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Posted: 9/25/2009 7:04:47 PM EDT
This is my first post. I have been lurking, reading and learning for about 2 years. I hope there are many others like me. Thank you all for the wit and wisdom you have imparted. You are a great asset to this Nation. Now onto my post...

So here's what got me thinking. I'm in State law enforcement in Ohio. I was at one of our annual 2 day training events. We were in a classroom session on Domestic terrorism. The speaker was our agencies liaison with the FBI on the Joint Terrorism Task Force that was set up after 9/11. They broke it into two categories; home grown terrorists influenced by Al Qaeda and the like; and everybody else. So in the first category was some of the post 9/11 arrestees from Ohio like Christopher Paul and Imam Fawaz Damra, and then the second group included all white supremest groups, militia groups, people with anti-government sentiment, and anyone else who was overly religious. This part was nothing new to me, they have gone over this a few years prior. Then came the trouble...The instructor started talking about indicators which could be used to warn us of these peoples presence. Most made sense, like if the guy has a swastika on his forehead. Some others covered more discreet body markings. I didn't have any problem with this, but then he shows us a slide of some bumper stickers. One says, "The UN is not our friend!" and the second says, "Exercise your rights, or you'll lose them." He goes on to say that these are good indicators that the person in this car is anti-government and probably violent.

Now, I'm not one to let this slip by unchallenged. So I raise my hand and say, " Are you saying that these are possible indicators or probable indicators. He says, "probable." I take issue with this, "I say." "First, if you know anything about the UN, they aren't our friend. They also aren't our government, so I hardly see how that would make this person anti-government. And the second statement seems fairly innocuous. I would think that both the extreme left and the extreme right would say that a right not exercised is easily lost. So I would agree with both of those statements and I hardly think that makes me a threat." He looks right at me and says half jokingly, "maybe we should add you to our list." There was a bit of an awkward silence as we stared at each other. Then he just moved on. Later he showed more stickers that said things like, "I believe in the Bible", and abortion is wrong" At one point he showed a picture of some sort of Aryan Nation marking and said to me, "do you have one of these?" I was fuming.

At a later break I consulted some of the other guys, of which there were about 50. Some said they thought the guy was way out of line and some others said they thought I should have just let it go. Everyone seemed to agree he was serious. I later made the point to him that by his measure our forefathers would be suspect. I guess at that point it struck me. This guy draws no distinction between the person who blows himself up for Allah, and the guy who doesn't like big government. Since he was trained by the Feds, I must assume they feel the same.

It seems like most of the discussion and preparation here revolves around some degree or another of SHTF. I feel like that is well covered and thought out. I don't want to debate about the likeliness of one scenario or another, instead I would relish your thoughts on the scenario that concerns me the most, and which I think is the more difficult one to prepare for. You are suddenly that domestic terrorist, not because you have committed terrorist acts, but because of what you believe. They are coming for you. Now survive.

You can imagine what's stacked against you. You have to survive long enough to turn public sentiment in your favor. Not unlike our forefathers and ultimately you must save your country.

Here is what I think you have going for you. The Feds simply don't have enough resources, but could remedy that with foreign help. They rely heavily on local law enforcement which at least in my area will give them little support. State law enforcement is about half and half IMO.

Sorry for such a meaty first post. I greatly respect your opinions.

Link Posted: 9/25/2009 7:23:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2009 7:23:43 PM EDT by bmw20]
There is a pretty simple answer here.......but likely not the one you want to hear. Unfortunately, most would not survive, especially if they are also trying to keep a wife & kids alive.

One person cannot fight even 1% of what the Feds can bring to bear upon them. Even those of us that prepare and train with small groups of likeminded individuals would only be prolonging death.

Know what else? I wouldn't care. The day that the .gov targets me as a terrorist for exercising my god given and/or Constitutional rights is the day that I will happily pay for what I believe in with my blood. I would never attempt or even think about inflicting harm on the Country that I love - but I will also continue to believe that smaller gov't is better than larger gov't and freedoms are greater than restrictions. When I can no longer say these things without fear of retribution from the gov't, I don't think I would want to be around anyway.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 7:41:26 PM EDT
Unfortunately, this guys perception is his reality and I'm sure it's the reality of others in his position too. His perception is not good for many good,

country loving, god fearing people of this great nation. I'm sure George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, and all the other great

founding fathers of this country have turned in their graves and shed a tear at this type of speech.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 7:55:56 PM EDT
thank you for posting. We have known about this bias for a long time. Its interesting to here more confirmation.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:03:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2009 8:03:45 PM EDT by stormwalker]
Here's my perspective.

