I have recently come into a substantial amount of money (mid eight figures) from the sale of my business that I'd like to spend primarily on precious metals after I finish filling in a few gaps in certain areas of my personal preparedness. I know that precious metals dealers such as APMEX and possibly others keep customer purchase records for a period of time, and the last thing I'd want is for those records to end up in the wrong hands if I were to purchase PMs from them and for armed thugs to end up on my doorstep. On the other hand, if I were to make large purchase by check with the local coin dealer I've bought from for the past decade, what are the odds that local bank employees might snoop on my transactions and then I'd have LOCAL thugs on my doorstep? I've never bought more than a few thousand dollars in PMs at one time until now, primarily from my local dealer who I also consider a friend, but the last thing I want to happen is to leave my money in the bank where it isn't really "my" money, which is why I'm wanting to dump most of this cash into buying PMs. I haven't yet discussed my financial intentions with my lawyer, but I'm wondering if setting up a trust to keep my name from becoming public record in this regard and buying precious metals through that trust would be the best way to preserve my OPSEC. This is brand new territory for me and I want to cover my tracks from the outset not just with regard to the fact that I want to buy maybe a million ounces of silver (hey, I can dream now that I have the money, can't I?) but keeping people from knowing I have this much cash at my disposal in the first place. I figure many of you here are pretty well-versed in OPSEC issues, so I thought I'd throw this out for discussion. Any advice would be appreciated.

Trust is not a bad idea, I'd definitely look into that route. I can't think of any real issues with it, but then again, I'm just a layman as far as this goes.



I'd like to hear what you find out though!

Any large purchase of ANYTHING will leave a paper trail. Pay by check, bank transfer or CC and there is a record. Pay by cash and both the bank where you get the cash and the PM dealer you pay in cash will trigger reporting.

Buy from a reputable dealer and have it delivered to your door by overnight carrier. Use a bank transfer to pay for the transaction.

I have used Texas Precious Metals. Great company and very good prices. They are the only PM dealer who offers a limit order. This works the same as a stock limit order, set your buy price for the commodity and it will be purchased when the PM hits the price, day or night.

If you are buying silver I recommend you buy full mint boxes (500 coins) of AEs or MLs.

Dude your talking about buying $20 million in silver, someone will take notice! I would start taking 9k a week out of the bank and start paying cash for silver/gold you want as part of your daily life especially when you travel plus buy some modest amounts monthly from online companies. I would be very careful those amounts could get you killed, money does that to some people.

The part in red will get you in trouble, it's called "Structuring Cash Withdrawals". If the intent is to avoid the reporting of cash withdrawals over $10k by doing multiple smaller withdrawals you just broke the law.

It sucks but it is what it is.

Color me suspicious of a first post from someone with millions to spend on PM without anyone knowing.

As to how, maybe form a business entity like a LLC or corporation and have someone else be the official agent (which is public info, use your lawyer).  Capitalize the business with your millions, and then just have the company buy the PM from its own bank account.  I guess it would also need to have some shell address to ship to that couldn't be linked to you.  Ultimately, you can put some layers between you and the PM but it isn't easy for the amounts you are talking about.

If you were just buying something like $200,000 worth, you could go in person to a few different places and pay cash.  I don't think they take your name or anything if they are selling to you.

I also think putting your entire fortune in PM, regardless of how big or small it is, would be a terrible idea.

Congrats on the sale!

If you are worried about total collapse enough to want to invest a substantial portion in precious metals, you should worry about confiscation of precious metals. It has happened before in this Country in 1933. Trusts will too leave a paper trail.

With that kind of money and apparently your concerns about the market  I'd consider getting the bulk of your net worth in real estate, and some offshore. You could continue to buy precious metals in smaller amounts.

Well, I Googled how to maintain OPSEC while purchasing large amounts of precious metals and this site is one of the first ones that came up. For that matter, this is my first post on this particular site, but this isn't my first rodeo with regard to preparedness in general and OPSEC in particular. The thing that's new for me is suddenly having $40 million in the bank. I'm sure what has been going on in Cyprus and other countries with governments imposing a sudden and substantial tax on bank deposits to maintain the government's finances hasn't escaped the notice of many of you here. This sort of back-door confiscation is on its way to the U.S., it's just a matter of when.


