Hey Norcal can we get a creds review on Amu62?   He is backing up his statements with lots of experience in shootings and we could sure use your judgment call on this guy.


Tex

Bear in mind that in up close (< 5y) self-defense shooting situations speed is king (assuming you can hit your targets).

EXAMPLE OF KISS IN ACTION:  Many don't know this, but two armed robbers attempted to car-jack the late Chris Kyle while he was gassing up at a gas station.  With all his exotic SEAL and sniper training and experience what was his response?  Did he give up his truck just because two pistols were pointed at him at touching distance?  Did he try to run for cover?  Did he start zigging & zagging? Did he perform some other complicated defensive tactic known only to well trained Special Ops guys?  Nope.  He just pretended to hand over his keys while drawing his concealed 1911 45 double-tapping (and dropping) both bad guys before they could pull their triggers.

Anyway, I'm done with this topic.  

Mtpd,

You are correct.  Speed and accuracy are king, however there's a point where the number of opponents overcomes your talent.  Some years back there was an article or show where they set up scenarios with competent shooters. It was determined that the good guy could prevail against two on occasion, but three sealed his fate.  The article was much more descriptive but I think that was the gist of it.

The military uses a 3 to 1 attack to defend ratio against dug-in troops.  Gives you some indication of what good cover can do for you.

I thought I was done with this topic, but because I was originally only concerned with the KISS response to close range attacks I may have failed to point out that at longer distances (10y >) moving off the X, taking cover, etc. has obvious merit.

Bear in mind that with regard to planned scenarios (play acting) all participants know in advance that they are going to have to shoot so are hyper-ready to shoot, while in real-life situations many bad guys aren't really expecting their victims to fight back or be armed, which can slow their reactions enough to give fast-acting "victims" a slight advantage like it did Kyle.  

PS:  My old PD was not MTPD.    

If I'm getting shot at, then yes I'd absolutely return fire. That's the situation I believe this cop found himself in.

If I'm not the one being shot at, and I'm POSITIVE I know what's going on (I'm not about to shoot an undercover cop), and I have some tactical advantage, then I'd probably engage.

No cover, in the middle of a parking lot, not close to the bad guys, and I'm not the person being shot at? I'm running.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Kyle supposedly claimed the above incident happened, but several reputable journalists contacted law enforcement agencies, coroners' offices, and gas stations in the area.  They found no evidence that the incident happened.

Antics like that are dangerous and unprofessional.

Marcus Luttrell says it happened.  (As most of us Texans know, Marcus was one of Kyle's best friends, a fellow Navy SEAL and author of "Lone Survivor".)  Until proven otherwise, I believe him.

For the sake of conversation, lets say this did happen to Mr. Kyle. ( I honestly have no idea if it did, and don't really care)

Any of us would have done the same thing.

Yet again, we are talking about VASTLY different circumstances.

If there are armed threats facing you, engaging you, or otherwise directly threatening you or your family, you are going to act. Period.

Not a single post in this entire thread is advocating anything other than direct and violent action toward direct threats. (At least how I read them)

Even if they are wearing armor, and pointing AKs at you. If you are being directly threatened, you should engage with as much violence and force as you are capable.

Those of us that train, train for multiple attackers.

Now, if we move that conversation to an indirect threat, you have the opportunity to vastly increase your survivability with simple, and well thought out tactics - of which, I'd like to imagine - we all train.  This is the conversation I thought we were having. Maybe I was mistaken.

As I mentioned before, there is a high probability that we are talking the same language, just missing each other in passing.

Why does Luttrell say it happened?  Please post links to why he says that, and any links about the shooting itself.

Thanks in advance.

If meant for me, no.

TH12

It's been a while since I did some checking on this, so I checked I to it again, and I find no reason to believe that Kyle killed two car jackers in Texas.

With all due respect, AMU62, the more you post, the less credible you appear.

Thug....

Marcus wrote two books.  #1 "Lone Survivor" and  #2 "Service: A Naval Seal At War".  The Chris Kyle car-jacking incident is described in book #2.  Both are available at AMAZON.COM.

