I want to buy or build a main battle rifle in 7.62x51 (.308 Win). I've thought about the M1A, the FN-FAL, the AR-10, and the HK-91 (or its clone the PTR-91). I have two other .308's but they are bolt actions.

When I heard a while back that CMMG was making (or going to make) an AR-10 lower that would take G-3 magazines, it peaked my interest. I ended up buying 20 mags from a local surplus dealer and then another 75 of $1 each from Cheaper than Dirt. I also got 30 mag pouches from Sportmansguide.com very cheap.

I know this is kinda backward - buying mags for a rifle you don't even own. But hey, I'm a guy and we do things like this.

So now I'm torn between buying a PTR-91 (non-folding stock, 18" barrel) or getting the CMMG lower that takes G-3 mags and building from there.

I've tallied a list of plus and minuses.

PTR-91

Pluses:

Robust and well-tested design - began with Sturmgewehr and refinement has continued
Less expensive ($989 from CDNN)
Many parts are available surplus
Has been used in active military service in a number of countries
Simpler system - blowback recoil operated

Minuses:

Can chew up brass-port buffer helps
Heavier felt recoil
Some are finicky about ammo
Repairs are more difficult


AR-10 - CMMG G3 lower with DPMS upper

Pluses:

More choices on barrel length and features
More accessories
Easier to work on myself - similar to AR-15
Many parts are interchangeable with an AR-15

Minuses:

Limited to DPMS uppers if I want to use the CMMG G3 lower
Upper requires modification to fit on CMMG G3 lower (must be done by gunsmith)
More expensive ($449 for stripped lower plus $700+ for upper plus a LPK)
Gas impingement design - cleanliness is an issue
Bolt won't hold open after last shot

What am I missing? What other things should I be considering? Which is the better SHTF rifle? I know there is NO perfect rifle.

Thanks

I really have no say as to the two weapons your considering.

I second the FAL

i'm interested in ninja's FAL.... more info on that specific model?

I'm not an expert on this.  But from my own handling, I'd drop the HK clone.  They're clunky and have crappy sights.  The FAL is more world renowned as the go-to battle .308.  The AR10 IMHO is the most appealing, as it will have the best ergonomics and likely the most accurate.  With the DI gas system, it will also have the least weight, making an HBAR less massive.  If I were to purchase a .308 rifle tomorrow it would be this, in A4 configuration.  

HK-91 FTW!



Wen  you absolutely, positively, have to put bug holes in some shit.

I can't see anything that makes your two options any better than the M1A SOCOM model (other than price).  It has good range and accuracy and with the rails they've placed on it, it is very customizable.

You're not taking into account ease of optic mounting.   A magnified optic on a .308 is just about a must, IMHO.

Out of the 2, Id go with the AR. But I sold my AR to get a FAL so that would be my real choice

I did mean to put that on the list. The PTR-91 is more expensive for optics if only because of the cost of scope mount. The AR would be a flat top with Picatinny Rail built in.

If you reload, or plan on some day reloading, don't get the '91. It has a "fluted" chamber that will fuck up your brass. Go with the AR-10 or a FAL.

A POF 308 would be piston, that would be one less con.

As I also have a lot of G3 mags and wanted a platform that does not make fired brass look terrible, I have gone with the SI-Defense model.

Matched set upper and lower.  I got my first set and the fit and finish are top rate.

I gave up lomg ago on CMMG, they have better things to do.....

Can you give me some more info on the SI-Defense model? Is it a HK-91 clone or an AR-10? And if you don't mind my asking, how much?

Thanks

If I trained with an AR15 then the AR10 is what I would lean towards.

I thought all this through before I bought. From research, shooting and handling, I found that there isn't a perfect MBR.

M1A: great iron sights, good accuracy, limited scope mtg options, not easy to work on, mags aren't cheap.
FAL: reliable, good parts availability, cheap mags, awful sights, not the most accurate.
AR-10 A4: great optics compatabiliy, maybe the best accuracy?, good ergo, can be finicky on ammo (meaning not as reliable)
HK 91: fairly accurate, super-cheap mags, no bolt hold-open, cocking handle in a strange pllace, hard on brass, hard on shoulders

At the tme, I was after a reliable rifle for shooting 500-yard gongs with irons. The M1A fit the bill.

