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Posted: 5/5/2015 12:29:47 PM EDT
[#1]
Not if I had a choice.
The last time a CCWer tried that, he got killed for it. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 1:06:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Only if it was my very last option.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 1:18:40 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only if it was my very last option. This |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 1:48:57 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only if it was my very last option. This is what I think. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 1:54:32 PM EDT
[#5]
Hell no, unless no other choice and/or the circumstances were highly favorable for a positive outcome -and even then if there were some extremely compelling reason to engage.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:08:42 PM EDT
[#6]
Would not have a clear conscious if I just turned and walked away and people died. That being sad I'm not an idiot either and wouldn't come running at them with guns blazing either. Also all depends if I was with my family or not.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:10:40 PM EDT
[#7]
I think no, I'm out of there.
But this incident shows what a good person with marksmanship skills can do. One cop with a .45 auto vs. two goat fuckers with AKs. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:39:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Hey there brothers. First post with my new account. I lost my old account (Jayce THe B-Hole). Anyways, i am glad someone is addressing this issue. The LAME Stream media has failed to point out how brave this law enforcement officer was. What kind of man throws down on two suited up guys with AKs and snail mags....WITH HIS SERVICE PISTOL?! Them police know how to shoot in Texas. Did you guys see that it an austin police shot a gunman down in the street...shot was at 100 yards WITH HIS SERVICE PISTOL IIRC. It was a long arse shot.
This brings me to my real point. I carry a .45 Glock 36 (because they don't make a .46 ACP!). I don't have many shots, but i need to keep it concealed. Faced with a similar situation as that goat F-k up in garland, I don't think i could have put my soul at hazard and said, alright, I'll be part of this world. I would like to know if anyone has any additional information on this fracas. 1. Did the office have cover? elevation? 2. What was his situational awareness level? Was he posted up? Actively scanning? 3. Did the moslems return fire? I kind of doubt they did. Seems like even two fools with AK snail mags could suppress one man with a handgun. By all accounts, the officer was well trained but no Christopher Costa. 4. At what range did the engagement occur? Seems like the more answers i get, the more questions i have. The media never focuses on what is important. An incident like this should be properly examined so that we can all learn something. I would hope that I could exhibit the courage that this officer did. Don't know if i could. I mainly use my pistol to fight to my rifle. Interested to hear what you gents have to say. You all stay safe. Lots of sheep AND wolves out there. -PPtPE |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 2:51:33 PM EDT
[#9]
Not if there was any other option.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:08:36 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<snip> 1. Did the office have cover? elevation? 2. What was his situational awareness level? Was he posted up? Actively scanning? 3. Did the moslems return fire? I kind of doubt they did. Seems like even two fools with AK snail mags could suppress one man with a handgun. By all accounts, the officer was well trained but no Christopher Costa. 4. At what range did the engagement occur? Seems like the more answers i get, the more questions i have. The media never focuses on what is important. An incident like this should be properly examined so that we can all learn something. <snip> -PPtPE These are the things I would like to know also. What was the layout? Where was the officer who was shot in regard to the perps and where was the officer who shot them located? Did the perps see the officer that dealt the fatal shots? |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:26:41 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
So the question got me thinking ... would you hesitate to engage multiple attackers carrying rifles and wearing armor if you just had your pistol?? I am not LEO so aiming this question more towards my fellow CCW crowd. Don't want to turn this one into a whole 9mm vs 45 discussion either. I can't say what I'd do until I'm there, I don't think any of us can. But I think all of the internet 'a pistol is no match for engaging someone with a rifle' debates are somewhat invalid, if you are talking close range. At close range, a gun is a gun and either variety can kill you, as this case proves. I'd like to think I WOULD engage a bad guy with a rifle, with just my pistol, if the range was close - within 25 yards maybe. Shot placement. It could end up going well, as it did this weekend. Or it could end badly, as it did with Mr. Wilson in Tyler, TX a few years ago. But if the situation is terrible enough, you gotta do what you gotta do. If you don't, then I guess the situation wasn't bad enough or the action important enough. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:29:30 PM EDT
[#12]
don't want to save lives ...its simple
do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:31:05 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware  |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:38:36 PM EDT
[#14]
Pistol vs Rifles: It all depends on how good a shot you are and the distance involved. At very close range = <10y a 45 auto pistol in the hands of an expert shot is just as fast and deadly as a rifle. At longer distances rifles dominate. When body armor is involved head shots are essential and combat pistol accuracy distance drops to <5y.
