Honda EU2000i 240V

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Honda EU2000i 240V

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:12:57 AM EDT

Just testing the interest of a parallel kit that will allow you to generate 240v from any of the smaller EU series Honda generators. My buddy is a electrical engineer who has worked with Honda since the EU series inception. We were talking and he told me that he had developed (years ago) a way to parallel as many of these small generators as you can afford. He had developed a unit for the Gov. that allowed them to setup a 10KW generator that weighed less than 250lbs and was totally man-portable. He's thinking of getting this off the ground in a serious way. The cool thing about this thing is that it is a small as any other parallel kit you've ever seen, but has some serious electronics to control the gens.

So far we've thought about the possibilities that include running well-water pumps, powering both legs of the fuse panel (the obvious), welders, a/c units, etc. BTW, the EU3000is can generate about 23 watts (2 units of course) and the smaller EU1000is can generate 7.5 amps (again 2 units). The more genny's you add, the more wattage and amperage. Since so many of us own these guys and recognize there amazing capabilities, power, quietness, and longevity, I was blown away when he shared this info with me.

I couldn't think of a better group to get a solid opinion from that the SF crew. So what do you think?

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:46:38 AM EDT

[#1]

Here's my dream. Intertied inverter generators with no limit to the number of generators
in the system, and have them be able to manage when generators drop out of the system
(fuel loss or failure). I'd be willing to pay up to an additional hundred bucks or so per for
the capability. 240v capability, of course. I know it's all off-the shelf stuff now with
only a little engineering to fit the form factor. Add in the capability to interface with other
inverter-battery systems and you'd have one hell of a decent system.

Ahhh, pipe dreams.

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:46:47 AM EDT

[#2]

I've already been thinking about doing this...
I've got an EE background (no degree, but have worked as an EE for years in an R&D environment) and think it would be easy to do.
If your buddy has already done this -hook us up with the kit!

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:59:36 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
Here's my dream. Intertied inverter generators with no limit to the number of generators
in the system, and have them be able to manage when generators drop out of the system
(fuel loss or failure). I'd be willing to pay up to an additional hundred bucks or so per for
the capability. 240v capability, of course. I know it's all off-the shelf stuff now with
only a little engineering to fit the form factor. Add in the capability to interface with other
inverter-battery systems and you'd have one hell of a decent system.

Ahhh, pipe dreams.

The kit you dream of is already doable. That is the beauty of the setup my buddy had done. You can add AS MANY AS YOU WANT to have them all tied in together.

Posted: 10/29/2009 6:02:08 AM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:
I've already been thinking about doing this...
I've got an EE background (no degree, but have worked as an EE for years in an R&D environment) and think it would be easy to do.
If your buddy has already done this -hook us up with the kit!

We need at least 10 people to get the kits manufactured at a reasonable cost. The more the better/cheaper. Ten units will get us enough interest to get this thing off the ground. The kits for 2 eu2000's or 2 eu1000's or 2 eu3000's will be $250. The more we make on the first run, the cheaper it will be. It will take about 30 days to get the kits out.

Posted: 10/29/2009 6:05:05 AM EDT

[#5]

Just so everyone knows, Honda has done a great job on designing these little generators. According to my buddy, the possibilities are nearly endless––INCLUDING coupling non-honda eu generators to other generators to pool power levels. Again, he's worked extensively on these for the Gov. I almost pee'd my pants when he told me that this was do-able. I'm hoping to make this happen.

Posted: 10/29/2009 8:08:06 AM EDT

[#6]

Can they deal dynamically with dropouts? If so, when is he going to market it?

Inquiring minds and all that...

Posted: 10/29/2009 11:12:42 AM EDT

[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I've already been thinking about doing this...
I've got an EE background (no degree, but have worked as an EE for years in an R&D environment) and think it would be easy to do.
If your buddy has already done this -hook us up with the kit!