By the way, the incident where Marcus chased four armed scumbags across four Texas counties at speeds of over 100mph because they shot his dog, all the while talking to the police on his cell phone telling them they had better get the bad guys first because he was going to kill them if he caught them, is described in book #2 as well.  Some claim this never happened either, but it did.

(NOTE: I don't recommend informing 911 or the police via phone in advance that you are going to kill some bad guys no matter how PO'd you are!)

Back on topic.  The Garland police officer who successfully took on 2 terrorists armed with AK's deserves a medal, whether he killed the bad guys with his 45 or not.  At the very least he stopped them long enough for SWAT to send them to virgin-land.

The moral?  DON'T MESS WITH TEXAS!

I drove by where those two shit stains were waisted today... the blood stains were still there.

I'm aware of Luttrell's dog being killed, and his chasing the shooters.  Unlike Kyle's supposed shooting of the car jackers, it was well documented in the media.

I haven't read Luttrell's second book.  I have read his first.  I was also attached to SEAL Team 10 a couple of years after Operation Red Wings, (interestingly, my parents sent me Lone Survivor when it came out during that very deployment) and I spoke to some SEALs who were participants.  Some were mentioned by name in his book.  As is often the case, there was some disagreement about some things that happened there.  I have no reason to think anyone is lying, but I use this as an example to point out that people can disagree on facts, sometimes due to faulty memories, sometimes due to miscommunication.  You should know that if you have conducted investigations, as you claim.  If Luttrell wrote about Kyle shooting car jackers, my guess is that he simply repeated a story without fact checking it.  I never met either Luttrell or Kyle.

Again, please post reputable news stories or police reports about Kyle shooting car jackers in Texas.  I can't find any, except for articles that debunk it.

"wolf-killer"  

I just got through this thread.  Lots of bull shit being thrown around.  Some one answer me this: since when has having a CCW obligated you to protect the general public?  

"Reputable news stories"?  You've got to be kidding, there aren't any such things!  Many of my cases made the papers and some made TV and not a single one was 100% correct.  And lots of other stories never made the papers at all.  In addition, I don't remember the location of the attempted car-jacking incident being identified in the book, so it may not have happened in Texas.  

As a police officer I'm sure you know that "newspaper stories" (or the lack thereof) are not proof of anything.  For example, think of "Big Mike" in Ferguson.  How many "reputable newspapers" printed a story about him beating and robbing elderly blacks?  And if none did, does that mean it never happened?  And if it never happened how come I saw a cell phone video of Big Mike brutally beating and robbing an elderly black man that was posted on a police forum?

It's a matter of personal morality.  Either you have it or you don't.

Mere speculation, but I'm guessing that any attempt at engaging the bad guys might end poorly when the swat team opened up. You would likely be ventilated unless there were some compelling factors: you're a different color and look like a cop, you're wearing a suit and they have towels on their heads. Low light? You are toast.

Having access to a firearm doesn't mean you're a cop or gunfighter. I may own a scalpel, but I'm no surgeon. You are under no obligation to do anything at all, no one has the faintest expectation that a guy is just gonna go up against islamists for the hell of it. This is a specific set of facts and circumstances (mostly unknown lol), not a columbine, Mumbai mall, flight 72 hijacking, etc.

Absolutes can be bad.

I guess we have different morals.  It's not a have our have not deal.  My reason for carrying is to protect my family.  

By that reasoning, how much of a paycheck % do you give to charity?  How many of your preps are slated for random passerbys?  How much community service do you do a month?

I don't have it.

I suggest you re-read my post.  I stated I believed Luttrell repeated a story without fact checking it.  I don't think he lied.  I also don't know who told Luttrell the story in the first place.  I don't know what type of agency you worked for, but I am a cop in one of America's twenty largest cities.  Like you, I noticed that news stories contain inaccuracies.  In fact, only two or three very short articles about incidents I've been involved in were completely accurate.  Three sentences appears to be the media's limit of accuracy.  More than that, they got something wrong.

