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Posted: 9/29/2012 10:21:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor?
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Posted: 9/29/2012 10:25:02 PM EDT
[#2]
Velocity defeats kevlar. IIIA is pretty good protection though. Lessor vests wont stop anything going faster than 1600FPS
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Posted: 9/29/2012 10:38:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? That's is what I have been told for a long time. When I first started security back in 1998 I had cops come in and talk about how they did not wear vests because 22LR would go through them even today I still hear officers who claim that and that is why they do no wear a vest. Maybe they are just lazy and don't want the weight but thats what they still say why they don't wear a vest. Quoted:
Velocity defeats kevlar. IIIA is pretty good protection though. Lessor vests wont stop anything going faster than 1600FPS I'd like to see if some of the older vest we have are a level 2 or lower and try it out with the 22LR round. I know the lower level kevlar is a lot cheaper but are you doing yourself any good buying it if it can not stop the most common round out there? I also need to get a 22lr pistol to see if the pistol can do the same as a rifle. |
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Posted: 9/29/2012 10:46:19 PM EDT
[#4]
The idea that 22LR can penetrate (modern) vests is just a stupid gun counter myth. Using that as rationale (whether true or not) to justify NOT wearing a vest is even more stupid.
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Posted: 9/29/2012 10:47:02 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm not sure, but I think IIIA is supposed to stop normal shotgun slugs and buckshot from penetrating. I'd test that before I'd test .22. In fact, just test it on the one you hit with all those .22 rounds.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16_4.htm (Note that O_P is correctly testing the armor against a soft backing, rather than just hanging it.) |
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Posted: 9/29/2012 11:42:42 PM EDT
[#6]
I was always told that it was a 22 mag, not 22 LR that could go through vests.
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Posted: 9/30/2012 2:35:41 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
I was always told that it was a 22 mag, not 22 LR that could go through vests. Might work with a 22mag don't have one to test. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 3:18:49 AM EDT
[#8]
Me too. I've always been interested to see what a 22 mag FMJ from a rifle would do. I might test it some time.
Quoted:
I was always told that it was a 22 mag, not 22 LR that could go through vests. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 3:36:53 AM EDT
[#9]
Aguila Super Maximum Hypervelocity might have a chance but I doubt it. Its supposedly running 1750 fps. And no I didn't make up that name.
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Posted: 9/30/2012 4:21:36 AM EDT
[#10]
Try a 17 Mach2 based on the 22LR.
Or a 17HMR based on the 22mag. I'm betting both go through. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 4:37:44 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Try a 17 Mach2 based on the 22LR. Or a 17HMR based on the 22mag. I'm betting both go through. I was going to suggest that. I have a feeling both would penetrate. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:09:49 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? That's is what I have been told for a long time. When I first started security back in 1998 I had cops come in and talk about how they did not wear vests because 22LR would go through them even today I still hear officers who claim that and that is why they do no wear a vest. Maybe they are just lazy and don't want the weight but thats what they still say why they don't wear a vest. This. They are rationalizing a bad choice with unsubstantiated rumor out of laziness. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:12:14 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? I once saw a salesman at a gun show tell this lie to someone looking at a 22. It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. As for 22 mag and 17HMR, the rounds would deform and fragment IMO. The PDW rounds like 5.7 and 4.6 can do it, but only with the AP rounds. You'd need special ammo. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:18:59 AM EDT
[#14]
Holy shit there are some stupid people out there.
OP, I know you are more educated than a lot of them, how on earth did you even entertain such idiots with a straight face. While shooting stuff is fun, I can't believe you had a shred of doubt that the Kevlar would not stop a .22lr. *not calling the OP stupid..........just the other dumbasses |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:25:47 AM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? I once saw a salesman at a gun show tell this lie to someone looking at a 22. It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. As for 22 mag and 17HMR, the rounds would deform and fragment IMO. The PDW rounds like 5.7 and 4.6 can do it, but only with the AP rounds. You'd need special ammo. I agree. I have seen several X-rays of the 17 in animals and penetration sucks. It basically fragments explosively right below the surface. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:27:16 AM EDT
[#16]
I've seen multiple instances where .22, and .25, (out of a handgun, and often at point blank range) failed to penetrate multiple layers of clothing. The last lucky customer was March of last year. One went through his neck, but the second round fell out of the inside of his jacket in the E.R.