We need at least 10 people to get the kits manufactured at a reasonable cost. The more the better/cheaper. Ten units will get us enough interest to get this thing off the ground. The kits for 2 eu2000's or 2 eu1000's or 2 eu3000's will be $250. The more we make on the first run, the cheaper it will be. It will take about 30 days to get the kits out.

I'm in for one, maybe two and I have a buddy that will most likely take one.

Grove

Posted: 10/29/2009 12:26:46 PM EDT

[#8]

If it works I have cash now.

I have a couple 2k and buddies have a few- this would be outstanding for a hunting trip to the cabin, or just run the 220 stuff around my house.

Posted: 10/29/2009 1:01:15 PM EDT

[#9]

I am interested in the 120/240 volt split phase parallel operation conversion "kit"
Before I purchase one , I need to know if it is completely EXTERNAL to the Honda generator, and therefore exchangeable between identical units, OR if it involves any internal connection or modifications.
Please keep us posted on progress, both engineering AND marketing.
I am sure you will be able to sell a bunch of units on the civilian market.

Posted: 10/29/2009 1:38:25 PM EDT

[#10]

Even though I don't own a EU2000 I am interested.

ETA: When you connect 2 2000watt gennys together does is double the wattage?

Posted: 10/29/2009 1:53:28 PM EDT

[#11]

As the Honda stands now, all you have to do to parallel two together is to connect the special connectors together [in parallel between 2 gennys].

The connectors look like they fit test lead plugs and frankly, the kit Honda sells is a HUGE profit center for them, as the kit they sell only costs a few $$ to make.

There's lots of sites on the web showing how to make your own. Look at a schematic of a Honda and you'll see that the special jacks are simply connected to the 110V outlets!! Don't even need to use the jacks, just a special extension cord with two male plugs.

Now please don't get all scardy and riled abt this, just don't do it and buy the Honda kit instead, much safer.

Also, I've never understood how those little connectors and wires can handle ~15 amps at 110VAC reliably, but they apparently do.

Posted: 10/29/2009 3:10:07 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
As the Honda stands now, all you have to do to parallel two together is to connect the special connectors together [in parallel between 2 gennys].

The connectors look like they fit test lead plugs and frankly, the kit Honda sells is a HUGE profit center for them, as the kit they sell only costs a few $$ to make.

There's lots of sites on the web showing how to make your own. Look at a schematic of a Honda and you'll see that the special jacks are simply connected to the 110V outlets!! Don't even need to use the jacks, just a special extension cord with two male plugs.

Now please don't get all scardy and riled abt this, just don't do it and buy the Honda kit instead, much safer.

Also, I've never understood how those little connectors and wires can handle ~15 amps at 110VAC reliably, but they apparently do.

What the OP is talking about is generating 220 volts. You can't do this simply by connectine the 2 gennys together. The 2 110 legs have to be phased properly

Posted: 10/29/2009 3:35:50 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Just testing the interest of a parallel kit that will allow you to generate 240v from any of the smaller EU series Honda generators. My buddy is a electrical engineer who has worked with Honda since the EU series inception. We were talking and he told me that he had developed (years ago) a way to parallel as many of these small generators as you can afford. He had developed a unit for the Gov. that allowed them to setup a 10KW generator that weighed less than 250lbs and was totally man-portable. He's thinking of getting this off the ground in a serious way. The cool thing about this thing is that it is a small as any other parallel kit you've ever seen, but has some serious electronics to control the gens.

So far we've thought about the possibilities that include running well-water pumps, powering both legs of the fuse panel (the obvious), welders, a/c units, etc. BTW, the EU3000is can generate about 23 watts (2 units of course) and the smaller EU1000is can generate 7.5 amps (again 2 units). The more genny's you add, the more wattage and amperage. Since so many of us own these guys and recognize there amazing capabilities, power, quietness, and longevity, I was blown away when he shared this info with me.

I couldn't think of a better group to get a solid opinion from that the SF crew. So what do you think?

Was this DARPA, DoD, or DHS funded? Who owns the intellectual property for the device? Will the device have ITAR issues?