However, Master Class combat pistol shooters would probably be effective at somewhat longer distances. And, of course, it also depends on how accurate the rifle shooters are. 
By the way, I was one of two designated Snipers on my old Police Department. The other Sniper was a Traffic Cop, so being a traffic cop doesn't necessarily mean you aren't a top shot! |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:40:08 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Pistol vs Rifles: It all depends on how good a shot you are and the distance involved. At very close range = <10y a 45 auto pistol in the hands of an expert shot is just as fast and deadly as a rifle. At longer distances rifles dominate. When body armor is involved head shots are essential and accurate pistol distance drops to <5y. However, Master Class combat pistol shooters would probably be effective at somewhat longer distances. And, of course, it also depends on how accurate the rifle shooters are. I also wonder if these guys actually had body armor, or just mag carriers and it's being misreported as it has in the past. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 3:46:10 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pistol vs Rifles: It all depends on how good a shot you are and the distance involved. At very close range = <10y a 45 auto pistol in the hands of an expert shot is just as fast and deadly as a rifle. At longer distances rifles dominate. When body armor is involved head shots are essential and accurate pistol distance drops to <5y. However, Master Class combat pistol shooters would probably be effective at somewhat longer distances. And, of course, it also depends on how accurate the rifle shooters are. If you can approach from concealment, if you have cover, what the opfor is focusing on, etc, etc. It's very difficult to make blanket assessments like sniper1 did above. You must engage no matter what or you're a spineless pussy!  If they are focused on your position from 10 yards away, you're probably in a losing situation if you pop out to take a shot. You won't do anyone any good dead. If you can flank them and approach from the side or rear, you'll fair better. This whole thing is entirely situational. What about the backdrop? Is there a kindergarten full of kids in the playground behind your target? Be smart. A gunfight is a thinking man's game. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:00:35 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted:
would you hesitate . Hesitation kills. shit or get off the pot. Otherwise, don't bother carrying. 
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:04:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
There are many different variables at play here. ... It's very difficult to make blanket assessments like sniper1 did above. You must engage no matter what or you're a spineless pussy!
... Be smart. A gunfight is a thinking man's game. Hesitation kills. Have an idea of what you're going to do but when shit hits the fan, you best make a decision and quick. It IS a thinking man game so if you're asking yourself now whether you'd hesitate, you already have issues. Train to engage and kill, always. You can decide at the moment whether to fight or flight. If you haven't trained and have hesitation in your head, you've already lost the thinking part of the game and probably the battle. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:06:53 PM EDT
[#19]
I carry to protect myself and my family.