Still looking for that battle rifle that is reliable, has options for great irons and versatile optics mounting, has cheap mags and good accuracy. Matbe the XCR-M when it comes out?

Of the .308 rifles the Fal is more common in the world. but the PTR offers the  cheapest .308  mags, cheap parts at Robert RTG parts and it is more friendly than people admit. It throws brass a ton. I just picked up a port buffer and have yet to shoot it. The fluted chamber is not a real issue on  brass unless the loads are smoking hot. Mil spec loads leave marks but the brass reloads fine.   In mags alone you could buy another gun in some platforms.

All of these rifles have been around for nearly 40 years. Their strengths and weaknesses have been known for a long time....MAKE A DECISION.

And when you do, post it, that way in a week when this discussion comes up AGAIN-for the eleventy billionth time, the poster will have the benefit of your input.

I have owned an AR-10 for over 10 years and have never had an ammo issue. The only issue I have had is a couple broken bolt stops which did not put the rifle into a failed/jammed situation. This was caused by use of a suppressor without an adjustable gas block (since added). 4K rounds from surplus to light handloads. 100yd cloverleaf groups. 550meters 18 out of 20 in a 9" pie plate (shooter limited accuracy). YMMV. Mags are durable and getting less expensive.

I have an FAL, PTR, Vector V51 SBR w/Fleming sear, AR10, M1A and a SOCOM II.  If I had to grab one to save my life, I'd get the SOCOM II first, then the FAL.

i'd say FAL 8-days-a-week over the two you posted. of the two, i'd be inclined to go with the PTR. ergos aren't quite as good as the -10, but a PTR will run forever, with little maintenence. not to mention they use one of the best mags ever devised which, in a crazy twist of fate, can be bought for 2 bucks a piece...

If you plan to have an AR-15 and a .308 that you intend to use as battle rifles (or already have alot of training with the AR-15) the commonality in function and controls cannot be stressed enough.  You will do what you have done most or what you have done last in the stress of a firefight.  It is better to have weapons with the same ergonomics.

I'm more of a PTR guy but goddamn thats a slick lookin FAL. Where'd that come from?

One buck a piece, at least for now.

just because

This, I didn't worry about cheap mags and went w/ Armalite.

"Finicky" with ammo shouldn't be a con because you should have a nice stock of the stuff that works.

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

If you are on a budget, you WILL have to compromise in some area.

Personally, I'd pick the gun with the features I wanted and then save up my money for that.

FAL


I've had the ptr91 and The above would be my choice if I had it to do again.....

But I would want the Para-Congo version.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm.  why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate?  i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.



 

They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.

Do you have a reference?  Like where the Spanish or German government specified 2moa or better for the Cetme/HK91 => PTR91.  Where did the U.S. gov spec 2moa  for the M14, or did any of the countries that used the FAL demand 2moa?

It is my understanding that the .gov will happily accept 4moa for a rifle.

FAL FTW!!!

To answer the OP.  Get an AR

I'd like more on this as well.  If it's 1/2 MOA vs 1 MOA, that's a waste of time to worry about for most applications.  But if it's 1.5 MOA vs 3 MOA, then to me it's worth it to go with the 1.5.

I've owned a PTR, AR-10 and A few M1As. Of thoose I would pick an M1A anytime. For me it has the best ergos, ballance and sights. I liked the PTR for everythingt but shooting, recoil on it was about like shooting a 12 ga. with slugs or an ultra light .30-06. The price of mags for the armalite was a turn off as was the ballance. Out of the box the AR10 was probably the most accurate. However shooting with irons, the M1A was  the most easy to shoot accurately. The PTR and the M1A can make scoping a bit difficult, there are work arounds for both, But the AR is a better platform for optics.

I have no experiance with FALs other than a couple of mags. I was unimpressed with it manily due to ergos and accuracy. Recoil as I recall was mild.

Yeah, the M16 acceptable accuracy for m193 is 3moa. But that is irrelevant to our interests because we know 2moa for an AR is easy and moa is possible with a good gun and ammunition. So, no, I don't have any government specs for those rifles because that would be a waste of time, especially considering none of them are made under the auspices of any government. I've shot them, seen them shot, people have posted range reports, and their accuracy is common knowledge.

The trouble with 3 shot groups, intrewb ninja, and tex sharpshooter not all rifles are capable of 2moa IMHO

You shouted that these rifles are all 2moa.  I ask what documentation you have?  Under what test conditions can I expect any ptr91, FAL, M1A, or AR10 to give me 2moa.