I work for a DoD contractor and am familiar with how little things can fall under ITAR simply because of who wrote the check for the R&D. In addition, seemingly simple things can be considered government use only and can get someone in a lot of trouble for owning.

I'm interested but I need to know it's not riddled with IP or government issues.

Posted: 10/29/2009 3:48:16 PM EDT

[#14]

I'd be in for one for the eu2000

Posted: 10/29/2009 3:56:56 PM EDT

[#15]

Are you sure he knows what he is talking about? He does (I hope) know the requirements for the phase relationship between 240 V ac, , it is not just 120 v ac x2

I would like a picture from an oscilloscope or other verification before I spend money on this.

My understanding is that this would require another winding to do this correctly.

Posted: 10/29/2009 4:36:30 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
I am interested in the 120/240 volt split phase parallel operation conversion "kit"
Before I purchase one , I need to know if it is completely EXTERNAL to the Honda generator, and therefore exchangeable between identical units, OR if it involves any internal connection or modifications.
Please keep us posted on progress, both engineering AND marketing.
I am sure you will be able to sell a bunch of units on the civilian market.

The setup is completely EXTERNAL. Absolutely no modding to the generator itself. It can be moved from any EU series to another.

Posted: 10/29/2009 4:37:25 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Even though I don't own a EU2000 I am interested.

ETA: When you connect 2 2000watt gennys together does is double the wattage?

Yes, it does double the generator wattage. Please remember, this kit is for Honda EU series generators only.

Posted: 10/29/2009 4:38:33 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
As the Honda stands now, all you have to do to parallel two together is to connect the special connectors together [in parallel between 2 gennys].

The connectors look like they fit test lead plugs and frankly, the kit Honda sells is a HUGE profit center for them, as the kit they sell only costs a few $$ to make.

There's lots of sites on the web showing how to make your own. Look at a schematic of a Honda and you'll see that the special jacks are simply connected to the 110V outlets!! Don't even need to use the jacks, just a special extension cord with two male plugs.

Now please don't get all scardy and riled abt this, just don't do it and buy the Honda kit instead, much safer.

Also, I've never understood how those little connectors and wires can handle ~15 amps at 110VAC reliably, but they apparently do.

I think you've misunderstood. This kit will be reliable and as safe as any of the high end parallel kits such as the one's made by Reliance Controls and Gen-tech.

Posted: 10/29/2009 4:40:16 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
Are you sure he knows what he is talking about? He does (I hope) know the requirements for the phase relationship between 240 V ac, , it is not just 120 v ac x2

I would like a picture from an oscilloscope or other verification before I spend money on this.

My understanding is that this would require another winding to do this correctly.

I will see about getting an oscilloscope print-out. We do understand the requirement for phase relationship. The legs must be 180 degrees from one another as is required for 240V single phase power.

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:36:03 PM EDT

[#20]

Why not use a step up transformer?

Plenty are available used in the 5000 watt rating.

Posted: 10/29/2009 5:50:50 PM EDT

[#21]

I got it!!

Here's how to do it.

When two Hondas are connected in parallel, one senses the phase of the other [how which one is selected I've wondered about for years].

In any case the two gennys' outputs are connected in PARALLEL with the output phasing of each the SAME.

To get 220, you need to trick the gennies to sync up but in the OPPOSITE phase, i.e. 180 apart.

This can likely be easily done with a small isolation transformer about the size of a small fist [and it may be able to be done electronically with something even smaller, there are several ways that come to mind] but the quickest way to evaluate the concept is interconnection of the generators' inverters with a cheap isolation transformer pluged into each and connected 180 out of phase to reverse one genny's lock-up phase with the other's.

Once the two Hondas [only Hondas] are 180 out of phase, you connect the common terminals of them together and you have 220 between the hot sides of each generator.

The 220 VAC load connects to the respective hot terminals.

What I'm unsure about is if a heavy load would unsync the Hondas, but it would be a quick issue to evaluate.

