One of my jobs is the supervisor of an intensive outpatient facility.  You'd think the seriously mentally ill would be the threat that sparked this idea, but they're actually pretty tame for the most part.  No, what got me thinking was what happened today.  One of my co-workers has an ex-boyfriend that isn't taking no for an answer.  He showed up today and immediately I could tell he was on something.  Pupils, breathing, movements....wasn't fooling anyone.  He came to the counter and asked to speak to my co-worker, then he asked to talk to another counselor.  When he started walking around the counter I stood up and firmly told him to leave.  For whatever reason, he apologized, and actually left.

Problem is, this kid is BIG...6' and 215lbs of pure muscle.  No way I'd be able to control him if he started anything physical.  And while I always have my CTC'd LCP in my pocket, and did today, I would most certainly be screwed if I pulled it or used it because he was unarmed.  Plus if he got his hands on her, she's all of 100lbs soaking wet, he'd snap her like a twig.  

Some might suggest OC.  And I used to carry Fox, but over the years I rely mainly on the pocket pistol and folder when in business casual.  Plus, depending on what he was on, it might not have had any effect.  Still might buy another can and throw it in my pack just for good measure.  

However, a Taser is what I'd like to talk about.  I've been to several trainings/demonstrations with the local cops.  The sound is only rivaled by a 12ga racking.  Jolts you just to hear it.  Again, what are your thoughts on their utility?

Anyone ever added....or deleted....a Taser when it comes to your list of defensive options?  

Thanks

-Emt1581

don't waste your money

totality of circumstances. depending on your physical size, capabilities, and knowledge about the subject. he was possibly on some substance, larger than you, and potentially aggressive, delf defense is still justifiable in certain circumstances.

I don't have any experience to answer your question - but I have the same wish to have a less than lethal option available.

I've seen a number of youtube videos where someone gets tased and it puts big people right down.

And I've seen a number of police carrying them locally, so that says something.

I think posting this question on the "Brothers of the Shield Forum" would give you answers from a whole bunch of people who have substantial experience in tasers and any shortcomings they might have.

Of course tasers are big and so everyone will see you carrying one and that may be an issue. Having it 'nearby' might be the best you can do-thus unavailable for surprise events..

So that leaves you with concealed carry pistol as the 'weapon availible' 90% of the time.

Check your local laws, but when I was in class for my carry permit, we were told to specifically NOT carry tasers, pepper spray, batons, etc.

Reason was if you get into a situation and use the firearm, but had a taser on you, you could be convicted because the pistol wasn't your LAST resort. Even though a person can make the decision at the time what tool is necessary, the law has no such common sense. You had another option that was less lethal that you SHOULD have used instead of the firearm. His advice was: "As stupid as it is, don't carry that suff."


Is much as I would rather use a taser or spray if possible, I don't keep them on my person for the legal aspects of it.


Now if you are LEO or some kind of security position, it may be not only perfectly fine, but a good thing to have as an option for people that are crazy, but not in need of ventilation.


I would consult an attorney.

If you aren't issued it at your job, and you use it as part of your job...

I hope you have a significant amount of money to defend yourself from lawsuits.

I would not recommend you getting one, for a host of reasons.

Liability, low accuracy, and cost are a few.

I would recommend you have him banned/trespassed from the property, and then call the cops if he shows up.

I've put some big boys down with tasers. Usually they say think the taser won't do anything, until after its been deployed. Then they seem to tell you how much it hurt .

In a civilian standpoint however, I wouldn't likely carry one. Taser is a tool for taking somebody into custody and ending an immediate threat so you can go hands on. Your goal is not to go hands on, but gain distance. You also have to consider the times a taser doesn't work and youre left holding a piece of plastic with a pissed off dude. I would recommend you convince her to get a protection from abuse or protection from stalking against this guy. If she does, he goes to jail for showing up at work or even simply texting her. If she refuses the pfa, she isn't really afraid or done with him and I would simply stay out of his way til she decides to be on your team. You also have the option yo have him trespassed, and if he shows up he goes to jail.

I know a piece of paper won't stop him however, and I would advise you to stay armed. If that guy is truly as big as you say, their is justification for deadly force if it comes down to it. Age, size, distance, access to weapons, mental state, history of violence, his combat training, etc all things to take into account when considering deadly force. If you're state has castle doctrine, you give the guy an order to leave or back off, he refuses and makes an advance towards you, you're in fear of great bodily harm or death, you shoot him, that's self defense.

