengths while still getting excellent terminal ballistics. You just can't seem to get over that fact to the point you take it personal when someone recommends anything but a big old A2 musket.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 12:10:07 PM EDT
[#8]
This thread made me a lot more comfortable with both ball ammo and short barrel AR's. Of course this is for my expected urban engagement ranges, not some fantasy of sniping UN convoys from 800 yards while yelling wolverines.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_9/680760_Killing_Hogs_with_the_223_556__Revisited_.html |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 12:57:39 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This thread made me a lot more comfortable with both ball ammo and short barrel AR's. Of course this is for my expected urban engagement ranges, not some fantasy of sniping UN convoys from 800 yards while yelling wolverines. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_9/680760_Killing_Hogs_with_the_223_556__Revisited_.html It's obvious those were killed with an iron sighted 20" rifle, and then the video game guns were shown for the cool factor. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 2:00:58 PM EDT
[#10]
That's part of the beauty of this platform. Endless possibilities and configurations for whatever the user wants or deems necessary.
Everyone getting their panties in a wad about which configuration other people choose to utilize is juvenile and unnecessary. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 3:31:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Don't forget to fix bayonets!
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:10:55 PM EDT
[#12]
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That's part of the beauty of this platform. Endless possibilities and configurations for whatever the user wants or deems necessary. Everyone getting their panties in a wad about which configuration other people choose to utilize is juvenile and unnecessary. But -but -isn't this a great forum to demonstrate to all how juvenile and petty we actually are? When we aren't social mediaing with our latest gizmo -taking selfies and contemplating how wonderful we are? |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:31:39 PM EDT
[#13]
I don't know why anyone would want one of those short 20" barreled A2 configurations. 26" is the shortest you should ever consider going in a survival situation. You might need to fashion a makeshift tent pole and you wouldn't want to rely on those collapsible poles like the tents in the video games.
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:32:34 PM EDT
[#14]
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But -but -isn't this a great forum to demonstrate to all how juvenile and petty we actually are? When we aren't social mediaing with our latest gizmo -taking selfies and contemplating how wonderful we are? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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That's part of the beauty of this platform. Endless possibilities and configurations for whatever the user wants or deems necessary. Everyone getting their panties in a wad about which configuration other people choose to utilize is juvenile and unnecessary. But -but -isn't this a great forum to demonstrate to all how juvenile and petty we actually are? When we aren't social mediaing with our latest gizmo -taking selfies and contemplating how wonderful we are? Yes. 
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Posted: 7/6/2015 4:50:37 PM EDT
[#15]
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In re: Magpul MIAD®/MOE® Bolt & Firing Pin Storage Core Cheaper here: ($10.95 vs. $14.95 MSRP) I just picked up one each in FDE and ODG for my Colts. http://www.evike.com/products/46442/ http://www.evike.com/products/45311/ Now to find a couple of spare bolts.. I am admittedly a AR newbie. Although it is highly unlikely you would ever need either, why is having a spare bolt and firing pin onboard (in the Magpul grip) a bad or funny/LOL idea for a long term SHTF situation? Thanks for any info. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 5:34:48 PM EDT
[#16]
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I am admittedly a AR newbie. Although it is highly unlikely you would ever need either, why is having a spare bolt and firing pin onboard (in the Magpul grip) a bad or funny/LOL idea for a long term SHTF situation? Thanks for any info. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In re: Magpul MIAD®/MOE® Bolt & Firing Pin Storage Core Cheaper here: ($10.95 vs. $14.95 MSRP) I just picked up one each in FDE and ODG for my Colts. http://www.evike.com/products/46442/ http://www.evike.com/products/45311/ Now to find a couple of spare bolts.. I am admittedly a AR newbie. Although it is highly unlikely you would ever need either, why is having a spare bolt and firing pin onboard (in the Magpul grip) a bad or funny/LOL idea for a long term SHTF situation? Thanks for any info. I will assume the bolded text is what they find funny/LOL. Evike is an airsoft web merchant. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:08:59 PM EDT
[#17]
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This thread made me a lot more comfortable with both ball ammo and short barrel AR's. Of course this is for my expected urban engagement ranges, not some fantasy of sniping UN convoys from 800 yards while yelling wolverines. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_9/680760_Killing_Hogs_with_the_223_556__Revisited_.html Lies. It's also a myth that 10" and 15" ARs loaded with M193 killed people in vietnam, and 14.5" and 10.3" ARs loaded with M855 killed people in Iraq and Afghanistan. Arfcom is full of people living fantasies, rather than doing real shooting. |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:17:50 PM EDT