This is something that could be initially tested in an hour and there are many ways to come up with an effective isolation transformer, like two 24 VDC bell transformers connected back to back.

Anyone want to try?

Posted: 10/29/2009 7:00:08 PM EDT

[#22]

Talked to my buddy again. We'll try to get the oscilloscope images as well as post a couple youtube videos in the next couple of days. Pricing the initial costs out, we're starting the price at $250. I'm not sure how to start collecting the funds. I have a paypal account and we can use that. Any objections?

To build the circuitry, my buddy says he'll need about 30-60 days. He's got to get a hold of some of his suppliers to see about parts availability as well as having them built a couple of the parts he needs. I'll start shipping on a first-come first-serve basis.

Posted: 10/29/2009 7:14:02 PM EDT

[#23]

He's also told we that the units will have watt-o-meters on the front of each unit as well as individual breakers to protect each leg of the 240. As I mentioned, I'll try to get pics up either tomorrow or the next day.

Posted: 10/29/2009 11:33:54 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Why not use a step up transformer?

Plenty are available used in the 5000 watt rating.

Phase relationship between the two legs would not be correct for the 240 V motor. For resistive circuits (like an incandescent light bulb) it would not matter. For motors it would.

Posted: 10/29/2009 11:48:07 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:
I got it!!

Here's how to do it.

When two Hondas are connected in parallel, one senses the phase of the other [how which one is selected I've wondered about for years].

In any case the two gennys' outputs are connected in PARALLEL with the output phasing of each the SAME.

To get 220, you need to trick the gennies to sync up but in the OPPOSITE phase, i.e. 180 apart.

This can likely be easily done with a small isolation transformer about the size of a small fist [and it may be able to be done electronically with something even smaller, there are several ways that come to mind] but the quickest way to evaluate the concept is interconnection of the generators' inverters with a cheap isolation transformer pluged into each and connected 180 out of phase to reverse one genny's lock-up phase with the other's.

Once the two Hondas [only Hondas] are 180 out of phase, you connect the common terminals of them together and you have 220 between the hot sides of each generator.

The 220 VAC load connects to the respective hot terminals.

What I'm unsure about is if a heavy load would unsync the Hondas, but it would be a quick issue to evaluate.

This is something that could be initially tested in an hour and there are many ways to come up with an effective isolation transformer, like two 24 VDC bell transformers connected back to back.

Anyone want to try?

I am reading what you wrote, but I am not understanding how this is going to work. If this is such an easy process, why hasn't Honda incorporated this in the manufacturing process. It would give them an advantage over their competition, no one else has 240 V available in a quiet, portable, fuel efficient, inverter based generator.

Edited to add, I have been out of it for close to 20 years, so perhaps I have forgotten too much.

Posted: 10/30/2009 8:25:04 AM EDT

[#26]

Have you tested it with different loads on each leg?

Say you are running your 220 well, plus a small fridge on L1 and some lights on L2.
Can it handle imbalances like that?

Posted: 10/30/2009 8:54:20 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why not use a step up transformer?

Plenty are available used in the 5000 watt rating.

Phase relationship between the two legs would not be correct for the 240 V motor. For resistive circuits (like an incandescent light bulb) it would not matter. For motors it would.

You may not understand that a 220VAC motor in this context is a single phase motor and there is NO 'phase relationship' involved.

If someone needs to run a 220 VAC single phase motor from ANY 110VAC generator with sufficient capacity, a step up transformer is a good solution, one that is overlooked by most since most have little knowledge in this area.

Transformers of all kinds are becoming available or being scrapped as the economy collapses.

Recently we needed to run a 220 VAC air compressor from a 6000 watt light tower genny that was set up for 110 output [w/out changing the internal leads for 220 operation, which would hae been easy] and a small 220/440 label transformer was just the ticket.

[It doesn't matter so much the voltage rating of the transformer, just the ratio, in this case 2 to 1, and also the current rating.]

Posted: 10/30/2009 9:04:46 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I got it!!

Here's how to do it.