Bullets ams....crezzy! If you've got a vest, or you're on the job...wear your f-ing vest!!!!! |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 8:10:26 AM EDT
[#17]
A couple of years back we tested some out of date level II and a IIA vests with various rounds.
Most normal handgun rounds were stopped including the .22LR. The vests did stop 00 buck and slugs,BUT, the damage to a person from the impact would have been great. (The impact shattered/dented/smashed the plywood that the vests were hung on. ) The vests did NOT stop the FMJ .22 mag rounds. They did not reliably stop the .17 HMR with v-max bullets. (This may be due to small bullet size with a sharp point.) A LEO friend of mine was stabbed in the back with a Rapalla Fishing Knife at a bar fight that he was called to. They figured that the long, narrow point of the filet Knife slipped between the knit fabric of the vest and got him in the back. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 9:40:55 AM EDT
[#18]
I actually got to try that myself this summer.
My friends BIL is an LEO and he brought over an older kevlar vest, not sure what kind, just what they wear on duty. It stopped .22LR, 9mm round nose, and .45 ACP round nose. .44 mag blew the front and back out, and .223 pierced it like a laser beam. It was a pretty interesting afternoon. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 10:09:48 AM EDT
[#19]
OT a bit, but I overheard a conversation a few months ago between some young Academy employee trying to convince a newbie gun owner trying to protect his family, not to buy a 12ga and instead buy a 22LR because they make "special" armor peircing rounds that will penetrate car doors & engine blocks. Have yet to see any of those "special rounds".
Needless to say, I have since been back to that store and the employee is not there anymore. 
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Posted: 9/30/2012 10:24:31 AM EDT
[#20]
My understanding is that the 22 'myth' is true BUT it's refering to much older generation of vests than any of the posters were testing. Possibly 1930s' and 40s' technology of protection.
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Posted: 9/30/2012 10:50:03 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? I once saw a salesman at a gun show tell this lie to someone looking at a 22. It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. As for 22 mag and 17HMR, the rounds would deform and fragment IMO. The PDW rounds like 5.7 and 4.6 can do it, but only with the AP rounds. You'd need special ammo. Test has been done. A LEO friend tried the 17HMR and wasn't real pleased with what he found. I think the 17Mach2 will also. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 11:41:28 AM EDT
[#22]
I would be utterly shocked if ANY rimfire (.22 or .17) rounds could penetrate any soft armor (IIA or higher).
5.7x28 is in a different league, and even then you need specific ammunition that was sold only briefly to the general public (and hasn' t been for years). If you anticipate the need to deal with soft armor, use a centerfire rifle caliber and then you don't have to worry about any of this hairsplitting. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 12:09:48 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
I would be utterly shocked if ANY rimfire (.22 or .17) rounds could penetrate any soft armor (IIA or higher). A .22 at 1400fps is more likely to penetrate than a 9mm at 1200 fps. A 9mm at 1200 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 40sw at 1000 fps. A 40sw at 1000 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 45 at 850 fps A 45 at 850 fps is more likely to pentrate than a 38spec at 750 fps. Velocity is the most important factor in penetration of "soft" body armor. Much more so than caliber, bullet weight or bullet construction. Level IIA will stop projectiles traveling up to and including 1225FPS. Level II will stop projectiles up to an including 1340FPS Level IIIA will stop projectiles up to and including 1470FPS |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 12:30:47 PM EDT
[#24]
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Posted: 9/30/2012 12:45:51 PM EDT
[#25]
Obviously this test is flawed and inconclusive because the B-A wasn't supported in accordance with NIJ testing guidelines. 