[#18]
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I don't know why anyone would want one of those short 20" barreled A2 configurations. 26" is the shortest you should ever consider going in a survival situation. You might need to fashion a makeshift tent pole and you wouldn't want to rely on those collapsible poles like the tents in the video games. http://i61.tinypic.com/33f8a5k.jpg No, those suck because you cant mount a bayonet! |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:19:08 PM EDT
[#19]
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I will assume the bolded text is what they find funny/LOL. Evike is an airsoft web merchant. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In re: Magpul MIAD®/MOE® Bolt & Firing Pin Storage Core Cheaper here: ($10.95 vs. $14.95 MSRP) I just picked up one each in FDE and ODG for my Colts. http://www.evike.com/products/46442/ http://www.evike.com/products/45311/ Now to find a couple of spare bolts.. I am admittedly a AR newbie. Although it is highly unlikely you would ever need either, why is having a spare bolt and firing pin onboard (in the Magpul grip) a bad or funny/LOL idea for a long term SHTF situation? Thanks for any info. I will assume the bolded text is what they find funny/LOL. Evike is an airsoft web merchant. It has nothing to do with this thread |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:27:10 PM EDT
[#20]
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No, those suck because you cant mount a bayonet! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know why anyone would want one of those short 20" barreled A2 configurations. 26" is the shortest you should ever consider going in a survival situation. You might need to fashion a makeshift tent pole and you wouldn't want to rely on those collapsible poles like the tents in the video games. http://i61.tinypic.com/33f8a5k.jpg No, those suck because you cant mount a bayonet! Screw mounting a bayonet, I want to mount an NCO sword! |
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Posted: 7/6/2015 8:33:42 PM EDT
[#21]
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Screw mounting a bayonet, I want to mount an NCO sword! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know why anyone would want one of those short 20" barreled A2 configurations. 26" is the shortest you should ever consider going in a survival situation. You might need to fashion a makeshift tent pole and you wouldn't want to rely on those collapsible poles like the tents in the video games. http://i61.tinypic.com/33f8a5k.jpg No, those suck because you cant mount a bayonet! Screw mounting a bayonet, I want to mount an NCO sword! Don't be a pussy, go for the chainsaw. 
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Posted: 7/7/2015 9:26:35 AM EDT
[#22]
Okay, I'll play. I wanted a reliable 5.56 AR for the reasons already stated (plethora of parts/accessories, proven track record, lightweight/effective cartridge, etc).
My 'go-to' AR is set up to provide the capabilities I want within the budget I can afford (no suppressor or NODS yet  ):
Colt 6920 lower w/Magpul STR buttstock (2 AA & 2 CR123 batteries), K2 grip (1/2oz bottle of lube, 6 spare batteries for MFT), MS1 sling. BCM LW 16" upper w/MOE hand guard & VFG, Meprolight RDS, MBUS rear sight, MFT Torch (nav light), Inforce WMLx light. Weight (from my digital scale) as pictured below is 8lb 9oz unloaded, 9lb 10oz w/a Lancer mag loaded w/77gr OTM. I've run this particular rifle to 1,600rds w/o cleaning w/only some lube added at 700rds, I believe having extra lube available on the rifle is more important than spare parts (spare parts are stored elsewhere). Yes, I could make it lighter if I wanted to spend more money for a non-storage minimalist buttstock, lighter optic, etc, but at this weight it's reliable, manageable and affordable for me (YMMV). Tomac 
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Posted: 7/7/2015 12:43:34 PM EDT
[#23]
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Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed. 
RW3 Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 12:48:35 PM EDT
[#24]
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3 Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? Is this a quote fail? Finicky AR? Right. |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 1:05:30 PM EDT
[#25]
Can we use simunitions, go out at 0200, and pit someone with a MK18 setup and NODS vs iron sights and an angle flashlight
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Posted: 7/7/2015 1:08:12 PM EDT
[#26]
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Can we use simunitions, go out at 0200, and pit someone with a MK18 setup and NODS vs iron sights and an angle flashlight I call mk18! Blain. You in? |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 2:02:21 PM EDT
[#27]
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I call mk18! Blain. You in? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Can we use simunitions, go out at 0200, and pit someone with a MK18 setup and NODS vs iron sights and an angle flashlight I call mk18! Blain. You in? I was thinking the same thing. Middle of the night, start at 300y and have them work their way closer (if needed), 10.3" with optic/light/NODs vs. a 20" bare bones AR with bayonet (or AK or SKS). |
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Posted: 7/7/2015 2:13:17 PM EDT
[#28]
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3 Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? Because he plans on picking up rifles that are just laying around? 