Most matters to which police respond and investigate don't make the media.  Many of the shootings to which I responded didn't get any coverage, depending what else news-worthy happened that day.  However, every single homicide to which I have responded, and to the best of my knowledge, every single homicide in the city, makes the news.  Every single one, not only murders, but justifiable homicides.  In fact, the justifiable homicides usually get more coverage than a standard murder.  They always get more coverage than killings involving only gang members.  

Additionally, many law enforcement agencies are posting at least partial reports on the internet.

Plenty of other people have questioned the car jacking killings, and that's because there does not appear to be any evidence it happened.  If it happened, there would be plenty of information to support it.  As I stated earlier, people contacted media, law enforcement agencies, coroners, and business owners in the area that the shooting supposedly happened.  If I found that info showing it to be true, I would share it.  I'm sure that if you found it, you would do the same.  However, looking at this objectively, I am forced to believe that it never happened.  I wish it had, because two less criminals would make the world a better place.

I don't think I ever met Adam Brown.  I am pretty sure he was one of the DEVGRU members killed in a CH-47 shoot down.  Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about regarding him.

Just so there is no confusion, I am not, have never been, and never will be, a SEAL.

Added: If the shooting actually happened, not only should there have been media coverage and official reports, why wasn't it mentioned in American Sniper?  If it happened after publication, it could have been added to later editions.

Toby says:
I guess we have different morals.  It's not a have our have not deal.  My reason for carrying is to protect my family.  

By that reasoning, how much of a paycheck % do you give to charity?  How many of your preps are slated for random passerbys?  How much community service do you do a month?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AMU says:

We carry (legally) for self-defense, the defense of innocents and to assist any police officer that needs help.

We are retired (AKA unemployed) so we don't get paychecks.  We are not "prepers" except for keeping a little extra for hurricanes, and are not "survivalists" in the "run and hide from threats" sense of the word.  The only community service we do is responding to the neighbors' burglar alarms (2x lately) and doing volunteer work for United States Senator Ted Cruz and Texas Governor Greg Abbott. But be assured that all random passers-by that look like Playboy Playmates will be welcomed with open arms.  LOL!      

We are not wealthy but contribute to: The Wounded Warrior Project, Disabled American Veterans (DAV), Alliance Defending Freedom, NRA-ILA and "Truth in Action" TV Ministry. I'm also a member of the American Legion, our local Rifle & Pistol Club, Patriot Guard Riders (PGR), and the NRA (Life Member).

Toby has two small children.  He will not be blindly engaging people unless it's a last resort.

Thug:

I apologize for any misunderstandings I may have gotten from your posts.  I've gone back and tried to correct some of my responses.

Get Luttrell's #2 book and see what you think about the car-jacking story.  SEALs have Top Secret security clearances so it's possible that Kyle's name was kept out of the papers as a courtesy, just as the shooter's name in Garland was.  

Also, everyone here should read "FEARLESS" by Eric Blehm.  It's the truly amazing and pertinent life story of Adam Brown, a brave and exceptional American SEAL Team Six guy (KIA).  

Stay safe!

We lost SF on the way through this.

The SF answer is don't get involved unless:

1. The bad guys pose an immediate threat to you/your family.
2. Possibly exterminate them if they will be a future threat and it can be accomplished with relative safety...meaning you're not alone and under-gunned.

Dang, looks like I stirred up a proverbial hornets nest here lol.  Guess I should have known this would be a touchy subject.  Got SMU69 up against the ropes it seems.

I will be starting a few new threads including ...

"Garland Cop Fails to Stop Multiple Rifle Threat - Lessons Learned" and

"Would you Engage Multiple Armed Bikers at a Breastaurant if Carrying just Your Kel Tec P3AT?"

Stay tuned ....

Getting hairy down here in Texas.  Keep your head on a swivel.

