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carbine85
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Posted: 7/16/2011 10:59:28 AM
I posted a while back that my generator wouldn't start. I just got around to flushing out the tank and carb bowl, added some fresh gas and additive. The generator will start and appears to run at speed with the choke on but it dies when I move it to run. Is this an air leak?
This is the Champion 4500 watt with the Honda knock-off engine.
ColtRifle
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Posted: 7/16/2011 11:03:32 AM
Originally Posted By carbine85:
I posted a while back that my generator wouldn't start. I just got around to flushing out the tank and carb bowl, added some fresh gas and additive. The generator will start and appears to run at speed with the choke on but it dies when I move it to run. Is this an air leak?
This is the Champion 4500 watt with the Honda knock-off engine.



You need to pull the carb and completely clean it. Replace the gaskets and you should be good to go.
coldbore141
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Posted: 7/16/2011 11:26:50 AM
[Last Edit: 7/16/2011 11:27:16 AM by coldbore141]
sounds like tarnished gas has the main jet plugged, Clean the carb real good and try again.
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ham_bone
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Posted: 7/16/2011 11:55:55 AM

sounds like water in carb. good cleaning and run sea foam additive for while. i put a splash in gas cans for all my small engines and boat. ethanol in gas now collects moisture.
anytime gas sits for a while you should consider a stabilizer additive

batjka104
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:25:29 PM
Separate question;

I received my Champion 2000W generator in the mail. The packaging was drenched in gasoline. Went to start it up - can't pull the cord. On advice from the seller I pulled the spark plug and found the cylinder full of fluid. Looks like gas/oil mixture. So some left-over gas from the tank had leaked into the cylinder and the oil tank. Once the plug was removed, the cord pulls very easily and a bit of fluid splashes out with each pull.

What do I do now to return this generator to operating condition?
Skibane
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:42:47 PM
[Last Edit: 7/16/2011 12:49:48 PM by Skibane]
Originally Posted By ColtRifle:
Originally Posted By carbine85:
I posted a while back that my generator wouldn't start. I just got around to flushing out the tank and carb bowl, added some fresh gas and additive. The generator will start and appears to run at speed with the choke on but it dies when I move it to run. Is this an air leak?
This is the Champion 4500 watt with the Honda knock-off engine.



You need to pull the carb and completely clean it. Replace the gaskets and you should be good to go.


Yep.

What the OP is describing is a classic case of carburetus constipatus - Seems like we see a new thread about it almost every month, always with exactly the same symptom: Engine only runs with the choke engaged.

When cleaning the carb, pay particular attention to the jet(s) and other small passages - even a tiny speck of crud in there can cause problems.

Originally Posted By batjka104:
Separate question;

I received my Champion 2000W generator in the mail. The packaging was drenched in gasoline. Went to start it up - can't pull the cord. On advice from the seller I pulled the spark plug and found the cylinder full of fluid. Looks like gas/oil mixture. So some left-over gas from the tank had leaked into the cylinder and the oil tank. Once the plug was removed, the cord pulls very easily and a bit of fluid splashes out with each pull.

What do I do now to return this generator to operating condition?


With the spark plug removed, you could blow most of the oil and gasoline out of the cylinder with an air hose and blower nozzle. (Rotating the engine crankshaft so that the piston is near the top of the cylinder will make it easier to blow out).

Install a new spark plug and fresh oil, make sure that the engine spins freely when you pull the starter cord, and you're ready to fire it up.
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Oldford
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:46:29 PM
Originally Posted By batjka104:
Separate question;

I received my Champion 2000W generator in the mail. The packaging was drenched in gasoline. Went to start it up - can't pull the cord. On advice from the seller I pulled the spark plug and found the cylinder full of fluid. Looks like gas/oil mixture. So some left-over gas from the tank had leaked into the cylinder and the oil tank. Once the plug was removed, the cord pulls very easily and a bit of fluid splashes out with each pull.

What do I do now to return this generator to operating condition?


I'd leave the plug out for a day and let all the wet fuel dry up, then start over with some fresh fuel. I'm surprised they shipped it with fuel in it, most carriers are freaked out by undeclared hazmat stuff (gasoline)

GL, Eric
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fook
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:50:47 PM
Does the carburetor have a electrical solenoid on the bottom of the float bowl?
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carbine85
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Posted: 7/16/2011 12:53:37 PM
Originally Posted By fook:
Does the carburetor have a electrical solenoid on the bottom of the float bowl?


No, just a float bowl with a drain.