Taser is a great tool, but in my opinion not to end the fight but simply allow you to move in for hands on.

Good post and very true.  Taser has its place, and its on a duty belt.  While illegal in my state, I bet in the next several years they might become a little more advanced, but as they stand right now, they best serve LEO.  Even in that aspect they are highly controversial.  Not something I would want to be involved in...  Especially with no official training or lacking a .gov agency standing behind me.

From a liability stand point, call the cops, let them deal with it.  In the mean time you take what action is necessary to keep people safe, even if that be a limited retreat/ lock the door.  Its a tough situation being in a publicish place vs your homestead protecting yours and your own.  

I don't have a good answer for ya bud  

Have no illusion that TASER is the end all be all less lethal force. I have seen many times a taser fail to incapacitate. Furthermore, what are you going to do when the taser stops the shock? I know for police, we hope to have cuffs on the subject by the time the lock up ends. Will you be prepared for the angry guy you just tased? Do u have handcuffs? I strongly believe that taser isn't the answer to your needs. You'd be way better served with some OC. OC works on 98 percent of the population, the effects are long lasting and painful. Also I believe we paid upwards of $850 each for ours... and we purchased over 40 units.

Just an opinion.

Listent to Code Orange and the post above this one. Spend that money on self defense training or other toys, Tasers are for the police or CO's who are ready when it fails them! IE training, lots and lots of training.

If you get OC, cover the front entrance in tiny obstacles to trip over. If you're like me, I start swinging when I get exposed to OC. I'm pissed my eyes are taking a trip through the seven layers of hell and will fight anyone who touches me .

Seriously OC is one of man's worst creations that I don't pull out cause I consider cruel and unusual punishments. But dam does it work, just be prepared to use that time to create distance.

I'll echo the sentiments from above.

What do you plan to do with the guy AFTER you've tased him.  The five second ride hurts something fierce, but when it's over...it's over.  

One more point to ponder.  Is it really your job to protect your co-worker?  She attracted the douche nozzle for a reason, whether she knew it or not.  You are not the white knight.

Anything used at work should be very carefully considered.



We have oc and tasers at work and you have to be trained to carry or use them at work.



And they are not perfect.  Some folks don't care much about oc, there are some super stout versions of oc out there as well so you get into a game of what someone might be used to or not used to.  At work trainees get sprayed and are taught to fight through the joy of being sprayed.



Depending on how a person is moving, what they are wearing, how excited you are or what all your attention is being divided between, a taser can miss or not get a good connection or perhaps it might be someone who is not really affected by a taser.  We use em at work to get time to gain control just as was mentioned above.  And we have a plan for what happens if it does not work or it misses.  



Play on youtube and find the fails section, I figure they have one.



Should have someone putting oc of some weak sort on their food for hot sauce and I don't know the cost for taser cartridges but I figure some folks should have some vids of shots where the shot went bad.



But it all comes back around to work.  I guess me being me I would ask my boss what in the world he thinks about my concerns.  Are there options?



In today's economy you want to walk away but using your concealed piece and losing your job when all is said and done is a heck of a thing.  Yeah I want to walk away when it is over, but losing the job is an issue to put some thought into.



Mace or taser carried to work and used at work when not authorized for use could be an interesting game if someone sues.



Something commonly already at work or authorised at work is where you want to head.



I always wondered what some of the gals that carry wasp spray would use for their story if they used it on someone?

This!!!!! I stopped carrying mine at work because of the amount of failures

What I'd like to do is incapacitate, cuff (yes I'm trained), and go have a chat in my office so he gets the drift not to come near her again.  And not one of the people at my office would do a thing to stop/report it.  Hell, one of my co-workers is 2nd degree black belt that worked the better part of 10 years helping victims of domestic abuse.  It's be like handing her a pinata with a bow on it.  Plus our offices are sound proofed due to confidentiality.  