Note the excessive muzzle climb of this range toy. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 4:30:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
I have been told since I got into security and Law Enforcement mostly by old timers that wearing a vest is worthless because a 22LR can go through them without any problem. Since most people have 22LR it does not make sense to wear a vest. Most LEO's don't know very much about firearms or ballistics, and rationalization like this "justifies" not wearing uncomfortable body armor. |
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Posted: 9/30/2012 6:14:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Older, lower level vests did have a hard time stoppign .22 lr. level III stops it. newer level II stops it also. It wont stop a 5.7x28 though
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Posted: 9/30/2012 8:48:54 PM EDT
[#28]
17HMR fired from a rifle will penetrate a level IIIA vest. As mentioned earlier, velocity is what penetrates a vest. The magic number is around 2,100 fps. Anything that fast generally tends to penetrate soft body armor.
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Posted: 9/30/2012 10:25:52 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would be utterly shocked if ANY rimfire (.22 or .17) rounds could penetrate any soft armor (IIA or higher). A .22 at 1400fps is more likely to penetrate than a 9mm at 1200 fps. A 9mm at 1200 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 40sw at 1000 fps. A 40sw at 1000 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 45 at 850 fps A 45 at 850 fps is more likely to pentrate than a 38spec at 750 fps. Velocity is the most important factor in penetration of "soft" body armor. Much more so than caliber, bullet weight or bullet construction. Level IIA will stop projectiles traveling up to and including 1225FPS. Level II will stop projectiles up to an including 1340FPS Level IIIA will stop projectiles up to and including 1470FPS Sectional density plays an enormous roll in penetration as well, it's why a low velocity object like a knife or icepick can penetrate it as well. |
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Posted: 10/1/2012 4:22:21 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? I once saw a salesman at a gun show tell this lie to someone looking at a 22. It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. As for 22 mag and 17HMR, the rounds would deform and fragment IMO. The PDW rounds like 5.7 and 4.6 can do it, but only with the AP rounds. You'd need special ammo. Test has been done. A LEO friend tried the 17HMR and wasn't real pleased with what he found. I think the 17Mach2 will also. Depends on the armor and ammo. I was thinking of lead round nose ammo, but 22wmr FMJ and the pointy stuff like 17 hmr might penetrate out of a barrel long enough to give enough velocity. Really, controlled testing is the only way to go when evaluating this stuff. The thing to remember is that soft armor works for common pistol rounds like 22lr, 9, 40 and 45. Anything out of a rifle needs a plate. Without getting too complicated that's a good rule of thumb. I have to wonder how 357 sig FMJ penetrates. When you get to velocities high enough to penetrate you also run the risk of the projectile seriously deforming or fragmenting. |
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Posted: 10/1/2012 10:50:51 AM EDT
[#31]
I can say that the 17 Mach2 will make a 17 caliber hole going into a groundhog and a 22 caliber hole coming out from 40 yards using a 22 inch barrel on a body shot. I thought the exit hole would have been larger given the velocity.
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Posted: 10/1/2012 11:36:37 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I would be utterly shocked if ANY rimfire (.22 or .17) rounds could penetrate any soft armor (IIA or higher). A .22 at 1400fps is more likely to penetrate than a 9mm at 1200 fps. A 9mm at 1200 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 40sw at 1000 fps. A 40sw at 1000 fps is more likely to penetrate than a 45 at 850 fps A 45 at 850 fps is more likely to pentrate than a 38spec at 750 fps. Velocity is the most important factor in penetration of "soft" body armor. Much more so than caliber, bullet weight or bullet construction. Level IIA will stop projectiles traveling up to and including 1225FPS. Level II will stop projectiles up to an including 1340FPS Level IIIA will stop projectiles up to and including 1470FPS 1. NONE of what you list above will penetrate any commonly available NIJ IIA or better vest. 2. The "ratings" are much more complicated than what you describe, and 99.9% of the time, a IIA vest will stop anything that a IIIA vest will stop - it fails the testing ONLY because of backface deformation. |
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Posted: 10/1/2012 6:38:28 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Is this true do people actually claim .22lr can penetrate soft body armor? I once saw a salesman at a gun show tell this lie to someone looking at a 22. It was all I could do to not laugh out loud. As for 22 mag and 17HMR, the rounds would deform and fragment IMO. The PDW rounds like 5.7 and 4.6 can do it, but only with the AP rounds. You'd need special ammo. This is the correct answer. I have shot body armor (even the old army flack vests) with lots of different weapons to prove to our SRT and cadets’ armor works. (Started wearing a vest in 1977). |
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