I can't capitalize the business because I don't own it anymore. And pulling large amounts of cash from the bank will trigger IRS paperwork and scrutiny.



Leaving my entire fortune in the bank where it can be taxed in a Cyprus-like confiscation or otherwise made inaccessible via a bank holiday or other such event would be an even worse idea.

There are dozens of places and ways I can hide precious metals on my property where the government can't easily find it. I've already taken care of food, firearms and land in my preparedness efforts over the past decade, so now that I have addressed those needs, precious metals are the obvious next step.

The federal government has more than $17 trillion in debt. Confiscation of precious metals (if the feds can actually get their hands on it) won't even begin to make a dent in that debt. For that matter, the government can't confiscate what they can't find. I plan to make it as difficult and dangerous as possible for them to find what I have.

I already have a chunk of agricultural acreage that has been sitting dormant for a while--I own the property, but I've hired someone to keep cover crops growing on it until now to keep the land productive.

Buying and keeping anything offshore defeats the purpose of buying it, in my opinion. If I can't access it when the poop hits the fan, it doesn't matter that I own it on paper.

With that amount of money I would not put it all into PMs.
Perhaps 25% in PMs, 25% into off shore investments in 'stable' countries, then the rest in conservative bonds. All of this assuming you just want to live off of your wealth instead of actively reinvesting it to make more.

You may also want to consider getting citizenship in a less financially restrictive country than the USA.
With the kind of $$ you have there are firms that cater to doing just what you want as far as protecting your assets.
Do not try and circumvent the US banking & IRS laws, this level of $$ will not go unnoticed if you play "stupid games" .

First part of good OPSEC is not detailing your plans on ARFCOM.

you are on the wrong website.  

ar-jedi

Welcome to Arfcom.Usually in a first post an introduction of ones self is in order. A first post like yours always kind of leaves me thinking your a member of an alphabet agency.I would talk to my financial advisor and lawyer. With that kind of scratch have you thought about starting a business that involves precious metals? It might make the procurement process safer. And definitely help
with the opsec aspect of your situation. Good luck.

Strange first post.

Asking financial advice from a site like this with 8 figure dollar amounts in question.
Seems like someone with kind of money from a business would already have some financial sense.

This a Troll thread ?

Yeah with 40 million in the bank I am sure he would have been approached by some serious investment firms.  Call EuroPacific Capital. I am sure you could get on the phone with Peter Schiff himself with that kind of investment.  He could help you.

Any who.  Dropping 20 mil at one time is going to raise flags everywhere.

I meant create a new business, put some amount of money into it, and have the business buy PM.  So ABC Corp. bought X ounces of gold, not willshootforfood.

Overall I would be very careful.  Taking money out of your bank account and buying gold is 100% legal.  Some machinations to avoid scrutiny might be illegal, like structuring transactions to avoid reporting requirements (ie taking $9,500 out of your account each day).

Was wondering myself

 

Oldie welcome post dredged from the archives


Welcome to the SF




Right now I can think of:
Current events –– ongoing or happened within the last 6 months:
3 SF members that are recovering from job loss.
1 team member that lost their home due to fire
1 member that lost her BOV to fire

History –– has been posted in SF since I found the SF:
home lost to fire
BOV totaled in head on crash because of drugged driver
5 or more new little SFers born
Visits to the ER due to infection, injury, and insect sting allergy
5 or more hurricanes
Flooding in Cedar Rapids
TJ’s BOVs destroyed by severe weather

I point this out to say that you can have the perfect retreat but be really hurt by a simple accident. Being a prepper makes dealing with these less troublesome.

Do you and your wife have a plan for
fire
severe weather
pregnancy
job loss
vehicle loss

.
Oh well, could always just get a million at a time to go shopping. Fill the paperwork out, its your money

I think it would be cool to have a million sitting around

Forgot, what kind of business did you sell?

Of course its not a troll thread.

People who have the business savy to build a business worth 40 million always go to random websites after a brief google search to get financial advice.

Assuming not a troll:

You won't be able to transact without a paper trail beyond onsie-twosie cash coin purchases. FYI mid 8 figures
is is a truly massive amount of money in the physical PM world -- on par with half of what Brink's has
eligible for sale in their vaults, and about 3% of what JP Morgan has if you converted to gold.

The actual financial transaction details generally only cover the amount, not what is purchased.