But realistically, I just want to have a plan for next time in case he doesn't leave so quietly and isn't so timid.  Due to the layout there's not much capability to create distance quickly without encountering steps, turns, or furniture.  No big rooms or quick access to exits since he'd be blocking the main entrance.  And at the same time, I'll be leaving this place before the end of the summer but this jack-off isn't worth a bullet/investigation.  That's why I just want some way to incapacitate, to buy us some time, and get the cops there to deal with him.  

After reading the replies I'm thinking a Taser might not be the ideal choice but at the same time, depending on the drug, OC wouldn't work either and if the scene re-created itself, 3 female co-workers would have been sprayed with it as well.  I suppose we could stock up on Sudecon wipes but I'm not sure how well those actually work.  

Any other thoughts on  quick, effective, less-lethal options not effected by size or drugs?

Thanks

-Emt1581

Regarding the tazer: I've been tazed as part of a demonstration.  It sucked bad and dropped me to the floor like a bag of rocks.  I have confidence it could do the same to a much larger guy (I'm small).  Lots of complications if you have lethal force on your person.  I would never carry a pistol and a tazer,  EVER. Lots of complications with most employers too,  take a good look at your employee handbook.  I wouldn't carry one if it wasn't issued or specifically authorized by your employer.  I would also caution you to rethink your plan to incapacitate, cuff the guy and take him to your office for a talking to.  Unless you are a LEO this is trouble brewing.

Going to my office was what I emphasized I'd LIKE to be able to do that.  Not my plan or desire in reality.  But in the commission of a crime, bystanders/victims are allowed to restrain until the cops get there.  I only know this for my area. However, I'd rather just eliminate him as a threat instead of going hands-on.  

As for the taser, it wouldn't be carried but kept in my bag under the desk.  When approaching him it would already be in hand so no need to draw and confuse tools.

With going through the handbook....there isn't one.  This is a small practice with 5-10 employees in the office at any given time.  Plus I'm not going to be there after this summer.  On top of that, my boss carries and her husband is a cop...she already told me to do whatever I need to do to defend.  

Again, just need to figure out the best setup to give me all the advantage and take away any this guy might have WITHOUT killing him or even threatening deadly force (unless/until deadly force is called for).  

Maybe OC first then hit him with a taser if the OC is ineffective?  I'm guessing after that, he'd be in too much pain and severely disoriented to put up much of a fight until the cops arrive.  

-Emt1581

IF by taser you mean those stun guns, that arc and pop and shock people they are junk and are useless. I have taken them away a couple times after they had been used on me in fights.
If by taser you mean actual taser with darts it is effective as hell in my experience which is being shot twice with them. Both times immediately shut me down and I couldn't do anything else. It hurts, alot! I have been stabbed multiple times, hit with all kinds of stuff and bitten, clawed and slammed in many fights. I don't ever want to get tasered again.

Do what you want, but my advice is that this is isn't your problem. You will open yourself up to a lawsuit or be fired when things go bad.

The taser is less-lethal, but can easily take an eye out. I've been on both ends of it and most cops miss due to a lack of practice & moving target.  

This.

When charge wears off he is going to be plenty pissed. What do you plan to do next?

eta



trained? LOL. Unless you regulary cuff folks, it is not going to happen. Cuffing a big dude who is fighting back is a chore for even the most experience street cop.

Even if you do manage it, what next? No one is going to report to cops? So cuffed forever or do you have a plan to uncuff him? What do you think happens then? Your face smashed into the concrete would be my guess.

Good Luck.

I think you need to do a bit more reading of what else I actually said before you continue cherry picking quotes for the sake of argument.

-Emt1581

Been reading your posts for years and they are still as silly as ever. Your last strategy:

Maybe OC first then hit him with a taser if the OC is ineffective? I'm guessing after that, he'd be in too much pain and severely disoriented to put up much of a fight until the cops arrive.

It is like you live on another planet. You really think the guy will be "in too much pain and severely disoriented to put up much of a fight"? LOL go shoot some OC in your face or go to PD and get tased and you will see effects wear off very fast.

Do you have any actual suggestions on eliminating the threat and controlling the guy until police arrive?  

-Emt1581

EMT, you're opening yourself to a juicy lawsuit.

Do you have the spare resources to defend yourself?


Spraying, then tazering, then cuffing the guy...

Before taking him into your sound-proofed office for a sit-down talk...

All because of YOUR interpretation of his actions...