When two Hondas are connected in parallel, one senses the phase of the other [how which one is selected I've wondered about for years].

In any case the two gennys' outputs are connected in PARALLEL with the output phasing of each the SAME.

To get 220, you need to trick the gennies to sync up but in the OPPOSITE phase, i.e. 180 apart.

This can likely be easily done with a small isolation transformer about the size of a small fist [and it may be able to be done electronically with something even smaller, there are several ways that come to mind] but the quickest way to evaluate the concept is interconnection of the generators' inverters with a cheap isolation transformer pluged into each and connected 180 out of phase to reverse one genny's lock-up phase with the other's.

Once the two Hondas [only Hondas] are 180 out of phase, you connect the common terminals of them together and you have 220 between the hot sides of each generator.

The 220 VAC load connects to the respective hot terminals.

What I'm unsure about is if a heavy load would unsync the Hondas, but it would be a quick issue to evaluate.

This is something that could be initially tested in an hour and there are many ways to come up with an effective isolation transformer, like two 24 VDC bell transformers connected back to back.

Anyone want to try?

I am reading what you wrote, but I am not understanding how this is going to work. If this is such an easy process, why hasn't Honda incorporated this in the manufacturing process. It would give them an advantage over their competition, no one else has 240 V available in a quiet, portable, fuel efficient, inverter based generator.

Edited to add, I have been out of it for close to 20 years, so perhaps I have forgotten too much.

99% of users might electrocute themselves?

Because on additional reflection it might not work..

Reason being, once a heavy 220V load is placed across the 'hot' side of each Honda, and the neutral legs of both gennys having been tied together, then as far as the mysterious synching logic in the Hondas is concerned, they may 'think they are in parallel again and revert/sync back to each having the same 'relative phase.

This wouldn't likely hurt anything, but the 220 load wouldn't draw any current any longer since there is no phase difference across it.

The isolation/sense transformer/s would now effectively have each winding bucking the other, and unless fused would overheat/burn up.

On the other hand maybe it will work.....

Posted: 10/30/2009 9:20:14 AM EDT

[#29]

Here's a step up or down transformer on eBay, looks like it's rated for 6000 watts, that would likely easily run a small 220 well pump off a heavy capacity 110 generator, even two 2000 watt Hondas.

Ignore the voltage ratings, except for their RATIOS. We're looking for 2:1.

Can't read the label to see the turns ratios to be sure but most of you will get the idea what to look for.

http://cgi.ebay.com/480V-step-up-power-transformer-accepts-120-208V-input_W0QQitemZ200399090760QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Circuit_Breakers_Transformers?hash=item2ea8b77448

I use one that looks almost exactly like it to run a small metal cutting German mfg bandsaw that needs 440VAC from 220VAC.

A lot of old CNC equipment have nice transformers in them, one that is common is the Hurco KMB1 etc, mills.. The xformer is rear center and is single phase with several ratios, worth picking up.

Posted: 10/30/2009 1:53:30 PM EDT

[#30]

This is the problem my buddy ran into. Hense's the circuitry he developed to overcome it. He says for some reason Honda designed this into their inverter circuitry. Not sure why. When he worked with them, they wouldn't disclose the reason. He said he thinks they did it to be able to release the larger units that came out years after the smaller units (i.e. the EU6500i, the EM5000i, and the EM7000i).

Posted: 10/30/2009 1:56:28 PM EDT

[#31]

I still need to get a solid head count on who is in on these. We've gotta have the money to move forward with putting them into production. Did you all feel safe using paypal?

Posted: 10/30/2009 7:00:13 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I still need to get a solid head count on who is in on these. We've gotta have the money to move forward with putting them into production. Did you all feel safe using paypal?

How sure are you this will work?

If one was demo'd somehow I think you would have more bites.

I want one, but only if I know it will work, or know I can send it back if it doesn't.

Posted: 10/30/2009 8:31:21 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:
I still need to get a solid head count on who is in on these. We've gotta have the money to move forward with putting them into production. Did you all feel safe using paypal?

