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jpr9954
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Posted: 10/11/2009 11:24:16 PM
[Last Edit: 10/11/2009 11:24:36 PM by jpr9954]

THE IMAGE ABOVE IS A PAID ADVERTISEMENT
I want to buy or build a main battle rifle in 7.62x51 (.308 Win). I've thought about the M1A, the FN-FAL, the AR-10, and the HK-91 (or its clone the PTR-91). I have two other .308's but they are bolt actions.

When I heard a while back that CMMG was making (or going to make) an AR-10 lower that would take G-3 magazines, it peaked my interest. I ended up buying 20 mags from a local surplus dealer and then another 75 of $1 each from Cheaper than Dirt. I also got 30 mag pouches from Sportmansguide.com very cheap.

I know this is kinda backward - buying mags for a rifle you don't even own. But hey, I'm a guy and we do things like this.

So now I'm torn between buying a PTR-91 (non-folding stock, 18" barrel) or getting the CMMG lower that takes G-3 mags and building from there.

I've tallied a list of plus and minuses.

PTR-91

Pluses:

Robust and well-tested design - began with Sturmgewehr and refinement has continued
Less expensive ($989 from CDNN)
Many parts are available surplus
Has been used in active military service in a number of countries
Simpler system - blowback recoil operated

Minuses:

Can chew up brass-port buffer helps
Heavier felt recoil
Some are finicky about ammo
Repairs are more difficult


AR-10 - CMMG G3 lower with DPMS upper

Pluses:

More choices on barrel length and features
More accessories
Easier to work on myself - similar to AR-15
Many parts are interchangeable with an AR-15

Minuses:

Limited to DPMS uppers if I want to use the CMMG G3 lower
Upper requires modification to fit on CMMG G3 lower (must be done by gunsmith)
More expensive ($449 for stripped lower plus $700+ for upper plus a LPK)
Gas impingement design - cleanliness is an issue
Bolt won't hold open after last shot

What am I missing? What other things should I be considering? Which is the better SHTF rifle? I know there is NO perfect rifle.

Thanks
"So-called gun-free zones are nothing but hunting preserves for psychopaths that hunt humans." - Massad Ayoob, Dec. 2007

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Darkninja
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Posted: 10/11/2009 11:31:34 PM




I really have no say as to the two weapons your considering.
myitinaw
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Posted: 10/11/2009 11:39:24 PM
I second the FAL






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myitinaw 2006
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Posted: 10/11/2009 11:47:07 PM
i'm interested in ninja's FAL.... more info on that specific model?
lazyengineer
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:24:40 AM
I'm not an expert on this. But from my own handling, I'd drop the HK clone. They're clunky and have crappy sights. The FAL is more world renowned as the go-to battle .308. The AR10 IMHO is the most appealing, as it will have the best ergonomics and likely the most accurate. With the DI gas system, it will also have the least weight, making an HBAR less massive. If I were to purchase a .308 rifle tomorrow it would be this, in A4 configuration.

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Doc_Strangelove
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:27:02 AM
HK-91 FTW!

Wen you absolutely, positively, have to put bug holes in some shit.
FIELD_MP
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:35:13 AM
I can't see anything that makes your two options any better than the M1A SOCOM model (other than price). It has good range and accuracy and with the rails they've placed on it, it is very customizable.
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ken_mays
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:51:55 AM
You're not taking into account ease of optic mounting. A magnified optic on a .308 is just about a must, IMHO.
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GMZ
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:05:07 AM
Out of the 2, Id go with the AR. But I sold my AR to get a FAL so that would be my real choice
jpr9954
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:05:10 AM
Originally Posted By ken_mays:
You're not taking into account ease of optic mounting. A magnified optic on a .308 is just about a must, IMHO.


I did mean to put that on the list. The PTR-91 is more expensive for optics if only because of the cost of scope mount. The AR would be a flat top with Picatinny Rail built in.
"So-called gun-free zones are nothing but hunting preserves for psychopaths that hunt humans." - Massad Ayoob, Dec. 2007

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FLATFOOT762
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:06:00 AM
If you reload, or plan on some day reloading, don't get the '91. It has a "fluted" chamber that will fuck up your brass. Go with the AR-10 or a FAL.
Joe4567
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:37:24 AM
A POF 308 would be piston, that would be one less con.
BigRedDog
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Posted: 10/12/2009 7:36:54 AM
As I also have a lot of G3 mags and wanted a platform that does not make fired brass look terrible, I have gone with the SI-Defense model.

Matched set upper and lower. I got my first set and the fit and finish are top rate.

I gave up lomg ago on CMMG, they have better things to do.....
protus
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Posted: 10/12/2009 7:46:16 AM
FAL/PTR

for me i'd go PTR..only becuase of cheap parts, cheap mags etc.
my 2 cents nothing more.


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jpr9954
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:36:47 AM
Originally Posted By BigRedDog:
As I also have a lot of G3 mags and wanted a platform that does not make fired brass look terrible, I have gone with the SI-Defense model.

Matched set upper and lower. I got my first set and the fit and finish are top rate.

I gave up lomg ago on CMMG, they have better things to do.....


