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eastTXhunter
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Posted: 10/12/2009 12:57:58 PM
[Last Edit: 10/13/2009 10:37:54 AM by eastTXhunter]
I personally hate the takedown on the ptr, the rollers etc.. In addition I disliked the scope options on it as well, the MI lo pro was about the best method I found. They are great, but hard to work on, barrel changes etc... In addition they are essentially sheet metal guns. I bent the receiver over my cocking tube once while hunting. They are reliable and have a following, I prefer LR308 or FAL over it though. My FAL is about the same weight and built like a tank. IMHO the DPMS 7.62 sportical is the best bang for the buck. Mags are reasonable, even c products make them and the new pmags coming out will work with them as well. YMMV

Edit: I also hate the ergonomics of the PTR, the mag release is weird and so is the safety.
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TaylorWSO
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:08:29 PM


just because
I use a flamethrower for home defense, it always beats the racking of the 870 and the "superior" wounding effects of the AR
Daisycutter123
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:18:17 PM
Originally Posted By alorton:
Originally Posted By Schmoopy:
If I trained with an AR15 then the AR10 is what I would lean towards.


If you plan to have an AR-15 and a .308 that you intend to use as battle rifles (or already have alot of training with the AR-15) the commonality in function and controls cannot be stressed enough. You will do what you have done most or what you have done last in the stress of a firefight. It is better to have weapons with the same ergonomics.


This, I didn't worry about cheap mags and went w/ Armalite.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 1:28:01 PM
"Finicky" with ammo shouldn't be a con because you should have a nice stock of the stuff that works.

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

If you are on a budget, you WILL have to compromise in some area.

Personally, I'd pick the gun with the features I wanted and then save up my money for that.
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GroundLabTactical
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Posted: 10/12/2009 2:24:56 PM
[Last Edit: 10/12/2009 2:25:55 PM by GroundLabTactical]
FAL


I've had the ptr91 and The above would be my choice if I had it to do again.....

But I would want the Para-Congo version.
Forest
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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:18:56 PM
I'm a big-time AR-15 type guy, but if I were to buy a .308 I'd have to go FAL. The .308 AR-10s just don't have the reliablity/durablity of the -15 series. They make fine semi-auto precision rifles, but when run really hard they just don't keep up.
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Tweeder
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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:27:26 PM

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.
Skillshot
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Posted: 10/12/2009 3:46:21 PM
Originally Posted By Tweeder:

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.


They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.
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PA22-400
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Posted: 10/12/2009 4:34:44 PM
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Tweeder:

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.


They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.


Do you have a reference? Like where the Spanish or German government specified 2moa or better for the Cetme/HK91 => PTR91. Where did the U.S. gov spec 2moa for the M14, or did any of the countries that used the FAL demand 2moa?

It is my understanding that the .gov will happily accept 4moa for a rifle.

Asking for opinions on the internet and then getting upset for getting them is like stirring up a hornets' nest and then getting pissed because you got stung.
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mcnielsen
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Posted: 10/12/2009 4:35:55 PM
FAL FTW!!!
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PA22-400
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Posted: 10/12/2009 4:41:28 PM
To answer the OP. Get an AR

Asking for opinions on the internet and then getting upset for getting them is like stirring up a hornets' nest and then getting pissed because you got stung.
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lazyengineer
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Posted: 10/12/2009 6:01:08 PM
Originally Posted By PA22-400:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Tweeder:

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.


They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.


Do you have a reference? Like where the Spanish or German government specified 2moa or better for the Cetme/HK91 => PTR91. Where did the U.S. gov spec 2moa for the M14, or did any of the countries that used the FAL demand 2moa?

It is my understanding that the .gov will happily accept 4moa for a rifle.



I'd like more on this as well. If it's 1/2 MOA vs 1 MOA, that's a waste of time to worry about for most applications. But if it's 1.5 MOA vs 3 MOA, then to me it's worth it to go with the 1.5.
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EXCATM76
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:04:50 PM
[Last Edit: 10/12/2009 8:39:23 PM by EXCATM76]
I've owned a PTR, AR-10 and A few M1As. Of thoose I would pick an M1A anytime. For me it has the best ergos, ballance and sights. I liked the PTR for everythingt but shooting, recoil on it was about like shooting a 12 ga. with slugs or an ultra light .30-06. The price of mags for the armalite was a turn off as was the ballance. Out of the box the AR10 was probably the most accurate. However shooting with irons, the M1A was the most easy to shoot accurately. The PTR and the M1A can make scoping a bit difficult, there are work arounds for both, But the AR is a better platform for optics.