I do little good to my family dead. Every attempt will be made to un-ass the area. Should running not be an option, I have an XD 45 with 13+1 and a reload. I will unleash whatever hell I can on those bastards. Going up against 2 men with AKs with only a 45 pistol and surviving is proof of divine intervention. Skill is needed, but your odds aren't good. That said, with my 4 inch XD in 45, that pistol has NASTY muzzle flip, and slow follow up shots (compared to a full size 1911: my previous EDC). I need to try out a full size XD, or get a new comped barrel for my 4 inch. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:13:50 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hesitation kills. Have an idea of what you're going to do but when shit hits the fan, you best make a decision and quick. It IS a thinking man game so if you're asking yourself now whether you'd hesitate, you already have issues. Train to engage and kill, always. You can decide at the moment whether to fight or flight. If you haven't trained and have hesitation in your head, you've already lost the thinking part of the game and probably the battle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There are many different variables at play here. ... It's very difficult to make blanket assessments like sniper1 did above. You must engage no matter what or you're a spineless pussy! ... Be smart. A gunfight is a thinking man's game. Hesitation kills. Have an idea of what you're going to do but when shit hits the fan, you best make a decision and quick. It IS a thinking man game so if you're asking yourself now whether you'd hesitate, you already have issues. Train to engage and kill, always. You can decide at the moment whether to fight or flight. If you haven't trained and have hesitation in your head, you've already lost the thinking part of the game and probably the battle. You couldn't be more wrong. Do you know how I can tell you are new to this? Charging into a situation like a retard will just get you shot, and now you're placing first responders at risk. Hesitation is not the same as attacking intelligently. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:14:22 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I carry to protect myself and my family. I do little good to my family dead. Every attempt will be made to un-ass the area. Should running not be an option, I have an XD 45 with 13+1 and a reload. I will unleash whatever hell I can on those bastards. Going up against 2 men with AKs with only a 45 pistol and surviving is proof of divine intervention. Skill is needed, but your odds aren't good. That said, with my 4 inch XD in 45, that pistol has NASTY muzzle flip, and slow follow up shots (compared to a full size 1911: my previous EDC). I need to try out a full size XD, or get a new comped barrel for my 4 inch. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:15:34 PM EDT
[#22]
I believe that he has to be "The Gunfighting Preacher" because he had the Lord on his side!
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:32:24 PM EDT
[#23]
Glad to see I'm not alone here. Lots of good thought provoking discussions. I agree with many of the points made. I have small kids now and that really changes your mindset. Retreat is often not an option. And I agree that just charging into a gunfight is a good way to get yourself killed. I am not an expert by any means but I'd throw this out there ... in videos I see of law enforcement engagement, it seems that even LEO engage smartly. Like taking time to find cover first when possible, etc.
You guys with more training feel free to chime in on this one. My friends and I send a lot of rounds downrange each year but I am not formally trained at all and know this is a point of weakness when it comes to survival scenarios. I am definitely even more proud to be a Texan when a story like this has a happy ending. I would say this sends a good message to those who try to attack on US soil but we're not dealing with rational people here. Second and related question ... does anyone have any intel on why the Garland SWAT team are the biggest and scariest group of guys on the planet?? Do they recruit from special forces and make them lift weights or what?? lol |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:53:13 PM EDT
[#24]
We had similar discussions after the movie theater shooting.
Actually I guess we usually have this sort of discussion after anything major like this. It comes down to the exact situation and you might not know the whole situation you are walking into. A lot of folks carry a full size because of questions threads like this bring up. Others who cruise around with minimum stuff sometimes say they are mostly figuring on things being contact distance for some of what they carry. Generally it also gets brought up as to why anyone thinks a trunk gun would be good and in a past thread some folks had interesting carry items for going to and from work. I think one was a folding in half pistol carbine, forget if kel-tec makes it or who makes it, but folded in half it fits in a laptop bag and several of the glock mags go in with it. It allows for possably shooting with better accuracy. For me it would be better accuracy, I don't want to step on any toes. One thing I will say, if your job has you running to things that cause most folks to run the other way your reaction might have you moving before your brain fully engages. My uncle makes fun of me out at the pizza place and the local emt folks use a tone that my place uses for emergencies. I was half up out of the chair and listening to see what direction I needed to head. They use the tone for little stuff, for us it means everyone respond right now who is able. I was tired and it was just reflex, normally I sit up straight a bit but don't start getting out of the chair. Talk about taking your job home with you. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:55:46 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hey there brothers. First post with my new account. I lost my old account (Jayce THe B-Hole). Anyways, i am glad someone is addressing this issue. The LAME Stream media has failed to point out how brave this law enforcement officer was. What kind of man throws down on two suited up guys with AKs and snail mags....WITH HIS SERVICE PISTOL?! Them police know how to shoot in Texas. Did you guys see that it an austin police shot a gunman down in the street...shot was at 100 yards WITH HIS SERVICE PISTOL IIRC. It was a long arse shot. This brings me to my real point. I carry a .45 Glock 36 (because they don't make a .46 ACP!). I don't have many shots, but i need to keep it concealed. Faced with a similar situation as that goat F-k up in garland, I don't think i could have put my soul at hazard and said, alright, I'll be part of this world. I would like to know if anyone has any additional information on this fracas. 1. Did the office have cover? elevation? 2. What was his situational awareness level? Was he posted up? Actively scanning? 3. Did the moslems return fire? I kind of doubt they did. Seems like even two fools with AK snail mags could suppress one man with a handgun. By all accounts, the officer was well trained but no Christopher Costa. 4. At what range did the engagement occur? Seems like the more answers i get, the more questions i have. The media never focuses on what is important. An incident like this should be properly examined so that we can all learn something. I would hope that I could exhibit the courage that this officer did. Don't know if i could. I mainly use my pistol to fight to my rifle. Interested to hear what you gents have to say. You all stay safe. Lots of sheep AND wolves out there. -PPtPE I'd rather have had a 5-7 in that sort of general situation than a 9mm or 45, etc.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 4:56:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware -Chest thumping? |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 7:06:57 PM EDT
[#27]
One major difference in this shooting, is the officer was not here protecting his family, his job, presumably, was to protect the complex. I'm sure in the back of his mind he was thinking, "Holy cow, if these bastards get inside, there will be much bloodshed." From what I understand, they had opened fire on him. I'm sure he thought that if he didn't return fire, he was a dead man. He was in an almost empty parking lot, with only his vehicle for cover. He did well.
I cannot extrapolate what I would do in that position, not being LEO. But getting my butt out of there, I agree being the preferred option, might have put you at greater risk of taking a fatal bullet. I dunno. Need more facts. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 8:12:02 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: -Chest thumping? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware -Chest thumping? |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 8:14:23 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: One major difference in this shooting, is the officer was not here protecting his family, his job, presumably, was to protect the complex. I'm sure in the back of his mind he was thinking, "Holy cow, if these bastards get inside, there will be much bloodshed." From what I understand, they had opened fire on him. I'm sure he thought that if he didn't return fire, he was a dead man. He was in an almost empty parking lot, with only his vehicle for cover. He did well. I cannot extrapolate what I would do in that position, not being LEO. But getting my butt out of there, I agree being the preferred option, might have put you at greater risk of taking a fatal bullet. I dunno. Need more facts. It's almost difficult to have this conversation because one minuscule detail could change the whole thing. Me, off duty, in a movie theater? Only if my family were safe and before the uniforms arrived. (I'm not wanting to be shooting when they show up and get ventilated from behind) Me, on duty, in a movie theater? Headed straight for the best way to end him. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 8:58:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Its good to see you here in SF, Becauz3y. Thanks for your sensible input. It is appreciated.
We are, by and large, pretty down to earth, sensible folks.
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:00:51 PM EDT
[#31]
Amu nailed it. If you are close enough to fire fast, you might do ok. You're trying to hit faster than two guys trying to hit you...the game is speed and accuracy suffers with distance. Honestly, I'd be looking at a cars length as the limit for speed, accuracy & luck.
Perhaps some OODA loop moves as well. Maybe the guy made a movement that made it harder on the bad guys...moved so one bad guy was in front of another or something. The guy is lucky to be alive. Anyone who fantasizes should just watch the North Hollywood bank shoot out vids for a look at what will happen with guys who have practiced. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:06:18 PM EDT
[#32]
In Nebraska I have a duty to retreat. I can only use lethal force if all conceivable avenues of retreat are exhausted. Anything less and I risk jail regardless of the outcome. We are not permitted to stand our ground. It is insane but nevertheless the law.