Can you give me some more info on the SI-Defense model? Is it a HK-91 clone or an AR-10? And if you don't mind my asking, how much?

Thanks
"So-called gun-free zones are nothing but hunting preserves for psychopaths that hunt humans." - Massad Ayoob, Dec. 2007

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Schmoopy
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:37:57 AM
If I trained with an AR15 then the AR10 is what I would lean towards.
brianf31
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:41:21 AM
I thought all this through before I bought. From research, shooting and handling, I found that there isn't a perfect MBR.

M1A: great iron sights, good accuracy, limited scope mtg options, not easy to work on, mags aren't cheap.
FAL: reliable, good parts availability, cheap mags, awful sights, not the most accurate.
AR-10 A4: great optics compatabiliy, maybe the best accuracy?, good ergo, can be finicky on ammo (meaning not as reliable)
HK 91: fairly accurate, super-cheap mags, no bolt hold-open, cocking handle in a strange pllace, hard on brass, hard on shoulders

At the tme, I was after a reliable rifle for shooting 500-yard gongs with irons. The M1A fit the bill.

Still looking for that battle rifle that is reliable, has options for great irons and versatile optics mounting, has cheap mags and good accuracy. Matbe the XCR-M when it comes out?
whiskerz
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:43:05 AM
Of the .308 rifles the Fal is more common in the world. but the PTR offers the cheapest .308 mags, cheap parts at Robert RTG parts and it is more friendly than people admit. It throws brass a ton. I just picked up a port buffer and have yet to shoot it. The fluted chamber is not a real issue on brass unless the loads are smoking hot. Mil spec loads leave marks but the brass reloads fine. In mags alone you could buy another gun in some platforms.
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Will
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:00:55 AM
[Last Edit: 10/12/2009 9:02:18 AM by Will]
All of these rifles have been around for nearly 40 years. Their strengths and weaknesses have been known for a long time....MAKE A DECISION.

And when you do, post it, that way in a week when this discussion comes up AGAIN-for the eleventy billionth time, the poster will have the benefit of your input.
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MadMurdock
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:40:12 AM
Originally Posted By brianf31:
I thought all this through before I bought. From research, shooting and handling, I found that there isn't a perfect MBR.

M1A: great iron sights, good accuracy, limited scope mtg options, not easy to work on, mags aren't cheap.
FAL: reliable, good parts availability, cheap mags, awful sights, not the most accurate.
AR-10 A4: great optics compatabiliy, maybe the best accuracy?, good ergo, can be finicky on ammo (meaning not as reliable)
HK 91: fairly accurate, super-cheap mags, no bolt hold-open, cocking handle in a strange pllace, hard on brass, hard on shoulders

At the tme, I was after a reliable rifle for shooting 500-yard gongs with irons. The M1A fit the bill.

Still looking for that battle rifle that is reliable, has options for great irons and versatile optics mounting, has cheap mags and good accuracy. Matbe the XCR-M when it comes out?


I have owned an AR-10 for over 10 years and have never had an ammo issue. The only issue I have had is a couple broken bolt stops which did not put the rifle into a failed/jammed situation. This was caused by use of a suppressor without an adjustable gas block (since added). 4K rounds from surplus to light handloads. 100yd cloverleaf groups. 550meters 18 out of 20 in a 9" pie plate (shooter limited accuracy). YMMV. Mags are durable and getting less expensive.
Fuggit
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Posted: 10/12/2009 10:23:54 AM
I have an FAL, PTR, Vector V51 SBR w/Fleming sear, AR10, M1A and a SOCOM II. If I had to grab one to save my life, I'd get the SOCOM II first, then the FAL.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 10:34:51 AM



i'd say FAL 8-days-a-week over the two you posted. of the two, i'd be inclined to go with the PTR. ergos aren't quite as good as the -10, but a PTR will run forever, with little maintenence. not to mention they use one of the best mags ever devised which, in a crazy twist of fate, can be bought for 2 bucks a piece...


alorton
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:34:54 AM
Originally Posted By Schmoopy:
If I trained with an AR15 then the AR10 is what I would lean towards.


If you plan to have an AR-15 and a .308 that you intend to use as battle rifles (or already have alot of training with the AR-15) the commonality in function and controls cannot be stressed enough. You will do what you have done most or what you have done last in the stress of a firefight. It is better to have weapons with the same ergonomics.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:03:11 PM
Originally Posted By Darkninja:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i274/Darkninja90/FNFAL.jpg



I really have no say as to the two weapons your considering.


I'm more of a PTR guy but goddamn thats a slick lookin FAL. Where'd that come from?
What the fuck were you going to do? Laugh the last three guys to death, funnyman?!

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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:25:51 PM
Originally Posted By bullyforyou:



i'd say FAL 8-days-a-week over the two you posted. of the two, i'd be inclined to go with the PTR. ergos aren't quite as good as the -10, but a PTR will run forever, with little maintenence. not to mention they use one of the best mags ever devised which, in a crazy twist of fate, can be bought for 2 bucks a piece...




One buck a piece, at least for now.

BRONZ
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:45:56 PM
I fired a friends PTR a few times. All I remembered was it had a very very heavy trigger pull.
BRONZ

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