I agree with Premise #1

"2. Possibly exterminate them if they will be a future threat and it can be accomplished with relative safety...meaning you're not alone and under-gunned"



On the condx ---doing it when you think it's SAFE to do so....

Good luck with the civil [if not the criminal] legal hassles and prison time you may face for "exterminating" folks YOU perceive as Bad Guys.

Plus the Social Media attacks.  Oh my....

Does your family REALLY want to be bankrupted and ruined for a Bazillion Bucks, or the loss [more likely] of the Hand that Feeds them ---especially for saving O voters?  

Hey, we were going the fantasy route already, so I figured I'd embrace it!

Was thinking of a different scenario with the same players. Scumbags in AO that pose no imminent threat to me, but will cause havoc and kill innocents shortly. WROL, not cartoon club meeting.

The "safe to do so" embodies the bravery of the keyboard commando.

and sadly many don't

So there may or may not be video.

Nicely played Sir...  

Seems to me you'd have to imagine how you'd live with yourself if you knew you had a chance to stop a mass shooting, and chose not to do so.

No need to encumber this choice with whether your kids/wife are present; we know your first duty is to them.  Let's assume you're in the position of the cop at Garland, but you're not on duty.  Do you take the shot?  You know the intent and the capacity of the bad guys; you're aware of the vulnerability of those inside.  You have no family, or they are safe at home.

"none of my business" probably won't make you feel better afterwards.

My .02

The best info has been put...and put out.  
We have minimal facts, half the folks have no basis of knowledge other then feelings, some claim knowledge that is questionable.

This thread needs to go the way of the dinosaur.

I don't know about Texas, but in NY civilians have a duty to retreat.  You start blasting away in a situation in which you could have safely left, you are opening yourself up to criminal and civil charges. And God help you if you are white and the perps are sons of O.  

And what if you are misinterpreting the situation.  What is its not terrorists but a group of kids filming a movie that you happen across??  Just rush in and start shooting?  Good luck with that.  Just tell them you read that on Arfcom.  

Texas is not New York. We are truly progressive with our gun laws.

To his point, though, it's a great idea to know your local laws.

I'd hate for one of us to win a gunfight, and lose our freedom over some dumbass state law, like the NY one.

It never fails to amaze Texans that folks that reside in states that are more like the UK than the USA don't move.  Freedom is just a short drive away, pack up and move to Texas!    

Easier said than done.  Not so easy when you have a wife and kids.

Damn... the same truck that he was shot and killed over because the guy wanted to take his truck for a joy ride?

Maybe he should have handed over the keys that day...

We aren't all retired, like you.
When the time comes, maybe.

Dear Clueless:  The POS who murdered Chris and his buddy didn't do it to steal Chris' truck for a joy ride.  Nor did Chris get a chance to hand over his keys or anything else.  The killer waited until Chris and his buddy had emptied their guns at targets at the range then shot them down without warning.  It was a cold-blooded premeditated double homicide and had nothing to do with your ignorant remarks about keys & joy rides.

Your wrong. The killer specifically told detectives what his motives were. He also told his family the the same thing.


Educate yourself before you accuse others of being clueless.

3y:  Having personally conducted several thousand felony investigations, and having arrested and interrogated hundreds of felons, I know a BS story when I hear it.  Apparently some with less real-world experience don't.  Are you really dumb enough to believe this was just a car-jacking case?

You need to chill gramps.

The facts are what they are. Your opinion may be different, but your attitude is pathetic.

Oh, and no one cares about your made up BS past.

The guy that killed Kyle was mentally I'll, and part of his motivation was that he liked his truck and wanted it. No one said it was "just" anything.

Reading comprehension. Get some.

I just read the verbatim statements made by both the State and the Defense at the killer's trial.  Neither stated anything about the MOTIVE being the theft of Kyle's truck.  And by the way, both victims were shot in the back.  Do some research junior.

Where they were shot has no bearing on their motive. I thought you were a detective?

Let me help:

AMU, you going over to AZ to show that guy outside the mosque how to shoot?