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Windwarrior
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Posted: 7/6/2012 6:36:30 PM
Have any of you guys done this? If so, what type of tank did you use... I mainly see plastic tanks for water storage and I am afraid if I try to plumb one in they will not take the pressure.

I am thinking of plumbing in a good sized tank before my hot water tank in the basement so I will always have some water on hand and it will always be fresh.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 6:47:55 PM
This idea has been kicked around here before. My theory is to plumb a new electric hot water tank before your regular tank. The water will always be rotated and fresh. Dont hook up the electric to the tank, and if your regular tank quits working, U can switch the electric to the new unused unit as a back-up.
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sitdwnandhngon
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Posted: 7/6/2012 7:03:39 PM
Can I assume you don't have a well?

I have a 20 gallon water tank that is filled by my well pump, there is a rubber bladder filled with air inside of it that provides it with pressure, when the pressure drops below a certain range the pump in the well kicks on.

They make larger ones, why not get one of those and plumb it before your water heater, and wire the shutoff to a solenoid in the line so you don't over pressurize the system.

When my power goes out we can get just about 10 or 15 gallons from any faucet in the house before the tank loses its pressure.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 8:53:11 PM
[Last Edit: 7/6/2012 8:56:33 PM by Badfish25]
We have a pretty rich customer that lives on top of a large mountain. When the water company loose power at the lift station her water PSI will drop to around 20 PSI, which then will not make it up the hill. To solve this problem we installed 10 of these tanks in series with a check valve before the first tank.

Things to remember. You must have a check valve before the tanks or the air charge can push the water back to the service side. When sizing tanks you need to look at the draw down, just because its a 80 gallon tank dose not mean it will hold 120 gallons of water. The tank I have shown will only hold 60-80 gallons of water with the air charge set to 28psi.

http://www.aquascience.net/amtrol-pressure-tanks/index.cfm?id=509


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Posted: 7/6/2012 9:13:24 PM
Sears used to sell some pretty nice 80 gal pressure tanks. At around 60PSI, you'd get around 52 gallons out of them (IIRC). Keep in mind, though, that city water is commonly around 120-140PSI (in the good parts), and switching to well pressures of 40-60 can be a bit of an adjustment. You also want to make sure that your tank is rated for the pressure you'll be hooking it up to.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 9:34:42 PM
[Last Edit: 7/6/2012 9:36:59 PM by Windwarrior]
Originally Posted By sitdwnandhngon:
Can I assume you don't have a well?

I have a 20 gallon water tank that is filled by my well pump, there is a rubber bladder filled with air inside of it that provides it with pressure, when the pressure drops below a certain range the pump in the well kicks on.

They make larger ones, why not get one of those and plumb it before your water heater, and wire the shutoff to a solenoid in the line so you don't over pressurize the system.

When my power goes out we can get just about 10 or 15 gallons from any faucet in the house before the tank loses its pressure.


Hooking up to city water... live in town. But still want to prep!

ETA tank would not have to operate everything as normal... a spigot to fill drinking containers would be fine. Just want a way to store water without all the smaller containers.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 11:15:21 PM
[Last Edit: 7/6/2012 11:35:43 PM by EXPY37]
Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By sitdwnandhngon:
Can I assume you don't have a well?

I have a 20 gallon water tank that is filled by my well pump, there is a rubber bladder filled with air inside of it that provides it with pressure, when the pressure drops below a certain range the pump in the well kicks on.

They make larger ones, why not get one of those and plumb it before your water heater, and wire the shutoff to a solenoid in the line so you don't over pressurize the system.

When my power goes out we can get just about 10 or 15 gallons from any faucet in the house before the tank loses its pressure.


Hooking up to city water... live in town. But still want to prep!

ETA tank would not have to operate everything as normal... a spigot to fill drinking containers would be fine. Just want a way to store water without all the smaller containers.



Since in most cases the ability to filter water is a primary concern, why not keep it simple and add an elevated blue barrel or two and a simple carbon and ceramic filter system in standard 10" housings.

If you want to get fancier add an RO filter for abt $60. All are quick and easy to install.

A small RV pump running on a 12vdc car battery will get you enough pressure to pump the water from the ceramic into your home system albeit with low volume -and that's good to conserve your water in an emergency.