I too am in government law enforcement, and of the entire department we are about 70%-30% patriot vs go along get along types.

the feds are severely stretched thin, they put up a great show for onezy twozy type senarios (Waco, Oklahoma city, ruby ridge)

but if you have a Katrina going on in three or more places at once, they'll grid lock, be out of resources and without local help will be largely ineffectual. IF THEY STICK TO POSSE COMITATUS.

if they bring in the military on it's own citizens, all bets are off and America is doomed, you'll have rouge admirals and generals disobeying the government and going with the Constitution, and others following orders from Washington. once foreign troops get on our soil to help Washington well you might just be looking at world Armageddon, WWIII for sure. I'm not real sure how that wold actually play out.

But more to your point, I think the animus toward conservative view points are regional.

I just went through a very similar terrorism briefing here in Nevada, and the topics were pro- constitution, supportive of conservatism, and pro America. they did bring up some "indicators" but nothing like as was presented like your situation.

and welcome to your first post.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:12:12 PM EDT
The key in my mind is the changing of public perception / sentiment. There are many people around me who know my character who might not know my belief system or politics. I have started to be much more outspoken about what I believe and some people have been very shocked. My goal is to win people over with who I am and how I govern my life. That way even if I were to fall victim to some sort of witch-hunt, my martyrdom will win some who knew the real me.
I would not give the feds too much credit either. I have seen them in action and they are much more careless and sloppy than you think. If their cases were tried in my local court they would all be thrown out. They get away with much of what they do, b/c it is federal court. If I conducted my business like they do I would be fired. Also I can't reiterate enough their reliance on local law enforcement for intel and operational help, they simply don't have the manpower yet.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:14:07 PM EDT
Thanks for standing up. Unless guy’s like you do, we are doomed. The sad part of the 50 in the room only one, you stood up and confronted this statist nonsense. This is a cause for concern because local law enforcement will be intimidated into doing things they would not normally do because their jobs will be in pearl otherwise.

The best thing we as Americans can do is confront this un-American sentiment and challenge these people head on while we still can. You know when they cry bigotry it is because they cannot win by debating the merits of an argument, so they opt for personal attack on one’s motives and character.

The left is using the opportunity to use justified fear of real terrorist threats to compartmentalize all dissenters as equally culpable. This is to implement their agenda into the mainstream. They use “reason” and fear to sell this garbage. Conservatives and those with traditional values are an obstacle to the power of a growing repressive sate. As a terrorist is a menace to the safety of the people, one individual that cherishes individual liberty is equally threatening to a State seeking an expansion of power.

People will give up some liberty for security. By using incrementalism slowly over time personal liberty will be eclipsed by the dominance of a “beneficent” State. This is why conservatives are branded stupid, extremists, racists and any other demeaning name of the day. Yes we must confront these people. Ask them how did they reach their conclusions? What data can you review that you can verify their statements? Be as ruthless and as annoying as they are!

You will find by using facts and exposing THEIR bigotry they will come unglued. Just be careful because you will have chosen sides.



Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:21:14 PM EDT
I gotta say, that is one helluva great first post.... and welcome to ARFCOM and SF.

I also have been through a few power points similar to what you describe and it honestly scares me... that the people we entrust to enforce the laws genuinly have this opinion. Forget about racial profiling, this is political profiling by the government WE (collectively) elected to preserve these very rights. Thanks for your post again...
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:27:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Dingeman:
This is my first post. I have been lurking, reading and learning for about 2 years. I hope there are many others like me. Thank you all for the wit and wisdom you have imparted. You are a great asset to this Nation. Now onto my post...

So here's what got me thinking. I'm in State law enforcement in Ohio. I was at one of our annual 2 day training events. We were in a classroom session on Domestic terrorism. The speaker was our agencies liaison with the FBI on the Joint Terrorism Task Force that was set up after 9/11. They broke it into two categories; home grown terrorists influenced by Al Qaeda and the like; and everybody else. So in the first category was some of the post 9/11 arrestees from Ohio like Christopher Paul and Imam Fawaz Damra, and then the second group included all white supremest groups, militia groups, people with anti-government sentiment, and anyone else who was overly religious. This part was nothing new to me, they have gone over this a few years prior. Then came the trouble...The instructor started talking about indicators which could be used to warn us of these peoples presence. Most made sense, like if the guy has a swastika on his forehead. Some others covered more discreet body markings. I didn't have any problem with this, but then he shows us a slide of some bumper stickers. One says, "The UN is not our friend!" and the second says, "Exercise your rights, or you'll lose them." He goes on to say that these are good indicators that the person in this car is anti-government and probably violent.

