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Posted: 11/15/2009 7:25:31 AM EDT
Yamaha recently came out with a little bit smaller inverter based generator to compete with the legendary Honda 2000.

Does anyone have the new Yamaha yet? Or does anyone know of tests or comparisons? I'm looking to buy one this week.

Link Posted: 11/15/2009 7:51:02 AM EDT
Went to the Yamaha web site. Looks like the Yamaha is a direct comparison to the Honda 2000 companion.

Inquiring minds want to know:

How difficult is regular maintenance?

Does the starter rope get chewed by vibration?

Is it possible to assemble an external fuel tank system like can be done with the Honda?
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 8:43:22 AM EDT
I closely looked at both, ended up with Yamaha because they have a better adaptation configuration to Tri-fuel (better mounted regulator asm). The Honda has it mounted on the loose side wall panel.



Link Posted: 11/15/2009 9:05:10 AM EDT
Very nice MR_JOSHUA!

A couple questions, if you don't mind.

Was the Tri-fuel configuration the only advantage of the Yamaha, or were there other things you found?

By Tri-fuel I assume it takes gasoline, natural gas, and propane, is that correct? Usually an engine would have to be diesel in order to accept NG or propane, no?

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 9:12:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MR_JOSHUA:
I closely looked at both, ended up with Yamaha because they have a better adaptation configuration to Tri-fuel (better mounted regulator asm).


Please explain this tri-fuel advantage ...
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 9:28:21 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CurrentHz:
Very nice MR_JOSHUA!

snip...
By Tri-fuel I assume it takes gasoline, natural gas, and propane, is that correct? Usually an engine would have to be diesel in order to accept NG or propane, no?

Thanks!


Gasoline engines can and are converted to operate on propane. I do not know of a conversion of diesel to propane, I understood propane to be used as a performance booster and charge cooler in high performance diesels, but that such a diesel used both fuels not just the propane.

Link Posted: 11/15/2009 9:29:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By CurrentHz:
Very nice MR_JOSHUA!

A couple questions, if you don't mind.

Was the Tri-fuel configuration the only advantage of the Yamaha, or were there other things you found?

By Tri-fuel I assume it takes gasoline, natural gas, and propane, is that correct? Usually an engine would have to be diesel in order to accept NG or propane, no?

Thanks!


no, it does not need to be diesel. any internal combustion engine can run on NG or propane.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 10:15:13 AM EDT
Yamaha parts are a little easier to get in the aftermarket. Honda doesn't publish parts diagrams or prices online.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 1:53:26 PM EDT
One thing about the Honda 2000 is that it has a proven track record .
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 2:07:01 PM EDT
I wouldn't call Yamaha a no name department store brand though.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 2:37:50 PM EDT
The mounting of the regulator on the Honda does not have to be mounted to the removable cover. That is the method that the people that sell the kit use. I think it was just a quick & easy method used so no bracket fabrication is needed. I always thought that mounting the regulator on the access cover was poorly thought out.I have seen the regulator mounted on the other side with a L shaped bracket that seemed to be attached to the the base mount bushings. I have seen several with a plastic bracket for the regulator and attached to the solid side of the Honda with velcro. I spent two summers prospecting and camping with a guy that had one of the velcro mounted conversions and there were no problems. Both owners I talked to said the velcro mount conversion was built by their RV dealers in Wash. or Oregon.

I'm building a bracket for mine from a aluminum L shaped plate I found in a friends garage & will attach it underneath to all four mounting feet. Using that plate will put the regulator on the opposite side with a much sturdier mount ,unlike the 2 screws in the tri fuel kit. I want to put a couple extra holes on the bracket for attaching a lock so I can chain it up if needed.

If Yamaha came out with a factory tri fuel model that would be a major plus for buying one. With the extra product liability I doubt we will ever see one.

Red
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 3:20:54 PM EDT
Does the Yamaha use a parallel kit? If the Yamaha does not I would still go Honda. My 2 EU2000i's are one 4kw peak plant the Yamaha's would not be.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 4:19:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
Does the Yamaha use a parallel kit? If the Yamaha does not I would still go Honda. My 2 EU2000i's are one 4kw peak plant the Yamaha's would not be.


First reply in this thread

Built in like a EU2000 companion
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 4:27:33 PM EDT
How quiet is it compared to the Honda ?
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 4:45:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By XM21Nick:
How quiet is it compared to the Honda ?


