good for you.  Please keep us posted.

Minor update:

The corporation is being formed.

The quote for the survey is $1300. So my $1200 guess was close.

So far all of my quotes and services have been very well spelled out in what I am receiving and cost. I have to say we are moving forward smoother than I expected so far.

Get your favorite movies on DVD.  You know the ones...you are saying the lines before they speak them.  
Then go to the menu screen> select language> Spanish.  



Watch the movie in Spanish.  You already know what they are saying.  



Repeat many times.  Not a hardship, these are the movies you love.  

Ah gotcha...


Panama has several residency programs. Actually they are pretty easy and varied in their process.

Most people who move are older and as long as they have either $1000 or maybe it is $1200 a month from some source that is verifiable i.e. asocial security or a retirement program you can qualify for a pensionado visa. This program gives you huge tax breaks and vehicle fees on imports  are waived to a degree.

Our situation will call for a "certain countries visa" which requires an investment(property) and 7000 in the bank.

There are many other types. one is a person of means and another is reforesting.

Many folks stay on a tourist visa and leave to get a stamp every six months. We will likely do this initially but will not waste to much time applying for residency.

Panama is interesting in that we can have a service business. However if we want a retail business we are required to have a Panamanian citizen on our board. usually you can't practise as a doctor or lawyer either.

My father bought an Island and moved to Bocas Del Toro 10 years ago. It has been an adventure for him in a great many ways, some good some not so much. He still lives there and hasn't come running back to the US so he is either really tuff or its working out.

Certainly is a beautiful place. How is it during hurricanes?

My dads place is too far south for a real hurricane. The storms there dont typicaly pack much for high wind either. A storm with 25-30 MPH winds is rare. When those winds come through they blow trees and the native huts over and cause a mess.

You  can tell that the hurricane threat is low as many parts of the reefs are inches below the surface.

Sounds nice then. I bet the fishing is spectacular.

Grouper, Shark, along with Barricuda and others.He caught a giant fish maybe a tuna a while back that they had to tow to shore because they couldnt lift it into the boat.

We lived in Panama for about a year, around 2007.  Granted, it was in Panama City, so take my rant with a grain of salt.  If we had lived in Bouquette, maybe our experience would have been different.  I'm not expecting to change the OP's mind, as he's already invested in his decision to move down there. But for anybody else considering it:

- Panama has grinding poverty.  My wife is Colombian and even she was shocked.
- The Panamanians-- culturally-- are very rude.  You say, "Thank you," and they say nothing.  Or, "Okay." if you're lucky.  I didn't find that to be the case in either Costa Rica or Colombia.
- I'm told the banks are corrupt.  There used to be a gringo who ran a site called Noriegaville.com.  Maybe use the Wayback Machine to read some of the old posts.  There was another site too that documented the bank corruption.  They only give lip service to rule of law in Panama.  There is no recourse if the banks take your money.  I know you're thinking, "Why would the bank take my money?  If they develop a reputation of taking people's money, they will go out of business."  Sure.  And god-forbid you listen to some dumb expat who tells you that you can hide money in Panama.  You can't.  One of my neighbors worked for the IRS. The banks down there have desks for the IRS agents to man, full time.  LOL.  Unfortunately, they're not down their to protect your money... they're down there to protect Uncle Sam's money.
- It's difficult to get a gun down there, let alone a concealed carry permit.  If you get citizenship, it might be easier.  I asked at a couple of gun stores, and as a resident he basically told me, "Not a chance."  You might want to investigate this further, though.
- We left because Panama, like a lot of 3rd world countries, make it very attractive for Expats to come... because it brings money and investment and tourism.   But after awhile, they start to get fat and arrogant and begin jerking the expat community around.  For example, they arbitrarily changed the visa from three months to month.  You could live down there on a tourist visa as long as you made a "visa run" every three months.  But every month?  Give me a break.  A large part of the expat community started to put their condos up for sale and leave.  Fortunately, they realized the error of their ways and after 9 months they switched it back.  But by then... we were gone.  So were a lot of our friends.  Gracias, adios.
- This idea that many speak English is false.  You can find people within the professional sector who speak English, if you search for it.  You will not normally encounter people on the street who speak English.  My advice is to budget at least four hours a day to study Spanish for AT LEAST the first year you're down there.  Your ability to speak the language will directly affect your ability to successfully navigate your environment.
- The heat is oppressive.  It wears on you.  