My CCW is here to protect my life and my family's. I'm not looking to go to jail for a decade for anyone else unless my circumstances are airtight. Not looking to be a Johnny Rambo hero either. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:10:06 PM EDT
[#33]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting
Mark Alan WilsonA local resident, Mark Alan Wilson, was in his downtown loft when he heard the shooting begin. He looked out his window and saw Arroyo at the courthouse steps engaged in a shootout with law enforcement. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, immediately armed himself with his Colt .45 caliber pistol, and left his residence to intervene in the gun battle. Because Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers, he did not see Wilson approach from behind. As Wilson approached Arroyo from behind, Arroyo was taking aim at his son whom he had already shot in the leg and wounded. Acting to defend the life of Arroyo's son, Wilson fired a round from approximately 50 feet, which struck Arroyo in the back, causing him to stumble and taking his attention away from his son. A witness who saw Wilson's round strike Arroyo reported seeing "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This is believed to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson was forced to take cover behind Arroyo's truck in a prone position and exchanged fire with Arroyo. As Arroyo began to approach Wilson's position, he stood up from behind cover and fired again, hitting Arroyo. Unknown to Wilson, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, rendering Wilson's shots ineffective. Arroyo eventually fired a shot that struck Wilson, who faltered and fell from the view of witnesses, face down behind Arroyo's truck. Arroyo then walked up to Wilson and fired three more shots at him, killing him. |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:45:00 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If running away from a fight is chest thumping, then yessiree. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware -Chest thumping? Not directed at you Bcauz3y, I wholly agree... 
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Posted: 5/5/2015 9:47:23 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not directed at you Bcauz3y, I wholly agree...  |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 10:04:38 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only if it was my very last option. This... Long Odds, but you are a sure loser if you have ZERO means of defense... BIGGER_HAMMER 
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Posted: 5/5/2015 10:15:35 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Only if it was my very last option. This +1 |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 10:18:46 PM EDT
[#38]
The pistol is a defensive weapon. I would not know if they were wearing body armor unless it was the kind worn outside the clothing. Etc.
Yes, not just yes, but HELL YES. What a great way to die! |
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Posted: 5/5/2015 11:08:38 PM EDT
[#39]
The last advanced concealed carry class I took, the instructor wanted to show each of us what our own "effective range" is. So, the drill was shoot 3 rounds at the steel target. If you get 2/3, you move to the next spot back. We started at 20yds and moved back by 10 yards each time. At 100yds. I hit 2 out of 3. That was as far back as we could go. Since I was using a 45, it took <forever> between the BANG! and the ding at the target. So, even though it's not difficult to shoot a plate at longer ranges, it's not a certainty, and, if the target is moving, there is a little "lead" that's required if you're shooting a big, slow boolit.
Good for this cop that he took down a couple of useless dregs with his service pistol. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 12:45:51 AM EDT
[#40]
There is something that many of you are not taking into consideration. Since Columbine, police have been changing tactics for active shooter situations. There is no "wait for backup" option. Police are now being trained to act by themselves and with what they have on their person. The mindset is now to nullify the threat as quickly as possible. That means acting alone many times. Cops run toward the sound of gunfire to stop the aggressive action. I have no idea what kind of training Hadji 1 & 2 had or what prior intel they had. Obviously they were not expecting well trained police to be on scene or not expecting as quick a response from the police.
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:25:19 AM EDT
[#41]
Score one for the good guys.
I think this proves that skillful employment trumps equipment (a little divine intervention probably helps too!) It sounds like this officer used what he brought to the gunfight, in this case that topped out at a pistol. Credit where credit is due. He performed well. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 4:51:06 AM EDT
[#42]
You should carry the most capable handgun you can realistically carry and proficiently use. This is one of my mantras and this is just the perfect example. Sometimes a 22LR derringer does it, sometimes it doesnt. In this case, you want all the pistol you can have. Something like my favorite Glock, the Glock 31, shooting357SIG, that would be the kind of gun that stretches nicely what you can do with a handgun. Its one of the most accurate rounds and has a pretty flat trajectory for a handgun round.