Do you guys think Seafoam will clean it while it's running or do I have to dismantle the carb?
ColtRifle
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Posted: 7/16/2011 1:43:34 PM
Originally Posted By carbine85:
Originally Posted By fook:
Does the carburetor have a electrical solenoid on the bottom of the float bowl?


No, just a float bowl with a drain.

Do you guys think Seafoam will clean it while it's running or do I have to dismantle the carb?




Seafoam is ok stuff but it won't solve a problem like this. You might be able to pull the float bowel and spray cleaner up the main jet. However, I'd pull it and completely clean it.
EXPY37
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Posted: 7/16/2011 3:19:16 PM
Originally Posted By carbine85:
Originally Posted By fook:
Does the carburetor have a electrical solenoid on the bottom of the float bowl?


No, just a float bowl with a drain.

Do you guys think Seafoam will clean it while it's running or do I have to dismantle the carb?



It might but the problem also might come back at a critical time when you need to use the genny.

Learning how to do simple maintenance now under no pressure will make you a stronger and more capable prepper for when the chips are down later.

Cleaning the carb on a small genny is pretty simple stuff to learn and do and shouldn't taker much time.

carbine85
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Posted: 7/16/2011 3:41:56 PM
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By carbine85:
Originally Posted By fook:
Does the carburetor have a electrical solenoid on the bottom of the float bowl?


No, just a float bowl with a drain.

Do you guys think Seafoam will clean it while it's running or do I have to dismantle the carb?



It might but the problem also might come back at a critical time when you need to use the genny.

Learning how to do simple maintenance now under no pressure will make you a stronger and more capable prepper for when the chips are down later.

Cleaning the carb on a small genny is pretty simple stuff to learn and do and shouldn't taker much time.



Roger that. I get tired of messing around with this shit. I guess now is as good time as any.
Spectre210
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Posted: 7/16/2011 3:54:15 PM
[Last Edit: 7/17/2011 5:58:03 AM by Spectre210]
carburetus constipatus


While an EMT II, I rather enjoyed Med Terminology 1A and 1B. A&P soon followed (2nd in both my EMT classes and had a perfect 4.0 GPA when I had enough of higher (read that "LIberal") education)...I spent 2 years of what some would refer to as a "life" working an MICU in a not so warm and fuzzy area of SoCal, with AN EMT III (Paramedic) who thought he was god. I put in my time and went home. I did this for 72 to96 hours per week between my job with Goodhew and time spent in the ER at county general and Riverside community.

Fast forward to December 2009. I had changed professions years earlier and had been an electrical trainer and lead technician (troubleshooting and repair) for companies such as Caterpillar (16 years), Mitsubishi and Raymond Corporation for 26 years. During all these years, I learned a lot. I trained apprentice mechanics to Master mechanic over the course of a 12 year program, and also released lots more from the profession altogether simply for lack of aptitude.

Now here's the point...the meat of the subject if you will. Through both my professional careers, I've never heard the term carburetus constipatus ; yet it is a condition which undoubtedly exists. In humans, it takes place generally in the small intestine, where a blockage or obstruction of any other type generally results in the (by now partially broken down...as in "well, that sure went to shit in a hurry) fuel being ejected violently from the fill port (the mouth, for those of you who are still reading).

In a naturally aspirated engine, thankfully the situation doesn't get that messy. (NOTE: While you may not need it, purchase a rebuild kit for the carb from the OEM, and make sure it includes a new needle valve and float. I have 1/2 dozen or so in my tool box that I've not needed, BUT...if you need it, there is no substitute.) As Ski explained; Remove and completely disassemble your carburetor. Yes...into the smallest pieces and parts. If you don't think you can do this, well, in most cases you're wrong! If need be, break out the digital camera and take good, high resolution photos of each step in the disassembly process. Be prepared for maybe a check ball, or needle valve to unexpectedly fall out onto the work-bench during disassembly. If you're taking your time, and working carefully, it won't be hard to figure out where they came from. Now, most needle valve seats in these carburetors (more appropriately termed a "mixer," although no one does) are removable. Remove it.

Now that you have it scattered into the smallest components possible, thoroughly clean the large components, inside and out, until there is not the slightest hint of anything other than clean, bare metal present (remember...inside AND out). Next, thoroughly clean the smallest components (ALL of them) and place them to one side. Now here is the part, which if you don't do it, may well result in completing this whole procedure over again. Thoroughly clean all of the air bleed ports and fuel passages with carb cleaner with an extension tube attached (the tube won't fit into some passages, but will make a tight seal against the surface around the passage or port) so as to force the cleaner through with more pressure. Then use an appropriately sized wire (sometimes a set of inexpensive wire gauges from Harbor Freight is the best tool for the job, other times, pick an appropriately sized strand from stranded automotive wire to use for the job. In either case, be very sure NOT to break off a piece of the wire in a port or passage.