My recommendation is to RENT for the first two to three years before buying anything.  Be aware that construction is not up to American standards.  Everything looks great on the surface, but it is not.  For example: Building inspectors are routinely paid off.  The parking in our high end condo was back to back and not wide enough to back your car out of, if somebody was in the space opposite to yours.  So, you'd have to go find the owner of the car or wait for someone else to back their car up.  These were $200k+ condos.  LOL.

The food was good.  I'll give 'em that.

Just remember, there is no ...........NO protection from corruption down there, and if you are a foreigner, you ALWAYS LOSE...and the prisons down there are no joke.

so traffic accident, = your fault,

taxes not paid (whatever they want to make up) you lose.

Local wants your business = court finds out that your property is actually owned for generations by the complainant and your deed is suddenly void.

I love foreign countries (to visit) but when your the carpet bagger, your on the short end of the stick ...........always.

No matter how friendly they are up front, you will be thrown under the bus when it suits them.

My opinions are formed from My Thai wife as to our relocating to Thailand and several horror stories from friends that have started businesses in Mexico as well as owning retirement property down there.

Panama may be slightly different, but I would have serious reservations regardless.

I am glad you chimed in. as I said earlier it is good to hear all opinions, especiallly from someone who lived there. And I agree with much of what you said, but there are a few points where my experience differs...

Of the six or seven expats I interviewed with a billion questions about moving, none were citizens, and all had guns. they did say the process could take months and that the guns have to stay in the stores possesion until the paperwork clears.

As for language I have always felt you shoud strive to speak a countries language and can't imagine not wanting to do so. Having said that however, if you go to the carribean coast many people will speak english. In fact I forced a few of them to endure my spanish so I could improve...they would have prefered english.

The poverty is real. not as bad as what I have witnessed in Romania, Trinidad, or the African continent.

The corruption is also very real and something that must be dealt with.

As for the heat, It is cooler in Bocas right now than in Virginia.

I personally don't care for much of the food.


It is like this in my opinion... All of the longterm expats I speak to say that it is improving, whereas America is not. It is almost as if the two are moving towards each other in regards to corruption.

But many say they have more freedom despite the corruption. The government is ineffectual in many ways.

I think it's good that you've had a lot of travel experience.  You sound like you've got an open mind about listening to both the negatives as well as the positives.  I'm sure you'll be fine.  If you can, leave yourself a life-line back here, just in case things don't work out.

Safe travels.

That brings up a good point...

I have a fall back position here. I am a prepper at heart and will still be better prepared here in America than 99% of thd population. Of course I would have to get here.

But that is the curse of a prepper. We what if ourselves to death. At the end of the day you have to accept that survival relys heavily on chance and personal ability.

At the end of the day life's too short and if Panama's your place in the world rock on!
There was this American I met in Buenos Aires. He didnt like USA one bit and liked Buenos Aires a lot, but the  place he liked the most was India. This wasnt some fat cat living like a prince in India, he loved the smells, the people, the culture, the food, everything about it. I couldnt understand how anyone would preffer that to USA, but then as time went by, a bit older and wiser I understand that we're different people and sometimes want different things.
FerFAL

We have an expression in English... a dicho, if you will: "There's an ass for every pot."
:)

Man I'd always be out on the water.

Keep updating your experience so we can live vicariously through you.

OK...so my dock is now estimated to need to be 70' long to get out to adequate depth.

I intended to spend 10,000 on the lawyer, survey, and the dock. So then I decided to form a corporation right off. That was an extra $1300. The lawyer fees for transfer were $1200, and the survey is $1300. That means I need the dock to be $6200 or less to stay in my projected budget. At 70' that is unlikely.

The closing was moved back by the seller and me to October 1st. The lawyer could have it ready within a month.

We are going back down for the closing. I am hoping to have a dock built and to buy a boat then. Unfortunately every trip down is close to $4000. But it can't be avoided.

Donations are accepted;)

Already over budget huh?

Well in all fairness I have obtained more cash in some of my liquidation than I expected too. Plus I don't have an actual quote yet. So it may not be too far out of line. I've got my firngers crossed.