The RO output would be for drinking and cooking.

RV pumps consume very little current and a car battery would last a good long time.

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Posted: 7/6/2012 11:26:10 PM
One thing for me: I hate to put all my eggs in one basket. Are you going to filter the water before you drink it? Keep it chlorinated? What are your plans if your tank becomes contaminated.

Any tank that is food safe will do. I get blue 55 gal barrels from a local organic farmer that were brand new filled with dairy soap. Perfectly safe (the plastic is rated for drinking, and I am not worried about the minute amount of dairy soap residue. Good for water storage. I keep my water in my well now, and only a few gallons up top for the toilet and shower.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 11:52:31 PM
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.
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Posted: 7/6/2012 11:56:26 PM
No where will you find city water pressure of 120-140.
Hell, fire sprinkler booster pumps in buildings put out about 130 psi, and those are several hundred horsepower engines or electric motors.

City pressure is usually about 45-55 psi.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 1:36:32 AM
[Last Edit: 7/7/2012 1:44:45 AM by Windwarrior]
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!
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Posted: 7/7/2012 2:07:15 AM
[Last Edit: 7/7/2012 2:10:45 AM by EXPY37]
Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!



Wind, you are likely going to be disappointed. The pressure from a bladder tank will fall off in proportion to the water you use.

The bladder tanks don't have that much capacity for the complexity and expense.

IMHO you are better off with a small low power-drain pump like an RV pump, and some inexpensive barrels for storage. Where I'm sitting there are 2 RV pumps, one feeding from the solar tank [search for the topic] that pumps water to a small propane shower heater [$175, ebay] and provides pressurized water for a mod'ed air gun to rinse the toilet bowl. The dynamics of the plumbing make it work like a water MG, pow, pow, pow in rapid fire succession and the crap int the RV toilet doesn't stand a chance.

The other pump feeds from a 40 gallon water tank and its output is buffered by a small bladder tank [hot water expansion tank] and the water passes thru a carbon block filter in a standard 10" housing then to a ceramic candle in a 10" housing and up to the sink and a RO filter from which I'm sipping some product now. [see the RO topic, it was bumped today]

We incorporate a filter for our potable water so we aren't wasting time and water refilling periodically like most who store modest qty's of water and won't take the time or refuse to learn a better way.




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Posted: 7/7/2012 7:50:58 AM
As was mentioned above if you don't like the pressure tank route why not just add another water heater inline?

It will still cycle itself and when your water heater goes bad you can just hook up the backup.

The inside of water heaters though tends to get a little nasty, the last time i drained mine from the bottom a bunch of rust came out with it.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 7:56:56 AM
Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.




Yes mine is in the basement and I can still get water out of the shower head, my tank is small though so you can't get much.

I didn't even consider a check valve though, I just assumed that you would need a shutoff solenoid to prevent blowing the bladder, if your city pressure is similar to the tanks specs you should be fine, definitely do the check valve idea though, so it doesn't drain your tank right back into the main.

I just checked the Lowes website, they have tanks that range from 2 gallons all the way up to 120.

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Posted: 7/7/2012 7:59:13 AM
[Last Edit: 7/7/2012 8:00:09 AM by OverScoped]

Originally Posted By Windwarrior:

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!

no, the pressure tank way is a standard item that goes along with having a well. YOU dont have a well and during normal times, the city water has pressure in it. Having a unheated hot water tank inline with your other hot water tank gives you another 50 or so gallons of fresh and rotated drinking water. It will not have pressure, but you can use the drain valve to get it out, to drink and whatnot. You can also use the water in your exsisting tank, just make sure that you normaly drain it a few times a year, because if you dont, you wont want to drink it. There will be a ton of sludge at the bottom. YOu dont even need to elevate this storage tank, just a few inches like your hot water tank is, probably on some bricks like everyone else.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 9:32:54 AM
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


Indeed. I like the bladder tank idea. When I was a kid, my future father-in-law (neither of us knew it then) was a plumber, and they had a camp on a remote pond. Obviously there was no electricity, and everything including lighting was gas fired. I remember a huge tank in the shed that we'd have to pump up some pressure by hand. I'd say that tank was easily 400 gallons? It would suck in pond water and they would use it for washing dishes and bathing.