In cases like these, your 38 snubby just wont cut it unless you're an all time great short barrel revoler shooter. FerFAL |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 10:17:35 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You should carry the most capable handgun you can realistically carry and proficiently use. (Snip) In cases like these, your 38 snubby just wont cut it unless you're an all time great short barrel revoler shooter. FerFAL With that train of thought a Guy with a SBR ar15 should stay at home and let the big boys with the hk91/FAL do the work! Besides capicty sub compact vs wheel gun the difference is what...if rounds make contact.? ...revert back to your 1st sentence ... Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 10:41:08 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware In most states you only have the right to defend yourself from immediate threats to yourself and loved ones, and once the threat to you and yours is no longer present, you do not have ANY rights to employ physical or lethal force against another. I've never heard any instructor, lawyer, prosecutor, judge, police officer or professional state that you should ever intend to use your personal defense firearm in the manner you're suggesting, which is wildly reckless to yourself and others. You are not trained to function as a police officer and should not act as one (impersonating a police officer or authority figure in any form is a felony in most states). A fire extinguisher is not a lethal weapon, a firearm is. Please learn the difference. I hope you do not have to use your firearm at any time, as this post can and most likely will easily be used against you ("look at this gun toting cowboy out to kill people without government training or regulations! They're a danger to everyone!") |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 11:26:48 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting Mark Alan WilsonA local resident, Mark Alan Wilson, was in his downtown loft when he heard the shooting begin. He looked out his window and saw Arroyo at the courthouse steps engaged in a shootout with law enforcement. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, immediately armed himself with his Colt .45 caliber pistol, and left his residence to intervene in the gun battle. Because Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers, he did not see Wilson approach from behind.As Wilson approached Arroyo from behind, Arroyo was taking aim at his son whom he had already shot in the leg and wounded. Acting to defend the life of Arroyo's son, Wilson fired a round from approximately 50 feet, which struck Arroyo in the back, causing him to stumble and taking his attention away from his son. A witness who saw Wilson's round strike Arroyo reported seeing "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This is believed to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson was forced to take cover behind Arroyo's truck in a prone position and exchanged fire with Arroyo. As Arroyo began to approach Wilson's position, he stood up from behind cover and fired again, hitting Arroyo. Unknown to Wilson, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, rendering Wilson's shots ineffective. Arroyo eventually fired a shot that struck Wilson, who faltered and fell from the view of witnesses, face down behind Arroyo's truck. Arroyo then walked up to Wilson and fired three more shots at him, killing him. Estrada and her 22-year-old son, David Hernandez Arroyo, Jr., were entering the courthouse for a hearing regarding her ex-husband's failure to pay child support after their 2004 divorce. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 11:33:03 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Here we go again... Estrada and her 22-year-old son, David Hernandez Arroyo, Jr., were entering the courthouse for a hearing regarding her ex-husband's failure to pay child support after their 2004 divorce. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler_courthouse_shooting Mark Alan WilsonA local resident, Mark Alan Wilson, was in his downtown loft when he heard the shooting begin. He looked out his window and saw Arroyo at the courthouse steps engaged in a shootout with law enforcement. Wilson, who held a Texas concealed handgun permit, immediately armed himself with his Colt .45 caliber pistol, and left his residence to intervene in the gun battle. Because Arroyo was already engaged in a heated gun battle with sheriff's deputies and Tyler police officers, he did not see Wilson approach from behind.As Wilson approached Arroyo from behind, Arroyo was taking aim at his son whom he had already shot in the leg and wounded. Acting to defend the life of Arroyo's son, Wilson fired a round from approximately 50 feet, which struck Arroyo in the back, causing him to stumble and taking his attention away from his son. A witness who saw Wilson's round strike Arroyo reported seeing "white puffs of powder-like substance" come from Arroyo's clothing. This is believed to be the first time Arroyo was hit or injured during his attack on the courthouse. Wilson was forced to take cover behind Arroyo's truck in a prone position and exchanged fire with Arroyo. As Arroyo began to approach Wilson's position, he stood up from behind cover and fired again, hitting Arroyo. Unknown to Wilson, Arroyo was wearing a bulletproof vest, rendering Wilson's shots ineffective. Arroyo eventually fired a shot that struck Wilson, who faltered and fell from the view of witnesses, face down behind Arroyo's truck. Arroyo then walked up to Wilson and fired three more shots at him, killing him. Estrada and her 22-year-old son, David Hernandez Arroyo, Jr., were entering the courthouse for a hearing regarding her ex-husband's failure to pay child support after their 2004 divorce. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 1:09:56 PM EDT
[#47]
So the question got me thinking ... would you hesitate to engage multiple attackers carrying rifles and wearing armor if you just had your pistol?? Some people have gotten lost in the weeds. The answer to above is probably a "yes" to all but those who have never had an objective assessment of their handgun abilities. Two armed men with rifles/armor is unforgiving to fantasy. If you had any warning, your average professional would not bring a 2" barrel with 5 shots to this scenario...period. It would be interesting to get an honest AAR on the skill of the bad guys...did they stink? Perhaps, but an impressive win in any case. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:05:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware Go get 'em you big 'ol sheep dog, you!!!!