I ran a construction company for over a decade and have been responsible for erecting over 400 structures. If I learned one thing it is that staying on budget is the sum of the whole project and not one piece.

But yes I am going over budget.

Cut corners tomorrow to recover from the unanticipated overage today?  

Just messing with you.

Be careful! Don't make improvements to property that you do not yet own. It won't kill you to wait until closing to do the dock. I deal with a lot of real estate myself and I've seen many a seller get free improvements after a deal fell through. 70' will be a very nice setup from the way you describe the property! Best of luck with everything!

Nope, new set of locks.

I was born there.  Last there in 2008.  Panama City is a hell hole, but get out of there and the people are great. El Valle, Boquete, Penonome.

People are friendly, food is great.  Climate is great.

I saw in the news the Chinese are starting on a multimillion dollar canal project in Nicaragua.

Why did you chose Panama over Costa Rica?

Property rights for foreigners and Costa Rica easily grants squatters property rights. Plus Costa Rica property values are quite high. Panama is starting to blow up now, so it was the right time.  Many of the expats living in Panama are now talking about Columbia, but that's not for me.

To get cheaper property you have to go south and beat the rush. Well...south of Panama can get a bit wilder than I like. I might check out some of South America one day, but not yet.

I spent some time in Panama, you don't have to worry about currency exchange, they use the US dollar. when you are in Panama City proper there are banks from all over the world there, banks from Europe that I heard for the first time

LOL, so true, English was taught at schools there back when I was there

My neighbor has an apartment in Paitilla

tag

Translation: Hunter is advising me to think it over. Living in a third world country after having lived all of my life in America is not for everyone.


I agree and this choice is one I came too over the course of years of of consideration and investigation.

On another note we need to define what a third world country is. There isn't anything much I can't get in Panama that I can get here. Their  schools are better than ours, which irrelevant to me. There medical care rivals ours. Living in rural Alaska would likely be as  much or really more dangerous.

So my dock initially was bid at 20,000. Totally out of the question. Some shopping and the new bid including government fees, and etc comes to about $9,200. More than I hoped but doable.

My closing date is going to be October 7th. We will be flying back in for the closing and to see the property markers. We may look into a boat while there.

It is really helping us that the people selling the land are still on their property and are good people. Their help has been invaluable.

Our corporation is set up and the surveying is in process.

But now we have to consider our finances and decide what path to take. I am worried we are going to run out of money. We have enough to do it, but this is for real and naturally those concerns are there.

With all due respect (and I really mean it) if you cant tell well enough what 3rd world country living implicates or what it is, then you shouldnt go to Panama.
We've been through this already and you're as sure as anyone can be about what you're doing, which is fine, life is too damn short to do otherwise. But please, dont lie to yourself about what a third world country is. USA is first world country, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Pretty much most of Europe, those are first world countries.  Panama, along with the rest of central and south America are third world countries. Even Chile that is often named as the only 1st world country in SA, is still a 3rd world country.
I agree with Hunter 110%. Americans and other people used to 1st world living moving to the 3rd world, it very rarely ends up well and I've known a good share. I dont know if you have kids or not, but taking your kids from USA to Panama is just cruel. You just cant see how much a child is denied in doing such a thing. Talking form personal experience here, when my parents moved us back to Argentina after living for three years in USA. I get it how for retired people it may look attractive given the exchange rate and what not, but even then you've got nice climate in several parts of US too.
Panama is 3rd world country if there ever was one, no matter how many nice cheap trinqets you can get or how cheap plastic surgery may be over there.Ciudad del Este in the triple border of Brazil, Argentina and Paraguay is cheap too, and you'll find all tech gadgets at very cheap prices, the again black market guns, explosives, drugs and slaves for prostitution and forced labour are cheap there too.
I know you're pretty much there already, but I'm just trying to convince people that may be seriously considering doing something similar, moving to some other 3rd world country from USA.
There's a reason why millions try to move to 1st world countries every day while so few do things the other way around.
FerFAL

Ferfal: I agree with Hunter 110%. Americans and other people used to 1st world living moving to the 3rd world, it very rarely ends up well and I've known a good share.