Once the afformentioned tasks are accomplished, clean the entire carburetor again, inside and out, with carb cleaner (including ALL ports and passages, with the ext tube attached). Reassemble with new float, needle valve and gaskets (DON"T use sealer of any type on the gaskets. Rely on proper fastener torque to create and maintain a proper seal.), install on your engine and fire it up!

All this assumes you've already cleaned the tank, screens, fuel hardlines and hoses, and replaced any filters.

Good luck!
Greg

ETA: I hereby nominate Ski as the official keeper of the ARFCOM dictionary of proprietary terms and phrases!
buckmaw
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Posted: 7/16/2011 4:42:40 PM
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.
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EXPY37
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Posted: 7/16/2011 9:13:05 PM
Originally Posted By buckmaw:
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.



If it isn't getting enough fuel, why does the genny run when choked???

Powerkicker
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Posted: 7/16/2011 10:13:30 PM
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By buckmaw:
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.



If it isn't getting enough fuel, why does the genny run when choked???




Doesn't the choke make the mixture richer in fuel and leaner in air?

I have a leaf blower doing this. Guess I need to rebuild the carb. Where do you get gaskets for off-branded power tools?
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Spectre210
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Posted: 7/17/2011 12:42:04 AM
It's easiest sometimes to check the thickness of the gasket and just stop by the local NAPA and get a few sheets, or a roll of gasket material. Sometimes you'll find it in a variety pack of sheets made of different materials (paper of different thickness, impregnated paper, rubber, cork, etc...). I keep several variety packs as well as rolls of material on hand.

Buy a Gasket Hammer at Sears or Napa (NAPA is hit and miss for small specialty tools), and a good quality Xacto knife kit (metal handle only) and you'll never have to ask where to get gaskets again!
Spectre210
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Posted: 7/17/2011 12:59:29 AM
Originally Posted By Powerkicker:
Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By buckmaw:
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.



If it isn't getting enough fuel, why does the genny run when choked???




Doesn't the choke make the mixture richer in fuel and leaner in air?

I have a leaf blower doing this. Guess I need to rebuild the carb. Where do you get gaskets for off-branded power tools?


Almost correct; you have the right concept. The choke restricts the air only. If the system isn't getting enough fuel to run at open throttle, the mixture is too lean. When you apply the choke, it restricts the air volume, giving you a higher fuel to air ratio without ever changing the fuel available. A system in this condition (all other subsystems operating normally) can be made to run to full governed speed simply by the judicious application of starting fluid, brake parts cleaner, or even penetrating oil at the air intake (filter removed).

In reply to your leaf blower statement, if it's over a couple of years old you likely do need to go through the mixer (carburetor). Keep in mind though, and be sure to check for leaky carb/intake gaskets, loose flange nuts, and sloppy butterfly shaft. Excessive air at places other than the intake will give you symptoms so similar to a malfunctioning/ gummed up carburetor only an experienced mechanic can tell the difference.
fixer
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Posted: 7/17/2011 1:22:58 AM
on some carbs the "choke" is actually an enrichener. basically it adds gas instead of restricting air.

modern fuel seems to varnins up more easily than it did back in the day. seems to be the result of the ethanol blend stuff.

so for small motors, learn to tear the carb apart and feed it some carb cleaner on occasion to remove any deposits. Seafoam is good stuff, but even the cheap stuff from WM will work, it just takes longer.

if a motor is still runningm,you can add a heavy dose of cleaner to the fuel and see if that will clear things up.

sometimes the intake filter in the tank goes missing and some petcocks have sleector gaskets that can break down, disintegrate and find their way into the carb.. uf that happens, no amount of carb cleaner will dissolve it. yoiu'll need to at least remove the float bowl and blast it out with an extensioon nozzle aimed at the jet. inline fuel filters are a good idea
buckmaw
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Posted: 7/17/2011 1:49:41 AM

Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By buckmaw:
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.



If it isn't getting enough fuel, why does the genny run when choked???


Because of the restricted filter, the normal vacuum that would suck the fuel up is not sufficient and only when the choke is closed, is there enough to suck the fuel through the restricted filter.
I know it sounds weird, I swore I had a air leak at first, but this is the problem.