I know of at least one dealer who's invoices have zero identification on them. An invoice is provided for
tax purposes, but there is nothing on them other than the precious metal amounts and the price -- and
they did this at the request of the local police. Someone can literally break into their business, and
while they would get a customer list and presumably thousands of invoices, there's no way to connect
who owns what. From the government snooping perspective, remember, the wire transfer details will only
identify an amount and the destination.

On top of this, in the US at least, you can make like-kind precious metals exchanges without triggering
a reportable tax event. In other words, you can exchange 100 oz of silver coins for one 100 oz silver bar,
or a 400 oz gold bar for gold eagles.

If you combine these, there's really no way for someone to know what you're actually holding and
in what form.

A trust may be used to separate you from the transaction details, but rest assured the banks involved
will have the details of the transactions coming in and out of yours and the trust accounts, so it's only
offering insulation from a local bank employee on your personal account's side from seeing the transfer.

I can also guarantee you'll have storage and delivery issues with a million ounces of silver. That's
31 tons (real 2000-lb weight tons, not PM tonnes).

I'd strongly advise talking with both your lawyer and a professional tax accountant, and handle your
banking through either a bank that caters to high net worth individuals, or through the wealth management
side of your bank if it's one of the larger national ones -- this will solve the disclosure concerns. Banks are
very protective of high-net-worth clients, since they're so profitable to the bank.

I suspect so as well, but it's also possible this isn't a first post, just a first post from this account.
I.E. someone could be a long term ARFCOMer and created this account just to ask this question
in a more OPSEC-aware way.

But probably a troll.

Done: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1666104_.html&page=1

With that kind of money you should be buying land.

I've already gotten a few calls and I've told them that I'm not playing in the paper markets, period. I keep a $100 trillion bill from Zimbabwe on my office wall as a reminder about counterparty risk. There are no counterclaims on the gold and silver that I already own.

1fromtx, I am not a businessman per se, I am a computer programmer and recently sold the one-man programming business I started more than 15 years ago.

I was a business minor in college until I bombed accounting for the second time. I kept thinking FIFO was my professor's dog.

I already own a little under 100 acres of agricultural land, not counting an orchard that covers another dozen or so acres. I've been growing primarily cover crops since I bought the land three years ago but am thinking about renting it out for the next couple years until I get a more solid idea of what I want to do with it.

Thank you, Seek2, this is the most helpful post so far in this thread.

Why not cut out the middleman?

Form an LLC and contact Silver Wheaton, Freeport McMoran, Hecla, etc.

You're talking 10, 20, 30 tons, someone will talk to you.

I dabble in metals, but nothing on the scale you are talking.

As above, I think you need professionals, and I doubt there is any legal way to avoid a paper trail.

I would recommend at least looking into dealing with these guys:

https://mcalvany.com

They deal with the kind of money you are dealing with, and they can help you place physical metals overseas in at least two locations if I am not mistaken.

I know several of the men who run their wealth management side from church, and know they are men of integrity.  They are not always right in terms of predictions, but they are guys who take their job seriously and I would trust them to have my best interests at heart in their dealings with me.  That is the only reason I would recommend them.  I don't have enough money to invest on their level (I think they start around $250k for a low end account).

I have about $1.5 million in life insurance, and have told my wife that if I die she is to go to them and put it in their hands to manage, based on my knowledge of them as individuals.

How is that for an anonymous internet recommendation?

I believe there are a fair number of unethical folks in the financial services world, and I believe in the precious metals area especially, so having someone who you really trust do the due dilligence before investing with ANYONE (including the folks I recommended) is important.  If you don't have a lawyer or accountant who you trust I think I would start there myself.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Random thought and not really what you asked...

100 acres of land? Depending on its layout (eg, 10x10 vs 20x5, etc.), I'd do something like make a blackwater-type business.  Open it up to LEO, mil, etc.  You won't be avoiding the attention of the feds, but you'll probably be on the "he's a good guy" list.

Hannes Tulving is that you?

Interesting anecdote that might be applicable here: Yesterday, I went to the local coin guy that I've been buying from for years. Some lady was there (his wife, I presume) and when I asked if they had any silver Maple Leafs, she asked the guy who was in the back (my regular guy), and she relayed the message "No." Since the price went down significantly this week, a bunch of folks had come in and bought. The regular guy comes out and says, "Oh, I didn't know it was you. Sure, I've got a few, let me go get them for you." Point being, a regular will be treated different than somebody walking in off the street.