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Posted: 7/7/2015 2:38:34 PM EDT
[#29]
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Because he plans on picking up rifles that are just laying around? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3 Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? Because he plans on picking up rifles that are just laying around? Because it'll be nothing but a major force on force engagement for the entirety of SHTF |
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Posted: 7/8/2015 2:18:31 AM EDT
[#30]
77 TMK fragmenting out of a 10.5?
Un-Possible Are we done here? Can we go back to non GD fuckery now? |
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Posted: 7/11/2015 9:21:44 PM EDT
[#31]
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In my awesome SHTFantasy, I am the reluctant hero that cooks great survival food from stored preps and protects it all with an iron sight , DPMS M-4gery. This.. I want to be the guy in the neighborhood that invites all of the senior citizens etc. into my home and keeps them alive with my stored water and food for as long as possible. NOT the guy who is focused on shooting other Americans from 100+ yards away because they might be walking toward my bug out compound. Yeah I have 2 ARs, 4 12 gauges, 1 pistol, and several thousand rounds of ammo. But equally or more important in the short term is that I also have food and water for 6 months and about 5,000 in cash in case the banks seize up on some Friday due to hack or what not. I think a weather event and/or economic 'crash' are more likely than a terrorist attack, followed down the probably list by a terror attack on a major city or two, followed by some plague outbreak and then foreign invasion.. Self/family defense is a consideration, but we should spend an equal amount of quality "thought time" (and money) preparing for how best we might be able to to save lives in our neighborhoods in a SHTF scenario. |
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Posted: 7/12/2015 8:00:32 AM EDT
[#32]
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This.. I want to be the guy in the neighborhood that invites all of the senior citizens etc. into my home and keeps them alive with my stored water and food for as long as possible. NOT the guy who is focused on shooting other Americans from 100+ yards away because they might be walking toward my bug out compound. Yeah I have 2 ARs, 4 12 gauges, 1 pistol, and several thousand rounds of ammo. But equally or more important in the short term is that I also have food and water for 6 months and about 5,000 in cash in case the banks seize up on some Friday due to hack or what not. I think a weather event and/or economic 'crash' are more likely than a terrorist attack, followed down the probably list by a terror attack on a major city or two, followed by some plague outbreak and then foreign invasion.. Self/family defense is a consideration, but we should spend an equal amount of quality "thought time" (and money) preparing for how best we might be able to to save lives in our neighborhoods in a SHTF scenario. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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In my awesome SHTFantasy, I am the reluctant hero that cooks great survival food from stored preps and protects it all with an iron sight , DPMS M-4gery. This.. I want to be the guy in the neighborhood that invites all of the senior citizens etc. into my home and keeps them alive with my stored water and food for as long as possible. NOT the guy who is focused on shooting other Americans from 100+ yards away because they might be walking toward my bug out compound. Yeah I have 2 ARs, 4 12 gauges, 1 pistol, and several thousand rounds of ammo. But equally or more important in the short term is that I also have food and water for 6 months and about 5,000 in cash in case the banks seize up on some Friday due to hack or what not. I think a weather event and/or economic 'crash' are more likely than a terrorist attack, followed down the probably list by a terror attack on a major city or two, followed by some plague outbreak and then foreign invasion.. Self/family defense is a consideration, but we should spend an equal amount of quality "thought time" (and money) preparing for how best we might be able to to save lives in our neighborhoods in a SHTF scenario. LMAO! Good one! Oh boy! Which new survival fiction story is this? I guess I missed some great new info out there. Evidently now you can be the "savior of the subdivision" AND the savior of the old people at the same time! Double SHTF Merit Badges for that I guess! LOL |
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Posted: 7/12/2015 10:18:59 PM EDT
[#33]
I used to be a 7.62 nato m14 type fella (still am)
But in the last few years got back into milled ak's just for collecting and fun to shoot. Well my shtf rifle choice has changed. Never been a big 5.56 fan, I prefer the .22 Hornet for varmint hunting. If I Need to shoot Something, I want Power. Power that the 5.56 does not have. My Type 3 AK's and mags are, well, Robust... Plenty accurate for my needs, and I have ammo that is known for its very fast yawl cycle. Everyone needs to figure whats best for them personally. You can fallow the herd, or listen to the hive, or whatever... I am fond of thinking for myself based on my needs and experience. Good Luck everyone |
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Posted: 7/12/2015 10:38:58 PM EDT
[#34]
I have been doing this over 30 yrs .. what he said. . brands are different doesn't matter. his concept is EXACTLY what I have 3 sbr lowers and 7-8 uppers.