"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
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Posted: 7/17/2011 2:52:27 AM
As noted, 99 times out of a 100 it is the main jet being partially clogged..

Easy to disassemble clean and replace.
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Spectre210
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Posted: 7/17/2011 5:38:29 AM
Originally Posted By fixer:
on some carbs the "choke" is actually an enrichener. basically it adds gas instead of restricting air. On a Honda/ Honda clone, you will find a choke. An "enrichener" is basically an extra idle bleed circuit that is manually activated by the operator. If there is a choke plate at the air inlet, and you use a lever to open and close the plate at the air inlet; you are dealing with a choke. A choke works by decreasing the amount of air (thus, the oxygen) available in the air/fue mixture, resulting in a more easily ignited (richer) mixture. Some small engines (including some motorcycles) also have a manual primer, allowing the initial mixture to be "enrichened" prior to starting. While all serve their intended purpose, it is well to keep sight of what the OP likely has, as the systems function quite differently in theory and in practice.

BTW; the "filters" that are mentioned in another post are actually strainers. They serve a similar, but different purpose (They are there to stop the large stuff, the filter is rated in microns, and stops the small stuff). Most fuel shut off valves on Honda small engine systems (especially generators) will have a strainer in the shutoff valve also.


modern fuel seems to varnins up more easily than it did back in the day. That is a fact!! seems to be the result of the ethanol blend stuff.

so for small motors, learn to tear the carb apart and feed it some carb cleaner on occasion to remove any deposits.This. Learning to work on what you have is important, and will only become more so. Get to know your small engine fuel and ignition systems inside out, especially the carburetors). Seafoam is good stuff, but even the cheap stuff from WM will work, it just takes longer.

if a motor is still runningm,you can add a heavy dose of cleaner to the fuel and see if that will clear things up.

sometimes the intake filter in the tank goes missing and some petcocks have sleector gaskets that can break down, disintegrate and find their way into the carb.. uf that happens, no amount of carb cleaner will dissolve it. yoiu'll need to at least remove the float bowl and blast it out with an extensioon nozzle aimed at the jet. inline fuel filters are a good idea


Spectre210
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Posted: 7/17/2011 5:52:20 AM
Originally Posted By buckmaw:

Originally Posted By EXPY37:
Originally Posted By buckmaw:
I HATE TO POST IN CAPS BUT THIS IS THE PROBLEM.

The Chinese Honda copy engine is not getting enough fuel because there is a needle fuel filter in the output spout of the fuel tank or inline.

Simply clean the filter and all will be good. It will be a fine mesh screen.

I had 2 honda mowers that only ran on choke and I swear I disassembled each carburetor 3 times.

I found the filter by accident and cleaned them.

It fixed both mowers.

Its the same carb setup as that chinese honda.



If it isn't getting enough fuel, why does the genny run when choked???


Because of the restricted filter, the normal vacuum that would suck the fuel up is not sufficient and only when the choke is closed, is there enough to suck the fuel through the restricted filter.
I know it sounds weird, I swore I had a air leak at first, but this is the problem. Not quite. What is happening is that closing the choke plate restricts the airflow to provide an acceptable mixture based on the fuel that the idle circuit can provide. If you left the choke open, and started the engine with starting fluid, you could run it up to full speed if you metered the starting fluid with bursts. It isn't your idle circuit that you have a problem with. As stated; it is the power circuit (main jet).





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Posted: 7/17/2011 10:37:04 AM
[Last Edit: 7/17/2011 10:39:44 AM by ColtRifle]
Pull the gas line off the carb. If it flows freely, you have a carb problem. If it doesn't flow freely, you have a fuel supply to the carb problem.

I'll put my money on a dirty carb. A restricted fuel line will usually result in an engine that runs well until the fuel restriction becomes too much. It then stalls out.

A dirty carb WILL cause the exact problem that the OP described.

Some people will spend a lot of time trying to use something like Seafoam when what they really need to do is to take 30 mins to remove, disassemble, clean, reassemble, and install the carb. Cleaning a carb is extremely easy. If you search around, you can find a good post that someone made about how to clean a carb complete with pics.
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Posted: 7/17/2011 10:50:26 AM
Change the spark plug.

Trust me.
carbine85
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Posted: 7/17/2011 11:53:58 AM
I got it running. The carb was clean. The bolts holding the carb weren't very tight. I think she was sucking air. That might explain why it only ran with the choke on.
I'm going to drain the fuel, keep some Seafoam on hand get an extra plug.
Thanks for help guys.