Establish a relationship with a dealer that you trust and start making reasonable size purchases on a regular basis. Even if you go to one of the major dealers (or especially up to the wholesale/producer level), buying a boatload all at once will not only raise red flags all over the place, it will also cost you since you'll be driving up your own cost to purchase. If you look at the ratio of gold to silver Eagle sales at the US Mint, it's roughly 50-50 by value. That means folks are buying boatloads of silver, but they're still buying gold, too. Spread out your purchases both time-wise and provider-wise. Buy both gold and silver. Go buy some ranch land (or some working ranches), and put some of your stash in a safe place at each.

Also, with the kind of scratch you now have, you could buy some good land, critters, drill several water wells, have somebody come in and frack a gas well, get a big gas-powered generator or ten, wind, solar, greenhouses, and pretty much set up a self-sufficient place to live in perpetuity. But, you probably already knew that.

I'm not trying to avoid a paper trail per se, I just don't want any locals besides the coin dealer I've bought from for a decade to know that I'm stockpiling precious metals.



Placing metals overseas will do absolutely no good if the poop hits the fan here, because getting them back into the country will be pretty dicey. There are plenty of places here that I can hide stuff and keep it in close proximity.


My local coin dealer is a straight-up guy that I trust. I have chatted with my CPA about a few things and he understands my reluctance to put much money in banks or in the paper markets. I've told him that I plan to buy precious metals, I just haven't told him how much I have in mind.

I'm wanting to avoid as much attention as possible from feds, LEOs, etc. Keeping the land for agricultural use will give me and my family and friends plenty of room to grow our own food and lease it to like-minded people as well to grow their own food.

No, Hannes Tulving doesn't have metals or money anymore, remember? Or maybe you hadn't seen this:

http://about.ag/tulving.htm

Hannes Tulving is in deep doo-doo.

With that much money, you don't buy gold, you buy POLITICIANS.

He got away with it the first time, I think his miscalculated this go-round.

I'm buying gold and silver BECAUSE of politicians!

I'd definitely be getting with a lawyer and accountant that handle high end clientele.
They are out there and know how to protect your privacy as well as law allows.
Im sure your going to hear 'trust' quite a bit.

That said, I'd be purchasing a large working farm/ranch with that kinda money.
I'm talking sections of land.

Buying metals or anything else for that matter should be done in cash.
Withdraw odd amounts, and do it randomly. Never more than $6-7,000 at a time.
Put the physical metals in various locations, and never get sucked in to 'paper' metals.

Send me $1M because I'm a solid guy.

A working farm/ranch is at the top of my list.

With regard to cash purchases of metal, withdrawing only $6-7K at a time is going to get me flagged for structuring in a heartbeat. Like I said above, I don't mind a paper trail per se as long as locals don't know what I have. And paper "metals" are the last thing I'd think of doing, for the reasons mentioned above.

I was told by my banker that any amt 5K or more either deposited or removed triggers a report...  Just my .02

If you have that much you can pay someone to buy it for you in their name and have it dropped shipped for pick up.  

Heck I will do it for 3%

best thing to do is first post about it on the internet

start a precious metals business.

Buy all you want for selling to customers at wholseale prices.

Don't sell to customers.

Make up the numbers for the tax returns

Die before they catch you.

Leave a treasure map for your wife and kids

That is actually a great idea.

Actually, any amount of cash can trigger a SAR (suspicious activity report). Some banks have policies of automatically
filing at set amounts. Separate from this is the $10K form 8300 reporting requirement to the IRS and the $10K FinCEN form 104
report.

Safe to say you're on multiple radars with large cash transactions, and could be on some radars with any cash transaction.
One more reason for him to be using tax accountants and lawyers for this, it's fairly easy to break money laundering laws
without even knowing.

Go to the nearest casino a couple time a week and cash big checks. Having a gambling problem is no crime!

Tom

do you want to know your current IP address?  

hint:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_10_17/676681_The_best_way_to_buy_large_amounts_of_silver_gold_without_compromising_your_OPSEC.html&page=1#i11570489

ar-jedi

It's amazing what you can do with a router. I'm in Texas.

I personally would read Austrian's lotto thread.