Seems like a nice false imprisonment/kidnapping suit, waiting to happen.

Not to mention the criminal assault charges, him beating the shit out of you in 'self-defense', etc...

So any suggestions on actually controlling the situation and eliminating the threat until police get there?

-Emt1581

Just be polite, and if he's a threat that justifies deadly force then respond.

Short of that, let him interact with his [likely] Obama voting GF, and keep your nose out of their business.

Call the cops if he beats the shit out of her, she might deserve it and he'll enjoy it until locked up.  

As already mentioned suggest the GF get a restraining order,


Save the cost of a Taser and lawsuit defense, for some of your favorite and latest survival goodies like the fish hooks, trident, etc, in a wallet sized metal snap-out card, etc.


If you're still hell bent on getting into potential trouble, have a consultation with an attorney, not folks here.


[He'll likely tell you the same thing I did for free, tho]  

There is no threat. Just a guy who showed up to talk to his Ex. When asked to leave, he did.

If you really think he is a threat, get off internet right now and call 911. Get a Criminal Trespass notice. Have Ex get a restraining order.

Your assessment of whether he was, is, or will be a threat is not what I asked for.  

If it helps you to stay on topic, lets assume he comes back and immediately starts shouting, beating property/people/etc.....again.....how do you control the guy and eliminate his ability to harm us until the police arrive?

As for your suggestion on a PFA/"criminal trespass notice"....know how you told me to go watch someone get tased/OC'd...you might want to visit your DA and ask if anyone ever violates them and still kicks the piss out of their victim or even kills them.  

Again, if OC and/or taser is NOT the answer.....what is?

-Emt1581

Some times there IS NO ANSWER!


I'd also get a job far away from the Crazies People...

Because you know the old saying abt how folks' proclivities rub off...

Some would say it's too late.

But 10-4....and as I've said, at the end of the summer I'm done there.

But back on topic....we can plan to feed/hydrate/defend ourselves when the SHTF in times of WROL, get to a BOL, and grab the apocalypse by the balls....but safely deal with an abusive jerk-off....that's a little out of the realm of possibility?!?  

-Emt1581

Just because he might violate an order does not mean you should never get one. If you have one, then as soon as yo u seem him you call 911. Duh. So you really do not understand that?



Perhaps that is a question you should ask your management if you are unable to figure it out. Though it seems they already did "she already told me to do whatever I need to do to defend." Perhaps they need a new supervisor with better problem solving skills.

Talk to your boss and the girl whomever he is seeking.  Tell them to get the police involved.  AT a minimum file a report, have the police talk to the guy and ask him not to come around any more.  That way if he does, its documented that he was already asked by the authority's to STAY AWAY.  Easy trespass complaint after that.  If your boss or this girl are unwilling to do that they are enabling the situation meaning she is playing with him just as much as he is with her.  Lots of girls love drama and the attention, even if its not good attention aka drama queen.

I see it day in and day out, but people always just want to "talk" to the police just to "see" what their options are but never want anything more.  If its a problem deal with it.  If its not walk away.  End of story.

At least in our state family courts hand out orders of protection like candy.  Many times just being involved in a relationship may be enough to get one without much cause.  Tell her to file the appropriate reports and get the authority's involved if she is truly in fear.  If she doesn't want to do that then again, walk away.  If its a domestic violence situation get her in touch with some counselors as they will have a much better chance talking a battered woman into doing the right thing then a guy co-worker.  Getting yourself mixed up in others problems, after you have made suggestions with common sense advise of which they refused to follow is ludicrous.  IF its family that's one thing, but a person you work with?  

I will end with saying:  Do what you need to do if a situation arises just be prepared for the consequences.

I have yet to read where any of this is your problem?  Am I missing something?  Does the ex-GF want your white knight services?  Will she still stand behind you even after you put Johnny Loverboy down?  Remember, if she is seen siding with you then he's going to come at her/you even harder.  Are you stepping up because you feel she's blinded by her love for him?  Is she too weak to handle it (mentally/physically)? Are you the boss of your workplace?  Do you supervisors sign off on your potential use of force to include OC, Taser, cuffs, detaining, and/or impact strikes?

This is her problem.  Until such time that it becomes your problem, then respond accordingly as you would in any walk of life be it a Wal-mart, grocery store, Home Depot, school, church, etc.