If you want money why not give some technical info so we can evaluate the potential reward for advancing it to you?

I'd like to have one but without more info than you accept PayPal, sending $$$ for a pig in a poke isn't gonna happen.

Posted: 10/30/2009 10:02:22 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I still need to get a solid head count on who is in on these. We've gotta have the money to move forward with putting them into production. Did you all feel safe using paypal?

If you want money why not give some technical info so we can evaluate the potential reward for advancing it to you?

I'd like to have one but without more info than you accept PayPal, sending $$$ for a pig in a poke isn't gonna happen.

Agreed.

I need more. I want to see youtube videos of the system running multiple units under hard loads (2, 3, 4 EU2000's) and units of different engine size (EU2000 + EU3000). I'd like to see the oscilloscope output with the various set-ups.

I also want to know if this going be considered theft of government property, is it Honda's intellectual property, or is your friend a contractor for Honda and developed this idea all on his own time and dime?

If the gov paid for the R&D you better believe they'll have some oversight in one way or another about how the technology is released. It can be commercially released but under ITAR control. Meaning, if anyone tries to take their motorhome and Honda generators to Canada, or Mexico, and use this kit it may fall under ITAR and then they're fucked without going through the proper channels if they get caught.

The company I work for has ITAR materials and we got a big slap on the wrist when one of our EE's carried back a biowarfare detection system in his luggage after a meeting with the Australian government. The instrument was defective and the Aussies wanted him to bring the thing back with him to save on shipping costs since he was already there and heading home. The kick in the nuts was that he didn't have an ITAR import license (it was fucking built in the USA but you still need an ITAR import license) even though he was the fucking EE that designed all the control boards he needed the papers saying he could bring the instrument that was made in the USA back to the USA where there were 5 more identical instruments sitting on his desk. This incident came up again when the guy had to renew his security clearance. He had a fun time explaining shit to two FBI investigators.

Posted: 10/30/2009 10:24:25 PM EDT

[#35]

I`m interested.

But no way in hell am I plopping down $250 bucks for something you say will work, and your "buddy" researched.

Show us some video, some pictures, and read-outs of this thing working.

After all this thing will be once done over $2,000 in equipment minimum... and not knowing wtf it is, how it works, why it works, proof, etc... I doubt you get 1 deposit.

We want more info :D :D

Posted: 11/17/2009 5:50:27 PM EDT

[#36]

Alright guys––––I finally got the pictures together as well as the youtube video. The first image here is L1 and the scope is also triggered by this phase. The L1 phase is positive (up) going at the trigger point. The second image is L2 and is negative (down) going at the trigger point or opposite sign of the first waveform.

Again more images except the time base or sweep on the oscilloscope is onger so more of teh waveform can be seen. L1 is positive going at the trigger point. L2 and is negative going at the trigger point. (180 degrees out of phase).

Here is the link for the video on youtube.

Honda EU2000i 240V Parallel Kit

I am going to try to get some video of a 240V air compressor or well pump running. Just gotta hunt one down.

Posted: 11/17/2009 8:28:29 PM EDT

[#37]

I'm interested.

Here is what I got to work with.

I have 2 EU 2000 companions, one Yamaha 2800 inverter, and one Honda EU6500i.

Does he have something to hook these together?

Posted: 11/17/2009 9:11:53 PM EDT

[#38]

Coues, how are you triggering the scope, in the pictures you posted? External input?

Also, why don't you show both 'phases' on the scope in the video, that Tek scope has at least 2 channels and it would take a second more to set it up. That would be much more meaningful than showing one phase for a couple minutes.

Posted: 11/17/2009 9:19:27 PM EDT

[#39]

This could be just what I was looking for.

In.

Posted: 11/18/2009 3:39:30 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why not use a step up transformer?

Plenty are available used in the 5000 watt rating.

Phase relationship between the two legs would not be correct for the 240 V motor. For resistive circuits (like an incandescent light bulb) it would not matter. For motors it would.