I have no experiance with FALs other than a couple of mags. I was unimpressed with it manily due to ergos and accuracy. Recoil as I recall was mild.
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Skillshot
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Posted: 10/12/2009 8:31:02 PM
Originally Posted By PA22-400:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Tweeder:

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.


They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.


Do you have a reference? Like where the Spanish or German government specified 2moa or better for the Cetme/HK91 => PTR91. Where did the U.S. gov spec 2moa for the M14, or did any of the countries that used the FAL demand 2moa?

It is my understanding that the .gov will happily accept 4moa for a rifle.



Yeah, the M16 acceptable accuracy for m193 is 3moa. But that is irrelevant to our interests because we know 2moa for an AR is easy and moa is possible with a good gun and ammunition. So, no, I don't have any government specs for those rifles because that would be a waste of time, especially considering none of them are made under the auspices of any government. I've shot them, seen them shot, people have posted range reports, and their accuracy is common knowledge.



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PA22-400
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:03:19 PM
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By PA22-400:
Originally Posted By Skillshot:
Originally Posted By Tweeder:

Originally Posted By Skillshot:

You guys listing "accuracy" as an issue crack me up. Are you building a DMR rifle? Are you going to be taking head shots on deer at 400 yards? Any well built rifle already listed will be plenty accurate. Besides, that's more of an ammunition issue.

you use a rifle that's highly accurate because when the shit hits the fan, you won't be shooting from a bench, you won't be able to fully concentrate on the shot, and you sure as hell will not be calm. why choose a rifle that you have to basically turn yourself into a machine rest just so that you can hit a pie-plate? i'd MUCH rather have a rifle that shoots at least CLOSE to MOA for no other reason than to make my job easier.


They are ALL 2 moa rifles. Using a 1moa rifle isn't going to help you.


Do you have a reference? Like where the Spanish or German government specified 2moa or better for the Cetme/HK91 => PTR91. Where did the U.S. gov spec 2moa for the M14, or did any of the countries that used the FAL demand 2moa?

It is my understanding that the .gov will happily accept 4moa for a rifle.



Yeah, the M16 acceptable accuracy for m193 is 3moa. But that is irrelevant to our interests because we know 2moa for an AR is easy and moa is possible with a good gun and ammunition. So, no, I don't have any government specs for those rifles because that would be a waste of time, especially considering none of them are made under the auspices of any government. I've shot them, seen them shot, people have posted range reports, and their accuracy is common knowledge.






The trouble with 3 shot groups, intrewb ninja, and tex sharpshooter not all rifles are capable of 2moa IMHO

You shouted that these rifles are all 2moa. I ask what documentation you have? Under what test conditions can I expect any ptr91, FAL, M1A, or AR10 to give me 2moa.

If you wish to charge into a thread shouting absolute statements; fine you are free to do so. Just don't get surprised if I or someone else asks for some reference.
Asking for opinions on the internet and then getting upset for getting them is like stirring up a hornets' nest and then getting pissed because you got stung.
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l1a1man
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:04:50 PM
FAL
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:32:20 PM
Originally Posted By PA22-400:
The trouble with 3 shot groups, intrewb ninja, and tex sharpshooter not all rifles are capable of 2moa IMHO

You shouted that these rifles are all 2moa. I ask what documentation you have? Under what test conditions can I expect any ptr91, FAL, M1A, or AR10 to give me 2moa.

If you wish to charge into a thread shouting absolute statements; fine you are free to do so. Just don't get surprised if I or someone else asks for some reference.


nah, I don't feel like going through the effort. I could say, "The 9mm S&W M&P is a 2.5" at 25 yard pistol" and I don't have to humor every lazy couch commando with pictures of group sizes. It is common knowledge.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 9:58:38 PM
I must say I did think about the FNAR in .308. It is a fine rifle with 1 MOA or less out of the box. It is based upon the Browning BAR hunting rifle but with a 20 round mag (not the WWI or WWII BAR).

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF049&gid=FNG022

Street price is about $1300 which is definitely competitive. However, mags are $80-85 each. This is fine if someone else is buying them!

I have gotten a lot to think about and I appreciate the suggestions. Still not sure what I'm finally going to do.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 10:30:28 PM
Originally Posted By BRONZ:
I fired a friends PTR a few times. All I remembered was it had a very very heavy trigger pull.