Dealing with food, water, and shelter is easy.  We don't face the wrath of violating others rights when we eat a sammich.  Any time you put your hands on another person, detain them against their will, or use force on them, you better be prepared for the fallout.  Think of all the horrible ways your acts of heroship could be misinterpreted (much like here) and multiply it by 10, now you see why many here are reluctant to engage in such a quagmire of "what if's".  Will Johnny Loverboy sulk off quietly into the night to lick his wounds and grow up?  or will he go straight to the authorities to play up everything you did, painting you out as some rouge wannabe george zimmerman type.  In the end you have to ask if any of this is worth it, based on what he MIGHT do to someone else.   If it's worth it to you, and all of its potential consequences, then its best you figure it out on your own.

You do the protection order and trespass notice, not because it will magically stop him from coming around, but because when he does come around now you have some teeth and backing in getting him removed, cited, and/or arrested.

Having the paperwork in place means you can call soon as he enters the business.  Does not matter if he is calm or not, you can make the call to the police right then and there.  And depending on layout you might be able to make the call if he is sitting in a vehicle outside and just stalking her.  



Having the paperwork in place should also help if things go south and you or the bosses wind up shooting this guy.



My carry permit lets me use my firearm to protect others from deadly harm, forget exactly how tn words it but probably also includes grave bodily injury or something like that.



Run a search on oc+tazer, you generally do not use both together.  Oil based oc might catch fire and even water based has some questionable videos out there.  So don't plan on both.



Just the cost of the tazer would keep me from thinking about getting one unless I had a definate interest in having one for other reasons as well.



Carrying in your bag is about like a women carrying in her purse, you can be seperated from the bag and what not.  And your bag sounds worse, probably sits at your desk while you go do other things as well.  



The lady needs to do her part to get the paperwork in order.  All the reasons not to do so are just excuses on her part, if she is making them.  Lots of folks have run into similar things and you can wind up in a heap of legal trouble or civil suits if you overstep your bounds in dealing with this problem.



Her doing the paperwork sets things in motion and makes life awfully simple.  It also lets you immediately tell him to leave or you are dialing 911, as you are picking up the phone.  No questions on if dude is calm or not.  No questions on diddly squat.



You carry at work, so worst case scenerio you fear for your self or her in a serious fashion.



The oc hitting other people is something to consider and it contaminates an area for x amount of time or until cleaned.  In a prison the ventilation system for a pod of cells is shared vents and air flow, so one cell getting sprayed means everyone in every cell is eventually complaining.  Sure it is not as bad as being sprayed, but it is an issue.



I have no clue on the wipes.  Cold water and dawn or baby shampoo or about anything other than what I was hit with works for me.  Change of clothes out in the vehicle if it is bad enough.



 

I just read through this whole thread. To get straight to the point, this is exactly the kind of scenario where Brazilian jiu jitsu is perfect: a single, unarmed opponent whom you're willing to scuff up a little, but don't want to kill.

I don't care how small you are, or how big he is. Size differences almost disappear once you're both on the ground, and everybody's got a neck. The rear naked choke is applied from behind the opponent, where you're somewhat safe, and puts them to sleep in about 6-8 seconds. Let go immediately, and they'll wake up in a few seconds, disoriented but OK. Hold it longer, they stay out longer. Hold it long enough, they die.

I know you were asking for a piece of hardware you can go to the store and buy, while BJJ is software.

There are other problems with my suggestion: you may have a bad back or other health issues that would keep you from training grappling. You live in PA-- I spent 2 years living in rural NE PA, and the only "martial art" available to me in that time and place was boxing. The nearest BJJ school may be far away, or it may suck, or its class schedule may not work for you...

But if you're able-bodied, and there's a good BJJ and/or judo dojo nearby, then I highly recommend it to you. It's a lot of fun, it's great exercise, and you meet the nicest people.

They say you learn everything about BJJ that's useful on the street in the first 6 months. The guys who stick with it after that do so because they love it.

I'm a pretty good boxer and kickboxer with thousands of rounds of sparring and some amateur fights, but if I run into a guy who's considerably bigger than me, and for whatever reason my CCW is not an option, I'd much rather take his back and choke him out than count on being able to drop him with punches and kicks.