4 moa is good enuff.. the chest cavity is about 16-19" wide on a normal mansized body.. a lot of people have said this but its a stone cold fact.. u don't need to kill him just make him stop doing what pissed u off in the 1st place. texan |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 6:59:50 PM EDT
[#35]
LMAO! Good one!
Oh boy! Which new survival fiction story is this? I guess I missed some great new info out there. Evidently now you can be the "savior of the subdivision" AND the savior of the old people at the same time! Double SHTF Merit Badges for that I guess! LOL _______________ I'm glad you got a laugh out of my post. I would be interested to hear your "survival scenario" ? And how you have prepared for it. My scenario is the story about power going out and the banking system going down, and no food or water available for 3-6 months or so. I'd say that's somewhat likely actually, not some "survival fiction story". No, I wouldn't be a savior, we already have one. I can take care of myself and others, but I depend on Him. I would encourage you to prepare for your eternity, regardless of the next few years here on earth. Forever and ever is a very long time. What are YOU preparing for, and how? |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 9:34:49 PM EDT
[#36]
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LMAO! Good one! Oh boy! Which new survival fiction story is this? I guess I missed some great new info out there. Evidently now you can be the "savior of the subdivision" AND the savior of the old people at the same time! Double SHTF Merit Badges for that I guess! LOL _______________ I'm glad you got a laugh out of my post. I would be interested to hear your "survival scenario" ? And how you have prepared for it. My scenario is the story about power going out and the banking system going down, and no food or water available for 3-6 months or so. I'd say that's somewhat likely actually, not some "survival fiction story". No, I wouldn't be a savior, we already have one. I can take care of myself and others, but I depend on Him. I would encourage you to prepare for your eternity, regardless of the next few years here on earth. Forever and ever is a very long time. What are YOU preparing for, and how? What you just wrote is straight out of a survival fiction novel. You think 6 months of no food or power in this country won't look like hell on earth? You can rely on prayer, I'll stick with my rifle. |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 11:00:04 PM EDT
[#37]
'What you just wrote is straight out of a survival fiction novel....You can rely on prayer, I'll stick with my rifle.'
_____ Well, I haven't read any "survival fiction novels", so I leave that to you. I am curious though, to understand what SHTF scenario others believe could happen, especially under the circumstances that they "rely [only] on their rifle." That sounds so manly and independent at first. Booyeah. But I think it is short sighted, and frankly, just sounds like a cop out because you don't want to think any deeper or further on the subject. But that's fine. Every man should determine how to live his life or prepare protection for himself and his family for any possible major event. I think you may need more than "sticking with your rifle" after month 1 or 2. Unless you plan on shooting people because they have food and water and you don't? I believe that whether it is a significant weather event, an asteroid, a financial collapse, a terrorist attack, or whatever, something could and probably WILL occur before too long. i believe the Bible teaches that there is coming a time when this 'hell on earth' will be led by a one world, fascist anti-christ system, where no one will be able to buy or sell without some individual mercantile approval referred to as "the mark of the beast". You don't have to believe that biblical 'world view' - it's your life and your eternity. And yes, if I am still here, I will rely on prayer, wisdom, experience, mad/supernatural skills :), stored food and water, AND my shotguns and my rifles as needed. But although I think we have been given a general picture, nobody knows the exact details that would provide us with the best information on how best to prepare. So everybody 'preps' a little differently. And to each his own. Prepare wisely according to your own beliefs. Or not. Good luck. |
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Posted: 7/13/2015 11:14:05 PM EDT
[#38]
I thought this thread couldn't get any derpy
I was wrong
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Posted: 7/13/2015 11:14:46 PM EDT
[#39]
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I used to be a 7.62 nato m14 type fella (still am) But in the last few years got back into milled ak's just for collecting and fun to shoot. Well my shtf rifle choice has changed. Never been a big 5.56 fan, I prefer the .22 Hornet for varmint hunting. If I Need to shoot Something, I want Power. Power that the 5.56 does not have. My Type 3 AK's and mags are, well, Robust... Plenty accurate for my needs, and I have ammo that is known for its very fast yawl cycle. Everyone needs to figure whats best for them personally. You can fallow the herd, or listen to the hive, or whatever... I am fond of thinking for myself based on my needs and experience. Good Luck everyone 5.56 has better terminal performance than 7.62x39 |