Now, I'm not one to let this slip by unchallenged. So I raise my hand and say, " Are you saying that these are possible indicators or probable indicators. He says, "probable." I take issue with this, "I say." "First, if you know anything about the UN, they aren't our friend. They also aren't our government, so I hardly see how that would make this person anti-government. And the second statement seems fairly innocuous. I would think that both the extreme left and the extreme right would say that a right not exercised is easily lost. So I would agree with both of those statements and I hardly think that makes me a threat." He looks right at me and says half jokingly, "maybe we should add you to our list." There was a bit of an awkward silence as we stared at each other. Then he just moved on. Later he showed more stickers that said things like, "I believe in the Bible", and abortion is wrong" At one point he showed a picture of some sort of Aryan Nation marking and said to me, "do you have one of these?" I was fuming.

At a later break I consulted some of the other guys, of which there were about 50. Some said they thought the guy was way out of line and some others said they thought I should have just let it go. Everyone seemed to agree he was serious. I later made the point to him that by his measure our forefathers would be suspect. I guess at that point it struck me. This guy draws no distinction between the person who blows himself up for Allah, and the guy who doesn't like big government. Since he was trained by the Feds, I must assume they feel the same.

It seems like most of the discussion and preparation here revolves around some degree or another of SHTF. I feel like that is well covered and thought out. I don't want to debate about the likeliness of one scenario or another, instead I would relish your thoughts on the scenario that concerns me the most, and which I think is the more difficult one to prepare for. You are suddenly that domestic terrorist, not because you have committed terrorist acts, but because of what you believe. They are coming for you. Now survive.

You can imagine what's stacked against you. You have to survive long enough to turn public sentiment in your favor. Not unlike our forefathers and ultimately you must save your country.

Here is what I think you have going for you. The Feds simply don't have enough resources, but could remedy that with foreign help. They rely heavily on local law enforcement which at least in my area will give them little support. State law enforcement is about half and half IMO.

Sorry for such a meaty first post. I greatly respect your opinions.



Thank You for your message. I think it was an eye opener. It sickens me to think the FBI has nothing better to do then portray law abiding
God Fearing, U.S. Constitution believers as terrorists. What ever happened to the war on the gangs they were pursuing, I remember a dozen
years ago they said they were going after them, meanwhile there are cities you don't want to walk down streets in daylight.

This just makes my Irish blood boil, I want to right this minute place about 3 stickers on my Jeep, however it's raining.LOL

Well you seem to be very grounded, remember your family, your parents, how do they feel about those very same subjects.
You will do what's right, when the time comes, remember the Constitution, it's not about a single govt in charge, or a President.
The Constitution is the American People's protection from tyranny.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:34:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bmw20:
There is a pretty simple answer here.......but likely not the one you want to hear. Unfortunately, most would not survive, especially if they are also trying to keep a wife & kids alive.

One person cannot fight even 1% of what the Feds can bring to bear upon them. Even those of us that prepare and train with small groups of likeminded individuals would only be prolonging death.

Know what else? I wouldn't care. The day that the .gov targets me as a terrorist for exercising my god given and/or Constitutional rights is the day that I will happily pay for what I believe in with my blood. I would never attempt or even think about inflicting harm on the Country that I love - but I will also continue to believe that smaller gov't is better than larger gov't and freedoms are greater than restrictions. When I can no longer say these things without fear of retribution from the gov't, I don't think I would want to be around anyway.


You are quite right, we could not, we would not be able to survive, although I do not condone Waco Texas what David karesh was doing and I do not know but 10pct of the facts, the dramatization I saw, on the first day, the ATF and perhaps the FBI got its ass handed to them.

I remember Ruby Ridge, although very tragic to loose his wife, I think he was eventually vindicated.