Yamaha EF2000iS Inverter Generator, Very quiet 51~61 decibels, 2000 watt maximum output, 1600 watt rated continuous output, Engine displacement 79cc, Smart Throttle (engine speed matches load) to reduce gasoline consumption, extend running time between refueling and reduce noise and engine wear (EF-2000IS EF 2000IS EF2000I EF2000)




* 2000 watts (16.7 A) of Honda Inverter 120V AC Power
* Super quiet - 53 to 59 dB(A)


pretty much spot on which is why its a competitor for the EU2000.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 4:48:28 PM EDT

just don't forget that when sizing a tri-fuel generator, the power output is not constant across the three fuels. typically, a gasoline generator with a conversion kit will produce only about 80-90% of it's rated output when run on propane, and only about 70-80% of it's rated output when run on natural gas.

this is not a defect with any specific generator design; it simply reflects the different energies contained in the fuel itself.

ar-jedi
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 5:50:04 PM EDT

Originally Posted By RedWoods:


If Yamaha came out with a factory tri fuel model that would be a major plus for buying one. With the extra product liability I doubt we will ever see one.

Red


I have the exact same generator as Mr . Joshua, With that Tri-fuel conversion you keep your factory manufacturer warranty, which was why I went with the Yamaha.
Link Posted: 11/15/2009 7:18:58 PM EDT
Where does it say the Propane Kits will void the Honda warranty ???
Link Posted: 11/16/2009 4:43:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PA22-400:
Originally Posted By DanishM1Garand:
Does the Yamaha use a parallel kit? If the Yamaha does not I would still go Honda. My 2 EU2000i's are one 4kw peak plant the Yamaha's would not be.


First reply in this thread

Built in like a EU2000 companion


I was thinking about what you said.

All of the Honda 2000's have the ability to be paralleled with an inexpensive set of jumpers. There is also the option to buy a much more expensive parallel kit that has a 30A twistlock receptacle on it, mainly for use in RVing. The Companion simply adds a 30A twistlock receptacle to the generator itself so you could use the simple jumpers.

So in the end, the Yamaha is comparable to the base model Honda EU2000, both of them could be paralleled. The Companion simply makes use of an RVing receptacle.


Expensive kit which gives you the RV receptacle (note: thie kit is unnecessary if one of them is the Companion model, if so you could use the second kit listed below):

http://www.hayesequipment.com/images/newEUkit_med.jpg


Inexpensive kit which just pairs them up for normal use (which is the same design for the Honda and the Yamaha):

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/images/models/features/ggpcable.xml.jpg
Link Posted: 11/16/2009 4:08:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/16/2009 4:09:30 PM EDT by JABS]

Originally Posted By ToddWW:
Where does it say the Propane Kits will void the Honda warranty ???

Sorry , I know one of the places I looked at for Tri-Fuel Honda's stated that they would honor the Warranty but it would need to go to them to be repaired , I can take my Yamaha to my local dealer which was a huge plus for me.

I've only read on other forums that Tri-fuels conversions would void the Honda warranty. I could be mistaken.
Link Posted: 11/17/2009 1:39:32 AM EDT
side by side test in a mag i get in the mail said ,shwoed that they were pretty much on level with each other..
Link Posted: 11/17/2009 4:00:19 AM EDT
What's the sale price from Wise Sales on the Yamaha and the Honda ?
Link Posted: 11/17/2009 4:07:51 AM EDT
tag for more info
Link Posted: 11/17/2009 4:53:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By XM21Nick:
What's the sale price from Wise Sales on the Yamaha and the Honda ?


I think I payed $864 to my door (FEDEX) for my Honda.
-and I bought a second EU2000i local/used (low time -like new) for $500
Link Posted: 12/3/2009 8:03:05 AM EDT
889 +15 insurance to the door

groupie buy?
Link Posted: 12/3/2009 4:19:49 PM EDT
Depends - Can we get it with a BFL engraved on the side?
Link Posted: 12/3/2009 5:13:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2009 5:14:53 PM EDT by Hawk_308]
Sound wise its close , in eco mod the honda is quieter but in normal operation the yam is . Per a online vs review ... looking for link now.... brb
ETA
Link
http://www.campinglife.com/output.cfm?id=1112113
Link Posted: 12/3/2009 5:16:06 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:

just don't forget that when sizing a tri-fuel generator, the power output is not constant across the three fuels. typically, a gasoline generator with a conversion kit will produce only about 80-90% of it's rated output when run on propane, and only about 70-80% of it's rated output when run on natural gas.

this is not a defect with any specific generator design; it simply reflects the different energies contained in the fuel itself.

ar-jedi


This is not always true, especially for a smaller inverter generator. A traditional generator head is spun by the attached motor. If the motor has less power because of fuel type the "torque" spinning the gen head will be less causing less output and possibly a stall exactly like you stated. But, since a inverter gen produces power through a different method (see below), as long as the motor is sized big enough in relation to their alternators output (and both the small Honda and Yamaha are) the power output from the inverter will be the same across fuel types because it is a function of electronics not mechanical power generation.