Is BJJ an option for you?

Do you know why police have to carry so much on their person? It is because they have to deal with every possible situation folks like you are going call on them for. They get extensive training on using those tools along with tons of experience from everyday calls for service. With details you provided, I'm not seeing criminal intent for any crime. (PA could be wildly different than NC). A person came to visit another at their place at work, was asked to leave, and did without incident. You precieved a threat reported on his size and possible substance abuse, but not on actual threats or actions. I also missed how the coworker wants your assistance, or the police involved. This is how law enforcement will view it as you described. They will be wondering why you think this is leading to a future confrontation where you plan to use less lethal force, which indicates that you don't think he is a deadly threat. If there is an articulable explanation, then you need to file a report with the police. They get paid to handle these incidents, and have legal protections should they go sideways. Call them should things escalate. If you are the type of person who wants to get involved, perhaps you should look into law enforcement, as opportunities abound. In my experience, mental illness treatment centers have all sorts of security measures such as buzz in doors, security officers, not to mention policies for all sorts of incidents. Yours is the first I've heard of that allows weapons inside, especially on employees. The good thing is that you are able to defend yourself should you need to, just know you better be able to articulate why. You can not count on others to defend your position or perceptions. How do you think your coworkers will describe any future confrontation where you are involved? Just food for thought...

So in short, don't buy it. Stay away from drama magnets. Call PoPo.

Now you're opening your self up to criminal charges or a lawsuit. It gets iffy when a guy comes into the business, you taze him, and then handcuff him. Plus you open your self up to getting to a fight with a large male on the ground when you're trying to cuff him. If you taze him, you have five seconds to get on top and get him cuffed. Which isn't any easy task for someone who doesn't do it often. You also Rick getting one cuff on, and the guy then being able to fight with handcuff used as a weapon if you don't get him detained in time. Another thing people don't think of, is you can shock yourself if you taze someone then touch the wires when cuffing. Its not the end all be all.

If she will not get a Pfa or pfs, let her handle her own shit. If you're still not down with that get him trespassed next time he comes back. If you're afraid for your own safety and think he's gonna beat your ass, get your own protection from abuse .

Bad idea, some pepper spray is flammable and can be ignited by a taser. It is against most PD policy to pepper spray and taze cause it can escalate force. Even though our pepper spray isn't flammable, its a no no here unless deadly force is authorized.

What kind of business is it? Can you lock the door and get a buzzer to allow customers in. Yes, I just thought of this brilliant solution as I was sitting at my ghetto gun shop where they buzz people in .

Edit for: Spelling is hard OK?

I'm heavily armed at my job in a highly secured facility with a huge security force. That was a huge consideration when I applied, with having decided against unarmed security in my hometown hospital just prior. That situation sucks; and if I had applied to the hospital job, I probably wouldn't have lasted long just because someone would have found out I carry (which would have been pocket carry there).

I say keep carrying, FOR SURE NO DOUBT. As far as this incident and whether to carry any less lethal options or not... I don't know. I'd rather discourage it than the alternative. You won't be protecting yourself with it, since that being the case you'll probably need to present your sidearm.

What I would do is bring these security concerns with your employer. They'd be fools to ignore the issue, especially if you put that incident on paper.

Something I hate about Arfcom, people will jump you with the general constructive intent stuff all day long. Take it all with a huge grain of salt. That said, go above what your station permits and your employer will probably leave you out to dry, or even claim you were at fault.

You'll get the 'you'll get sued and/or arrested if you ever try to protect anyone but yourself, don't be a mall ninja' all day long.

ETA: The law that spells out your right to self defence usually covers other people, with no relation needed, just as much as it covers you.

Speaking of "Mall Nijnjas", didn't OP start a thread on how to put together
an "ACTIVE SHOOTER " bag to carry while inside a MALL  Just in case
you had to subdue an ACTIVE SHOOTER.  And then there was that
innovative " how do I conceal my handgun in a Public Shower" thread.
Very entertaining.

K, I find some of that stuff ridiculous, but isn't some active shooter rig the fad these days?

Either way, he has a legitimate (IMO) concern now.