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Posted: 7/14/2015 6:17:42 AM EDT
[#40]
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5.56 has better terminal performance than 7.62x39 Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I used to be a 7.62 nato m14 type fella (still am) But in the last few years got back into milled ak's just for collecting and fun to shoot. Well my shtf rifle choice has changed. Never been a big 5.56 fan, I prefer the .22 Hornet for varmint hunting. If I Need to shoot Something, I want Power. Power that the 5.56 does not have. My Type 3 AK's and mags are, well, Robust... Plenty accurate for my needs, and I have ammo that is known for its very fast yawl cycle. Everyone needs to figure whats best for them personally. You can fallow the herd, or listen to the hive, or whatever... I am fond of thinking for myself based on my needs and experience. Good Luck everyone 5.56 has better terminal performance than 7.62x39 556 to your abdomen or x39 Ya think it'll matter in a "shtf" scenario? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/14/2015 11:59:50 AM EDT
[#41]
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You'd last, what, a few days? Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3 You'd last, what, a few days? Haters gonna hate 
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Posted: 7/14/2015 12:02:33 PM EDT
[#42]
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That's an interesting strategy you've got there bud
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3
Well we all can't be AR-15 commandos!!! I like to be different. 
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Posted: 7/14/2015 12:34:47 PM EDT
[#43]
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Because it'll be nothing but a major force on force engagement for the entirety of SHTF Quote HistoryQuoted:
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SKS for the entire family and a few friends. 762x39 works for us. Just introduced a WASR-10 to the fold. (Also 762x39) I will pick up the AR-15's from the ground as needed.
RW3 Why would he only last a few days? Because he is not using some finicky $1000 rifle (AR-15). You'd last, what, a few days? Because he plans on picking up rifles that are just laying around? Because it'll be nothing but a major force on force engagement for the entirety of SHTF 1) No it would not be "major force on force engagement for the entirety of SHTF". Anybody who thinks that will have reality slap them upside their heads. Think boredum, hunger, thirst, anger, arguing mixed in with terrifying moments and you have yourself a SHTF party! 2) Sooo if you had to defend what was yours and you ended up eliminating the threat, either through scaring them off or ventilating them, you are all telling me that you guys/gals would not collect and go through what was left by the threat you stopped? THAT is what I meant about "picking up the AR-15's from the ground as needed". I have more than enough firearms to take care of my family and myself. Carry on. 
RW3 |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 3:02:21 AM EDT
[#44]
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556 to your abdomen or x39 Ya think it'll matter in a "shtf" scenario? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I used to be a 7.62 nato m14 type fella (still am) But in the last few years got back into milled ak's just for collecting and fun to shoot. Well my shtf rifle choice has changed. Never been a big 5.56 fan, I prefer the .22 Hornet for varmint hunting. If I Need to shoot Something, I want Power. Power that the 5.56 does not have. My Type 3 AK's and mags are, well, Robust... Plenty accurate for my needs, and I have ammo that is known for its very fast yawl cycle. Everyone needs to figure whats best for them personally. You can fallow the herd, or listen to the hive, or whatever... I am fond of thinking for myself based on my needs and experience. Good Luck everyone 5.56 has better terminal performance than 7.62x39 556 to your abdomen or x39 Ya think it'll matter in a "shtf" scenario? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile The difference in wounding potential could very well matter from a self defense standpoint. Remember, again, your goal is to stop the attack, not kill the guy three weeks from now because of an infection. A round with a far greater wounding potential is more likely to accomplish that goal. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 10:21:57 AM EDT
[#45]
How many us servicemen have been wounded with shots to the torso in the GWOT, and what was their outcome? I think modern body armor and our use.of tournequets for wounds to extremities have helped our survivability moreso then the 762s perceived lack of killing/wounding ability.