I cut and pasted this explanation which explains it better than I can:
"The deal with inverter generators is that the engine can run variable speed, and there are no brushes. Powerful Neodymium magnets make this possible, you can make a pretty efficient little alternator pretty small, but you can't control the output voltage, so it is difficult to use the output directly. So to solve this they make it a 3 phase alternator which makes really good DC power when rectified and then they have to make that DC back into AC, requiring the inverter."
Link Posted: 12/3/2009 8:17:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By autumnsong:
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
just don't forget that when sizing a tri-fuel generator, the power output is not constant across the three fuels. typically, a gasoline generator with a conversion kit will produce only about 80-90% of it's rated output when run on propane, and only about 70-80% of it's rated output when run on natural gas.
this is not a defect with any specific generator design; it simply reflects the different energies contained in the fuel itself


This is not always true, especially for a smaller inverter generator. A traditional generator head is spun by the attached motor. If the motor has less power because of fuel type the "torque" spinning the gen head will be less causing less output and possibly a stall exactly like you stated. But, since a inverter gen produces power through a different method (see below), as long as the motor is sized big enough in relation to their alternators output (and both the small Honda and Yamaha are) the power output from the inverter will be the same across fuel types because it is a function of electronics not mechanical power generation.

it has nothing to do with the method of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. whether you choose to do it using a traditional generator head or via back-to-back alternator/inverter, the electrical output power of the generator is simply the mechanical input power to the conversion process, minus the conversion losses.

compared to operation on gasoline, the mechanical output power of a given displacement engine is reduced when operated on propane and further reduced when operated on natural gas.

again, this has nothing to do with how the mechanical to electrical conversion is implemented. it has everything to do with the lower energy content of propane (74%) and natural gas (66%) in comparison to gasoline.

ar-jedi

Link Posted: 12/4/2009 6:29:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2009 6:55:04 AM EDT by autumnsong]
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
Originally Posted By autumnsong:
Originally Posted By ar-jedi:
just don't forget that when sizing a tri-fuel generator, the power output is not constant across the three fuels. typically, a gasoline generator with a conversion kit will produce only about 80-90% of it's rated output when run on propane, and only about 70-80% of it's rated output when run on natural gas.
this is not a defect with any specific generator design; it simply reflects the different energies contained in the fuel itself


This is not always true, especially for a smaller inverter generator. A traditional generator head is spun by the attached motor. If the motor has less power because of fuel type the "torque" spinning the gen head will be less causing less output and possibly a stall exactly like you stated. But, since a inverter gen produces power through a different method (see below), as long as the motor is sized big enough in relation to their alternators output (and both the small Honda and Yamaha are) the power output from the inverter will be the same across fuel types because it is a function of electronics not mechanical power generation.

it has nothing to do with the method of converting mechanical energy to electrical energy. whether you choose to do it using a traditional generator head or via back-to-back alternator/inverter, the electrical output power of the generator is simply the mechanical input power to the conversion process, minus the conversion losses.

compared to operation on gasoline, the mechanical output power of a given displacement engine is reduced when operated on propane and further reduced when operated on natural gas.

again, this has nothing to do with how the mechanical to electrical conversion is implemented. it has everything to do with the lower energy content of propane (74%) and natural gas (66%) in comparison to gasoline.

ar-jedi



It has everything to do with how the mechanical to electrical conversion is made. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. As you say, a motor run on propane will produce less energy than the same motor run on gasoline. It will need more propane to do the same amount of work than gasoline. That is a given. The way I interpreted your post was that the electrical power would be less also. Not always true on an inverter. The max power output is dictated by the size of the inverter if the engine/alternator is capable of providing enough juice to the inverter. The engine in the small Yamaha and Honda is slightly oversized for the needs of the system so even if the engine is putting out slightly less power mechanically enough electrical energy from the alternator is getting to the inverter that it makes no difference to the inverter. That is why they can use the same motor on different models and sizes of inverter gennys as long as they are close. (i.e. 2400watt vs. 3000watt).
Think about it, If I put a 500 watt inverter attached to a 5 HP and a 50HP motor/alternator setup, the inverter would only produce 500 watts on either motor even though the huge HP/mechanical energy difference. It wouldn't matter if that 50HP motor was run on gas, propane, or nat gas the inverter would put out 500 watts. It wouldn't put out less just because I ran a different fuel. And the 500 watt inverter wouldn't magically become a 10000 watt inverter because it was attached to a bigger motor. Would the 50HP motor use more propane? Yup. Would it produce less watts as an end result? Nope.

Edited to clarify: Both the Yamaha inverter 2400 and 3000 watt generators use the same 5.5HP 171cc motor. If the electrical power generation from the inverter was limited by the motors HP output there would not be 2 different size generators.

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