As long as the secondary of the transformer is grounded in the center like it is supposed to be, there shouldn't be a problem. You connect the ungrounded conductor from the generator to H1, and the grounded conductor to H2 of the transformer (primary side), the transformer needs to be a 1:2 ratio to the secondary, with a tap at the center of the secondary coil, which is then grounded. Thus, you have 240v between X1 and X3 , and 120v from X1 or X3 to the grounded center tap, X2. That is basically how a utility transformer works, only that is a step down transformer, but it is the same principle. In all actuality, depending on how much load you have, you might be better off using an autotransformer.

ETA: I also wanted to mention that you do not need a center tap if all you are running are 240v loads from this setup. A previous poster showed a picture of a simple 1:2 ratio transformer that would work cherry for that application, but remember, there is some loss of power due to energizing the coil, and various other losses, but transformers running at near capacity (they like running at their full load), should be about 90-92% efficient, depending on the transformer and conditions present.

Posted: 11/18/2009 3:50:12 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Coues, how are you triggering the scope, in the pictures you posted? External input?

Also, why don't you show both 'phases' on the scope in the video, that Tek scope has at least 2 channels and it would take a second more to set it up. That would be much more meaningful than showing one phase for a couple minutes.

I don't think you completely understand how residential single phase power works. There aren't 2 phases. To get the power to your house, the electric utility tapped only 1 ungrounded (hot) conductor from the pole to H1 of the transformer (one side of the primary coil), and H2 is connected to the neutral/ground (same think in the utility world). So, even if there is 3 phase available at the street, like at my house, they still only tap ONE of those phases, thus, single phase. On the secondary side of the transformer, there are 3 taps. X1, X2 and X3. X1 and X3 are on either end of the coil, and X2 is in the middle. X2 is grounded, and X1 and X3 are the ones that end up in the top of your panel, connected to the 2 buses. If you take a volt meter up to the transformer, from X1 to X3 you will read 240v, and from X1 to X2 you will read 120v, and from X2 to X3 you will read 120v. If you connect X1 and X3 directly to an oscilloscope, you will only see 1 sine wave, because there is only 1 phase present.

As far as motor loads are concerned, since we are talking houses with single phase power, then the motors are either split phase, or capacitor-start motors most likely (though you do see capacitor-run and capacitor start/run). They use internal wiring, be it a higher resistance winding to to get slight phase shift (called a split phase motor), or they use a capacitor connected in series with a winding to do the same thing, and there is usually a centrifugal switch that kicks the start winding out of the circuit once the motor reaches about 70% of its running speed.

Posted: 11/18/2009 4:14:10 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Coues, how are you triggering the scope, in the pictures you posted? External input?

Also, why don't you show both 'phases' on the scope in the video, that Tek scope has at least 2 channels and it would take a second more to set it up. That would be much more meaningful than showing one phase for a couple minutes.

You're right. The scope does have two channels, but I've got to make a cord to connect it. Just haven't got around to making it happen.

Posted: 11/18/2009 4:45:01 AM EDT

[#43]

Confused here. Why would your buddy want to have Line 1 and Line 2 180 degrees out? This is single phase application right?

I thought the idea was to get to gensets to run in parallel. Assuming your buddy can do this it seems to me this is useful. My understanding is most of the small motors in your house like fridges etc are single (split) phase. They are designed to work with one "hot" and a grounded neutral. (120V potential between the 2). A well pump is designed for 2"hot" conductors that have a 240V potential between the conductors + a nuetral conductor. Even though there are 2 conductors there is only 1 phase- just more power. I think you should tell your buddy not to hook up the present installation to a real source if the 2 phases are 180 out. Am I the one "out of phase here"?

Posted: 11/18/2009 5:26:40 AM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:
I still need to get a solid head count on who is in on these. We've gotta have the money to move forward with putting them into production. Did you all feel safe using paypal?

Group buys must be approved in advance.

Posted: 11/18/2009 5:26:59 AM EDT

[#45]

See above

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