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:22:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not sure how the laws are in your state, but I'm quite sure in all 50 that having a firearm does not make you a member of law enforcement or public defense. In most states you only have the right to defend yourself from immediate threats to yourself and loved ones, and once the threat to you and yours is no longer present, you do not have ANY rights to employ physical or lethal force against another. I've never heard any instructor, lawyer, prosecutor, judge, police officer or professional state that you should ever intend to use your personal defense firearm in the manner you're suggesting, which is wildly reckless to yourself and others. You are not trained to function as a police officer and should not act as one (impersonating a police officer or authority figure in any form is a felony in most states). A fire extinguisher is not a lethal weapon, a firearm is. Please learn the difference. I hope you do not have to use your firearm at any time, as this post can and most likely will easily be used against you ("look at this gun toting cowboy out to kill people without government training or regulations! They're a danger to everyone!") Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
don't want to save lives ...its simple do not carry if you are goina make ANY type of excuse then DON'T CARRY step up to the plate so yer walkin around with a FIRE extinguisher and you DON'T want to USE IT...? be as smart as you can , citizens are NOT TAUGHT TO command people to do as YOU instruct them the police are... even a officer can be caught off guard and killed way to easy... be safe be aware In most states you only have the right to defend yourself from immediate threats to yourself and loved ones, and once the threat to you and yours is no longer present, you do not have ANY rights to employ physical or lethal force against another. I've never heard any instructor, lawyer, prosecutor, judge, police officer or professional state that you should ever intend to use your personal defense firearm in the manner you're suggesting, which is wildly reckless to yourself and others. You are not trained to function as a police officer and should not act as one (impersonating a police officer or authority figure in any form is a felony in most states). A fire extinguisher is not a lethal weapon, a firearm is. Please learn the difference. I hope you do not have to use your firearm at any time, as this post can and most likely will easily be used against you ("look at this gun toting cowboy out to kill people without government training or regulations! They're a danger to everyone!") Easy there fella, have a snickers bar. You start out with not knowing the laws in his state, this completely negates your entire argument. Not a single point you made is the least bit true here in Florida. That doesn't make you wrong in your state, just cant assume everything is the same everywhere. Now civil suits are a whole other aspect of this not yet mentioned. |
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Posted: 5/6/2015 2:22:30 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed! It's almost difficult to have this conversation because one minuscule detail could change the whole thing. Me, off duty, in a movie theater? Only if my family were safe and before the uniforms arrived. (I'm not wanting to be shooting when they show up and get ventilated from behind) Me, on duty, in a movie theater? Headed straight for the best way to end him. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: One major difference in this shooting, is the officer was not here protecting his family, his job, presumably, was to protect the complex. I'm sure in the back of his mind he was thinking, "Holy cow, if these bastards get inside, there will be much bloodshed." From what I understand, they had opened fire on him. I'm sure he thought that if he didn't return fire, he was a dead man. He was in an almost empty parking lot, with only his vehicle for cover. He did well. I cannot extrapolate what I would do in that position, not being LEO. But getting my butt out of there, I agree being the preferred option, might have put you at greater risk of taking a fatal bullet. I dunno. Need more facts. It's almost difficult to have this conversation because one minuscule detail could change the whole thing. Me, off duty, in a movie theater? Only if my family were safe and before the uniforms arrived. (I'm not wanting to be shooting when they show up and get ventilated from behind) Me, on duty, in a movie theater? Headed straight for the best way to end him. How often are you on duty in a movie theater? |
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