I sent my trigger group off to a fellow recomended in the H&K section I believe it cost around $60.00.

It was worth it. It is now a nice single stage smooth breaking trigger.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:01:30 PM
I just got my Fulton Armory upper milled (on Friday) to take the G3 mags to use with my CMMG lower. Hoping to get to the range this weekend to try it out and I'll try to post a range report.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:07:20 PM
It's not a secret I'm an FAL person.

Of the two you have listed.
I prefer the PTR-91/cetme/HK based off my experiences with the rifles.
I'm sure people have have gotten bad ones but all the ones i've dealt with worked great.

I'm sure people have AR-10's that run good. But i've never witnessed one that would run for any length of time without malfunctions. Probably 15 different armalite rifles.
The AR10 that takes G3 mags or FAL mags and proves to be reliable would definitely be interesting.

M1A can't really explain why i sold mine it was reliable and accurate it just didn't spin my wheels
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widmn
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:13:23 PM
I didn't think the AR-10 was battle proven. The FAL is though. Is the AR-10 battle proven anywhere????
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:43:15 PM
Originally Posted By widmn:
I didn't think the AR-10 was battle proven. The FAL is though. Is the AR-10 battle proven anywhere????


There might be some minor countries that issued original AR10s but I cannot think of any. Sylvan might know. Some AR10 might have been used by the IRA.

The civie AR10 as we are offered by various vendors does not have the benefit of a standardized pattern as adopted by the DOD. Each vendor is seeking to protect their own turf with trademarks and minor design variations. A brand name will not create or destroy reliability, but the company behind the brand does the creating. The design variations create a rat maze for us consumers to work through to find a good AR10 though.
Asking for opinions on the internet and then getting upset for getting them is like stirring up a hornets' nest and then getting pissed because you got stung.
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:47:33 PM
Originally Posted By jpr9954:
I must say I did think about the FNAR in .308. It is a fine rifle with 1 MOA or less out of the box. It is based upon the Browning BAR hunting rifle but with a 20 round mag (not the WWI or WWII BAR).

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF049&gid=FNG022

Street price is about $1300 which is definitely competitive. However, mags are $80-85 each. This is fine if someone else is buying them!

I have gotten a lot to think about and I appreciate the suggestions. Still not sure what I'm finally going to do.


I've taken the opportunity to hold and shoulder the FNAR. The only concern that I have is the mag release. The FNAR mag release feels like it is far far away in an odd place to me.
Asking for opinions on the internet and then getting upset for getting them is like stirring up a hornets' nest and then getting pissed because you got stung.
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azeyecap
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Posted: 10/12/2009 11:57:59 PM
I went with the AR route in 762 for a the following reasons.
1. I wanted to have a similar platform to what I am used to with my AR's, just seems easier.
2. I like to be able to use some of the same stuff between the two platforms, I can switch optics super easy (and do sometimes), the stocks can be swapped and some of the internals are the same. VFG, lights, slings, grips, bipods all just come off and onto any of my other ARs without even thinking about it. You can do some of the same switching accessories with the other 308 rifles and AR in 556, but its not as easy.
3. I had a couple of friends that eased my worries about the AR10 platform and its ammo issues. Glad I did, after a breaking period its only stovepiped on reload out of 1000 or so rounds.
4. Armalite is a big company, they are not going anywhere. I can get NEW parts pretty easily whenever I need them (the freak out during the spring made it difficult to get certain parts). Picking up spare parts doesn’t require a week long net search like with the PTR and maybe the FAL. I was also a little worried that parts I might find for the FAL or PTR might not fit because you never know where some of that stuff gets made and by who/when (like when I order AK stuff and it doesnt work). Its been a couple of years since I have looked around though, so I could be off base on this one.
5. I have a 16'' upper and I have most of the parts for a long range upper laying around (just need another BCG). Sure, ill eventually get another lower and have two guns, but its nice to have another upper laying around.
6. Mags are cheaper than they used to be for the armalite, they usually do sales for 5 mags and discount them a little to around 40 bucks a piece. Iv collected 8 or 9 (they have 25 rounders now!!). Iv never really understood why people feel the need to have 100 mags laying around for each gun but they don't collect spare parts and post pics on the internets so everyone can see how cool they are.


I haven’t seen any first hand reviews of how reliable the CMMG that set up is, especially since you have to modify the uppers.

I do want to add all of these guns to my safe since I already have the one I think works best for me.
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