Like I said it is good for you to post this stuff. This isn't something for everyone. Allow me to introduce you to a another kind of American.

My family headed to the wilderness those hundreds of years ago for a different life. I am sure to seek an improvement on their current ones. Certainly not for comfort, but for opportunity. Perhaps they even had a sense of adventure too.

Me, I am the guy who risks his life running a rapid, riding a motorcycle everyday, doing a mountain bike trail over my head. Some people like comfort. Some people play it safe. For me that sort of life is unhealthy. My moods get bleak, and I long for that embrace of the world.

I love the jungle, I love the reef. So does my wife. It is as much a part of us as breathing. It's like a religion to a primal need in our souls.

We get locked into our lives as peppers so much that we forget to live. We forget what life can be. It is not supposed to be waiting around for the big one scared to leave the house. I will take my prep per resourcefulness and I will step into a different life and live that adventure. I can't cower in the corner and not try a dream.

Safety and security. A beautiful thing, but not something that the true American spirit can be harnessed with. We have ever been men and women who push forward. Conquerers of of nations and ever curious about what was around the next bend over that ridge.

I have been to 13 countries and have seen third world. They didn't have better satalite and cell phone reception that I do here. They weren't more healthy than the drug afflicted population I am surrounded by. America is not a the utopia that it seems on the surface.

We are falling into a state where our children are taught to be ashamed of success. We are building a society of freeloaders who get paid more to not work than be productive. Still a great nation? To be sure, but a cancerous one. But this diatribe isn't about the faults of one nation or another. It is simply an introduction to an American who says "I see an opportunity" and then grabs life by the balls and does it.

If I were to say, I am taking my wife and we are going to off grid and self reliant in remote Alaska and would be championed a hero. But I am certainly not writing this for any sort of recognition and you wisely council caution before taking a misstep.

I am counciling to those few spirits who feel the pull, and you know who you are. The guys who chose to be grunts, the guys who think adventure is the equivilant of living. I say to you, don't crush your spirit out of fear of the unknown. Because I have news for you...if you are that easily cowed, that unable to adapt and overcome you won't survive a collapse anyway and in the meantime you will never have lived anyway.

I may fail and you guys will be a witness to that failure if it is within my power, but I will have tried and lived life doing it. For those who say what if I lived my dream now, I sincerely hope you never live to say what if I had. Have a plan, be cautious, but don't starve your souls behind your ammo forts.

The time to buy in Colombia was about five years ago (or more).  I lived there in 2007, and even then prices were starting to get too expensive for a 3rd world country that's still (technically) involved in a Civil War.

http://foreignaffairsinstitute.org/2013/08/bogota-y-el-lujo-de-vivir-con-precios-del-primer-mundo-y-salarios-del-tercero/

You can find nicer places to live in Florida for the same money and still enjoy first world amenities... like being able to take your dog for a walk at night.  LOL.

Yep I never considered Columbia. I may trek into Guyana one day. Ecuador may be too late also.

Hey is that Pillow rapid on your avatar?  Good luck in Panama, I spent some time there
in the army and its a beautiful place. Some of my friends from Alabama have kayaked there.
They said it was great!

Good eye for such a small piece of that rapid. It is indeed Pillow. A better photo in the easier lead in than the actual tricky part.

What kind of boat are you looking for?

You sure are sure about it and you'd probably regret it the rest of your life if you didnt go for it. I wish you the best of lucks my friend!
If you'd allow a last piece of advice, learn Spanish, fast! It will be you best tool in this new adventure of yours by a very wide margin.
FerFAL

Consider that advice taken. I am doing my best now and will enroll in a school as soon as possible. Day to day in Bocas will be fine as a good number speak English, but away from there is another story.

And please don't stop posting rebuttals. The dialogue is good as it shows two sides of the coin. My optimism makes me biased and I know you have seen a lot and that likely colors your opinion too.

Anyone else considering this needs to hear it all!

The boat of choice there is a panga. Usually 25' +/-. Their shallow draft and workhorse capabilities are vital.

We just did the same, great feeling after moving for everything and everyone else.  It frees up your mind too and you are able to look at your surroundings as an unbiased outsider to see possible, viable, revenue streams.

You will do well.  A friend ended up doing a resort in Costa Rica on property similar to yours.