In a modern house, a couple big tanks like this would be an excellent way to store water. Think of it as a UPS power supply for your water! Of course, this is not saying that storing water bottles is a bad idea, but a huge tank or cistern that is continually replenished is a really sweet way to stay prepped.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 9:54:33 AM
As mentioned, pressure tanks are a good idea. We live in the country, and have a well. I added a second pressure tank, to add to the "reserve time". Now, our pump doesn't have to kick in as often, and if the power goes out, we have more water available. The big things to remember are to turn off your water softener and RO system (if you have them). Both of these will drain the tanks pretty quickly.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 10:20:52 AM

Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!
Yes, as long as you have a check valve to keep the psi from bleeding back to the citys side. Of course installing a tank like this you would also have a drain valve located at the bottom of the tank.

Some of the reasons I would use a pressure tank instead of a water heater.
#1 Water heater are not for potable water.
#2 A storage tank will last a lot longer than a water heater (even if the blatter fails you can still fill the tank with a air charge).

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Posted: 7/7/2012 10:37:24 AM
Its very common in Latin America to see houses with water storage tanks, everthing from gravity operated fiberglass roof tanks to underground pressurized systems. Storage is commonly around 200 gallons. This is because, while the house may be hooked up to a city wter system, the city pressure is almost non-existent, or is turned on at weird times (midnight) because they supply commerical zones during the day.

If I were building a new house I would look at some way to capture water from the city feed and store using gravity tanks if possible.

I would also look into a cistern catchment system for other watering needs.

Now if I can just get the kids out of school I can sell my city house and get on with these plans...
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Posted: 7/7/2012 10:39:00 AM
Originally Posted By Badfish25:

Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!
Yes, as long as you have a check valve to keep the psi from bleeding back to the citys side. Of course installing a tank like this you would also have a drain valve located at the bottom of the tank.

Some of the reasons I would use a pressure tank instead of a water heater.
#1 Water heater are not for potable water.
#2 A storage tank will last a lot longer than a water heater (even if the blatter fails you can still fill the tank with a air charge).



Is it not tied in with your potable water system????? Or are you referring to the sludge at the bottom that accumulates?
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Posted: 7/7/2012 10:43:26 AM
I am not a plumber, but on a city system, if you use a pressure tank could you over-power the city PSI with your pressure tank and cause the tank not to fill?
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Posted: 7/7/2012 11:21:10 AM
Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!


One other possibility would be to have your city water line run into a large tank, then on the output side buy a pump to pressurize the house water lines. You'd install a shutoff float valve on the input side, similar to a toilet setup. This way you're constantly rotating water. You could do this w/ one large tank or multiple smaller ones.

There are a lot of ways to do what you're talking about. I have a friend who's on a well. He has two 80 gallon pressure tanks setup. I have another friend on city water who has two 60 gallon hot water heaters in line. He won't have pressure in his house, but he'll still have the water stored.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 1:06:43 PM

Originally Posted By Rat_Patrol:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:

Originally Posted By Windwarrior:
Originally Posted By Badfish25:
The nice thing about hooking up a storage tank inline with your water system is that the water will rotate itself, and should chlorinate itself. I would have no problems drinking my city water as I have tested it for the proper chlorine content. Also there is no need to mess with siphoning as the air charge will allow you to just open a faucet to fill up you glass.

As far as the psi goes, most plumbing codes limit your house psi to 80psi. The bladder in these storage tanks are designed to work with a 20 pound differential. IE if your water is at 60psi, you will want to set the air charge no less than 42psi. Any more than a 20 pound differential will put a lot of strain on the rubber bladder.

These type tanks obviously cost more than other way of storing water, but if your looking for a low Maintenance way to store some extra potable water it is hard to beat.


So the tanks you have shown above if installed properly would allow all my faucets to work as normal even if the water supply is interrupted? The air pressure in the tank pushes the water through the system even from a basement? Sorry if I am going over something that has been gone over before but this is a bit new to me.

To those who have asked... of course I will back this up with something. Probably two other somethings!