I've never heard of a non LEO hospital or doctors office employee having tazors for any type of threat. They rely on security officers for the most part. I think it's the responsibility of the head honcho to establish some sort of security measures for the work place if it's prone to violence. But like someone said its a legit ament concern and you should address that to your superiors. Maybe they will elect you as a back up for something like that. But dont go at it alone with out letting them know your intentions. My .02

I think he said his bosses carry and his bosses kind of left it up to him.



This kind of hangs him out to dry since nothing is in writing and anything he does on his own won't really fall under being covered by the bosses.



I treat this thread a bit like the folks who had stuff posted where they could not have a firearm in their vehicle while on work property, this is before some of the states passed laws making it not such a big deal.



It boils down to this, you might be risking your job if you keep a firearm in your vehicle while at work if the rules say "don't do that."



I make choices everyday.  I accept the responsability that comes from me making a choice and acting or not acting because of the choice I made.  From rolling down a hill in a 25mph zone and maybe getting up to 26mph to whatever else, I am responsible for my actions.



Lady needs to do her part.  Then he can call the cops if dude shows up.  If in fear for his life he carries on premises already.



That is how I boil this down.

This entire idea is just getting worse and worse. Like watching a train head straight for a bridge where the track ends.

Good luck with your choices. I think you need to do some LONG, HARD research into liability and use of force.

I'll reiterate what I think the best course of action is: have the guy barred/banned from the property with whatever your state requires for criminal trespass notice. Then, if he shows up, have your people (and you) go into an office and lock the door and call the police.

Want to know about the Taser talk to a instructor like me send me and IM and I'll help you out best I can if I can't I'll get an answer from the master instructor that taught me.

I have taken down guys that were 6'10 near 400 lbs with a taser. It's all about shot placement same as shooting. Also the are accurate I have seen people get hit from moving vehicles.


Anyone have any questions please send me a message. I'm an instructor and can prove it if need be.

No offense, but when normal guys come upon a potential threat, the planning phase goes into overdrive. Usually well past the point of reality.
Just carry on.

The best backup for generalized "issues" is another capable person or two...call a phrase on the PA "Mr. Green to the lobby" and a few folks can muster up to shag anyone away while someone calls the PD.

Do not make other people's problems your own...this is low-end chicken shit that will fade out shortly.

The only way I would order a taser would be if for some reason a firearm was out of the question.

My wife is timid.  She and I both know that a firearm is not a solution for her.  She's unable to hurt people/take a life.  She'd hesitate at the critical moment, and the offender would take the firearm from her.  However, I do know shed be far less reluctant to use a less-lethal alternative.  The taser would be an ideal solution for her.  Unfortunately, they aren't legal in NY....

As has been mentioned, there are serious issues regarding use of a taser.  Juries, and especially prosecutors,  aren't trained well enough to actually have a realistic opinion regarding the effectiveness of things like firearms, body armor, pepper spray and now tasers.  They've seen too much hollywood where an actor fires one round from a 9mm at 200 yards and the target flies backwards dead on impact, which leads to unethical prosecutors asking "Why didn't you just shoot the attacker in the leg to stop him?".  Or we get the myth that body armor somehow makes the wearer immune to death by shooting.  Likewise, tasters have the same distorted reputation:  You don't need a firearm, and should never use one, because you have a taser.  Just point it at the attacker, pull the trigger, and he instantly flops down incapacitated until the cops show up, we say the magic words, and everything is roses and cherries....  The technology isn't that reliable, and the physiology of offenders isn't that consistent.  And juries often get led into believing you are a monster who stalks streets looking for victims ...

I've carried concealed for onto 20 years.  Thankfully I've not needed to draw  the gun despite being in two situations where it would have been warranted.  I know this:  If the situation is so dire I need to use a taser, then its because life is in imminent danger of serious body injury or death.  The attacker has the ability and the capacity to inflict that damage, here and now.  Those are the same circumstances that warrant use of a firearm.  I regard the firearm as more reliable than the taser.  Do I need proof of this?  Its simple.  Some law enforcement officers carry guns and tasers.  All LEO's carry guns.  If tasers worked better than guns, all LEO's would carry tasers as a first choice.  No one encounters more dirtbags and drugheads than LEOs, and they consistently continue to use firearms as a first line of defense.  Tasers only supplement their sidearms.  This effectively demonstrates to me that while tasters have value, they are less effective than firearms in stopping an attacker.