How survivable were shots from 762x39 through the chest in vietnam? Fwiw my go to carbine is a 14.5" AR with an aimpoint, light, and loaded with 77hpbt handloads but I sure dont want to be shot with a 762 and think anyone armed and trained with a reliable weapon would be good to go with either. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 11:20:00 AM EDT
[#46]
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How many us servicemen have been wounded with shots to the torso in the GWOT, and what was their outcome? I think modern body armor and our use.of tournequets for wounds to extremities have helped our survivability moreso then the 762s perceived lack of killing/wounding ability. How survivable were shots from 762x39 through the chest in vietnam? Fwiw my go to carbine is a 14.5" AR with an aimpoint, light, and loaded with 77hpbt handloads but I sure dont want to be shot with a 762 and think anyone armed and trained with a reliable weapon would be good to go with either. I don't think survivability is the issue we have with 7.62x39. It doesn't matter to me if you bleed out in 3 minutes or die of infection 2 weeks later as long as you're incapacitated and are no longer trying to kill me. To do that as quickly as possible, I want the best terminal performance I can find. The problem with 7.62x39 is mainly bullet selection. M43 is cheap, but it has some series problems. M67 and 8m3 are both better. That Hornady SST looks really amazing from what gel tests I've seen. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 1:07:49 PM EDT
[#47]
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I don't think survivability is the issue we have with 7.62x39. It doesn't matter to me if you bleed out in 3 minutes or die of infection 2 weeks later as long as you're incapacitated and are no longer trying to kill me. To do that as quickly as possible, I want the best terminal performance I can find. The problem with 7.62x39 is mainly bullet selection. M43 is cheap, but it has some series problems. M67 and 8m3 are both better. That Hornady SST looks really amazing from what gel tests I've seen. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many us servicemen have been wounded with shots to the torso in the GWOT, and what was their outcome? I think modern body armor and our use.of tournequets for wounds to extremities have helped our survivability moreso then the 762s perceived lack of killing/wounding ability. How survivable were shots from 762x39 through the chest in vietnam? Fwiw my go to carbine is a 14.5" AR with an aimpoint, light, and loaded with 77hpbt handloads but I sure dont want to be shot with a 762 and think anyone armed and trained with a reliable weapon would be good to go with either. I don't think survivability is the issue we have with 7.62x39. It doesn't matter to me if you bleed out in 3 minutes or die of infection 2 weeks later as long as you're incapacitated and are no longer trying to kill me. To do that as quickly as possible, I want the best terminal performance I can find. The problem with 7.62x39 is mainly bullet selection. M43 is cheap, but it has some series problems. M67 and 8m3 are both better. That Hornady SST looks really amazing from what gel tests I've seen. So where are we seeing a disproportionate amount of non incapacitating center mass shots from 762x39? And like you brought up bullet construction is an important player too. Lets compare dpx or sst instead of premium 556 and junk 762. |
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Posted: 7/15/2015 11:15:35 PM EDT
[#48]
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So where are we seeing a disproportionate amount of non incapacitating center mass shots from 762x39? And like you brought up bullet construction is an important player too. Lets compare dpx or sst instead of premium 556 and junk 762. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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How many us servicemen have been wounded with shots to the torso in the GWOT, and what was their outcome? I think modern body armor and our use.of tournequets for wounds to extremities have helped our survivability moreso then the 762s perceived lack of killing/wounding ability. How survivable were shots from 762x39 through the chest in vietnam? Fwiw my go to carbine is a 14.5" AR with an aimpoint, light, and loaded with 77hpbt handloads but I sure dont want to be shot with a 762 and think anyone armed and trained with a reliable weapon would be good to go with either. I don't think survivability is the issue we have with 7.62x39. It doesn't matter to me if you bleed out in 3 minutes or die of infection 2 weeks later as long as you're incapacitated and are no longer trying to kill me. To do that as quickly as possible, I want the best terminal performance I can find. The problem with 7.62x39 is mainly bullet selection. M43 is cheap, but it has some series problems. M67 and 8m3 are both better. That Hornady SST looks really amazing from what gel tests I've seen. So where are we seeing a disproportionate amount of non incapacitating center mass shots from 762x39? And like you brought up bullet construction is an important player too. Lets compare dpx or sst instead of premium 556 and junk 762. I'd like to see this tested: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/340541/federal-fusion-ammunition-762x39mm-123-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 8:39:31 AM EDT
[#49]
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I'd like to see this tested: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/340541/federal-fusion-ammunition-762x39mm-123-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-box-of-20 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEo6avZd9ys This second one has two calibers in the same video so you have to watch details, but it's .223 and 7.62x39 Fusion in gel thru a windshield: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upyDQyr-3Lk |
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Posted: 7/16/2015 9:17:12 AM EDT
[#50]
Those fusions look great! Thanks for the link
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