If you wish to charge into a thread shouting absolute statements; fine you are free to do so.  Just don't get surprised if I or someone else asks for some reference.

FAL

nah, I don't feel like going through the effort. I could say, "The 9mm S&W M&P is a 2.5" at 25 yard pistol" and I don't have to humor every lazy couch commando with pictures of group sizes. It is common knowledge.

I must say I did think about the FNAR in .308. It is a fine rifle with 1 MOA or less out of the box. It is based upon the Browning BAR hunting rifle but with a 20 round mag (not the WWI or WWII BAR).

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF049&gid=FNG022

Street price is about $1300 which is definitely competitive. However, mags are $80-85 each. This is fine if someone else is buying them!

I have gotten a lot to think about and I appreciate the suggestions. Still not sure what I'm finally going to do.

I sent my trigger group off to a fellow recomended in the H&K section I believe it cost around $60.00.

It was worth it.  It is now a nice single stage smooth breaking trigger.

I just got my Fulton Armory upper milled (on Friday) to take the G3 mags to use with my CMMG lower.  Hoping to get to the range this weekend to try it out and I'll try to post a range report.

It's not a secret I'm an FAL person.



Of the two you have listed.

I prefer the PTR-91/cetme/HK based off my experiences with the rifles.

I'm sure people have have gotten bad ones but all the ones i've dealt with worked great.



I'm sure people have AR-10's that run good.  But i've never witnessed one that would run for any length of time without malfunctions. Probably 15 different armalite rifles.

The AR10 that takes G3 mags or FAL mags and proves to be reliable would definitely be interesting.



M1A can't really explain why i sold mine it was reliable and accurate it just didn't spin my wheels

I didn't think the AR-10 was battle proven. The FAL is though. Is the AR-10 battle proven anywhere????

There might be some minor countries that issued original AR10s but I cannot think of any.  Sylvan might know.  Some AR10 might have been used by the IRA.

The civie AR10 as we are offered by various vendors does not have the benefit of a standardized pattern as adopted by the DOD.  Each vendor is seeking to protect their own turf with trademarks and minor design variations.  A brand name will not create or destroy reliability, but the company behind the brand does the creating.  The design variations create a rat maze for us consumers to work through to find a good AR10 though.

I've taken the opportunity to hold and shoulder the FNAR. The only concern that I have is the mag release.  The FNAR mag release feels like it is far far away in an odd place to me.

I went with the AR route in 762 for a the following reasons.  
1.  I wanted to have a similar platform to what I am used to with my AR's, just seems easier.
2.  I like to be able to use some of the same stuff between the two platforms, I can switch optics super easy (and do sometimes), the stocks can be swapped and some of the internals are the same.  VFG, lights, slings, grips, bipods all just come off and onto any of my other ARs without even thinking about it.  You can do some of the same switching accessories with the other 308 rifles and AR in 556, but its not as easy.
3.  I had a couple of friends that eased my worries about the AR10 platform and its ammo issues.  Glad I did, after a breaking period its only stovepiped on reload out of 1000 or so rounds.  
4.  Armalite is a big company, they are not going anywhere.  I can get NEW parts pretty easily whenever I need them (the freak out during the spring made it difficult to get certain parts).  Picking up spare parts doesn’t require a week long net search like with the PTR and maybe the FAL.  I was also a little worried that parts I might find for the FAL or PTR might not fit because you never know where some of that stuff gets made and by who/when (like when I order AK stuff and it doesnt work). Its been a couple of years since I have looked around though, so I could be off base on this one.
5.  I have a 16'' upper and I have most of the parts for a long range upper laying around (just need another BCG).  Sure, ill eventually get another lower and have two guns, but its nice to have another upper laying around.  
6.  Mags are cheaper than they used to be for the armalite, they usually do sales for 5 mags and discount them a little to around 40 bucks a piece.  Iv collected 8 or 9 (they have 25 rounders now!!).  Iv never really understood why people feel the need to have 100 mags laying around for each gun but they don't collect spare parts and post pics on the internets so everyone can see how cool they are.  


I haven’t seen any first hand reviews of how reliable the CMMG that set up is, especially since you have to modify the uppers.

I do want to add all of these guns to my safe since I already have the one I think works best for me.