ETA... Is a pressure tank with a bladder the only way to do this or is there some other kind of tank that could still be hooked up to the plumbing so that water refreshes constantly... I would be OK drawing the water from a tap at the bottom of an elevated tank... just want it to be self refilling after a crisis!
Yes, as long as you have a check valve to keep the psi from bleeding back to the citys side. Of course installing a tank like this you would also have a drain valve located at the bottom of the tank.

Some of the reasons I would use a pressure tank instead of a water heater.
#1 Water heater are not for potable water.
#2 A storage tank will last a lot longer than a water heater (even if the blatter fails you can still fill the tank with a air charge).



Is it not tied in with your potable water system????? Or are you referring to the sludge at the bottom that accumulates?

I guess I should have clarified. I am not saying that water from a heater will kill you, but only that it should be filtered IMO. If you look at any manufacturers instructions they will tell you not to cook or drink water from the hot side. Some say its because the temp of the water allows lead from your brass fixtures to leach into the water others say its because of the tank itself.

I know in a SHTF, I would drink water from my heater if I had no other source, but If I was preplaning a water storage system a water heater would not be my first choice.
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Posted: 7/7/2012 2:48:21 PM
Here is what we did since our well doesn't quite keep up with daytime demand when we have a ton of kids around and the laundry that goes with said kids.

400 gal holding tank is filled by submersible pump (220v), no pressure tank. Water supplied to the house is drawn from tank via a jet pump and pressure tank. There is a float controller (grey box on the wall) and a pump controller (white'ish/blue box) on the wall. Float controls whether there is a need for the control box to function. The control box allows us to set how often and how long we want the submersible pump to operate.



The jet pump is currently setup to run on 220v, but, with the switching of a couple wires, can be setup to run off 110v. Prefect for a smaller generator, and by smaller I mean less than the 25k PTO or 5500 watt Briggs. When we get the smaller genny for our camper, it should be able to power the jet pump just fine.



We also installed a Cycle Stop valve. This gives us constant 55 psi of pressure, even when someone flushes a toilet, while power is supplied to jet pump.



Let me know if you have any questions.

S-1

At the suggestion of HermanSnerd

Shootin stuff is fun...but bein' "the stuff" ain't.
EXPY37
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Posted: 7/7/2012 8:08:41 PM
Originally Posted By safe1:
Here is what we did since our well doesn't quite keep up with daytime demand when we have a ton of kids around and the laundry that goes with said kids.

400 gal holding tank is filled by submersible pump (220v), no pressure tank. Water supplied to the house is drawn from tank via a jet pump and pressure tank. There is a float controller (grey box on the wall) and a pump controller (white'ish/blue box) on the wall. Float controls whether there is a need for the control box to function. The control box allows us to set how often and how long we want the submersible pump to operate.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/bailey123_album/DSC04258.jpg

The jet pump is currently setup to run on 220v, but, with the switching of a couple wires, can be setup to run off 110v. Prefect for a smaller generator, and by smaller I mean less than the 25k PTO or 5500 watt Briggs. When we get the smaller genny for our camper, it should be able to power the jet pump just fine.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/bailey123_album/DSC04259.jpg

We also installed a Cycle Stop valve. This gives us constant 55 psi of pressure, even when someone flushes a toilet, while power is supplied to jet pump.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q176/bailey123_album/DSC04260.jpg

Let me know if you have any questions.

S-1




I have a question, I looked at the mfg'ers video and it is apparent the CSV will dead-head the well pump at near max pump pressure for lower household water flows.

I.e, at lower flow demand from a sink for example, when the faucet flow is less than the well pump capacity, the well pump will be running continuously at a high pressure 'dead-heading' itself.

I would think that would use excessive electricity and premature well pump failure???




c0t0d0s0
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Posted: 7/7/2012 8:28:29 PM
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
I have a question, I looked at the mfg'ers video and it is apparent the CSV will dead-head the well pump at near max pump pressure for lower household water flows.

I.e, at lower flow demand from a sink for example, when the faucet flow is less than the well pump capacity, the well pump will be running continuously at a high pressure 'dead-heading' itself.

I would think that would use excessive electricity and premature well pump failure???






I would expect that to be a non-issue since the pressure tank will supply water to the sink and then the pump would just have to refill the pressure tank every once and a while.
Every old idea will be proposed again with a different name and a different presentation, regardless of whether it works. -RFC1925
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