It's amazing, we have known terrorists walking the street, gangs out of control, and the FEDS are worried about an abortion sticker.
Or don't tread on me. I think I would have told him, yeah you want to buy some. They do not intimidate me, because they work for me also.
I am a law abiding tax payer, loyal to the U.S. Constitution, not the marxist's we have now in govt.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:41:00 PM EDT
that is a nightmare scenario

What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house.

I hope sheer numbers of people to round up would make it impossible. If they lock everybody up, who is going to grow the food to feed them? Liberals and socialists don't farm or drive 18 wheelers.

You are right tho. I was on an investment forum where they were debating who would be the new group to blame all the problems on. Last time it was jews, this time it just might be people perceived as wealthy or having anything to do with finance or banking.

Historic change is coming for sure.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:56:33 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ken_in_Va:
that is a nightmare scenario

What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house.

I hope sheer numbers of people to round up would make it impossible. If they lock everybody up, who is going to grow the food to feed them? Liberals and socialists don't farm or drive 18 wheelers.

You are right tho. I was on an investment forum where they were debating who would be the new group to blame all the problems on. Last time it was jews, this time it just might be people perceived as wealthy or having anything to do with finance or banking.

Historic change is coming for sure.


Cursed or blessed, We are living in interesting times.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 8:57:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ken_in_Va:
What you describe is the gov going after the people that believe in the constitution or have a bible in their house.
.


Hope + Change? Unfortunately probably not. If this guy is "training" people, he's probably been around longer than a year...

Thanks for posting and welcome aboard. This is frightening...

-Slice
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 9:15:46 PM EDT
Thanks for confirming what many of us have been witness too. I chuckkle everytime I go through a FBI sponsored talk anymore as half the people in the room are the ones they are talking about. I think I heard recently that only about 13% of the british subjects rose up to become the founding fathers etc.
So even though alot will sit about, there is enough to overcome their foolishness, I never have beleived that a larger majority of the police and military
will be on the governemnt side rather than ours. Welcome to the forum.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 9:50:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By ERNURSE:
I think I heard recently that only about 13% of the british subjects rose up to become the founding fathers etc.


The very pro-gun Sipsey Street Irregulars blog has some background on this. I don't know if it's accurate, but the blog claims:

During the American Revolution, the active forces in the field against the King's tyranny never amounted to more than 3% of the colonists. They were in turn actively supported by perhaps 10% of the population.


You can find the full article under the heading What is a "Three Percenter"? in the sidebar at the right. It's a short but inspiring read.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 9:58:12 PM EDT
One thing to remember like with Carter calling conservitives racists, once you call some one a racist, you no longer have to acknowledge that person as creditable.
The same thing with equating Patriot with terrorist.
Dangerous territory.
The leftist spinmasters work there play book to a T.
After all, its all about the saftey of the children.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 10:10:54 PM EDT
Thanks non descript, three percent is even better.
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 10:51:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2009 10:52:35 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/25/2009 10:58:24 PM EDT
you had better sway public opinion very quickly.

Link Posted: 9/26/2009 2:18:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 2:21:06 AM EDT by TAP]
It sickens me to think the FBI has nothing better to do then portray law abiding God Fearing, U.S. Constitution believers as terrorists.


They DO have better things to do, but their leadership picks their battles. Every hour and every dollar spent on this is not spent doing what SHOULD be done instead.

So far a technical question (), where do most of us think the balance lies between posting our stickers and recruting/spreading the word to others (which is what I've chosen), and posting our stuff on ending up on this guy's list?
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 5:35:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 5:37:13 AM EDT by tenOC]
Were the first known Patriots on American soil terrorists when considering they were rebuking their government? Yes, I think they were. Good for them.

EDIT: I swear allegiance to my country, America. I didn't swear it to some anti-American individual or group. You should've asked if he had a bumper sticker that stated THE GOVERNMENT NEVER MAKES MISTAKES. I ALWAYS DO WHAT MY GOVERNMENT SAYS.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 5:51:43 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 5:56:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 7:51:09 AM EDT
If the Federal Government LEO's are after you, you won't be a free person for long. You can try not to be noticed. Perhaps using cash and hanging out in large crowds; but, with the advent of ever better technologies, I don't see how you'd last for long. If you leave any electronic signature, you're going to leave traces that can be followed. Heck, there's even some face recognition software that will allow a street camera to pick you out. As you're in law enforcement, you probably have a much better idea than most what will get you noticed.

Once you're noticed, you can turn and fight or give up and hope for mercy. Since most have families, most will choose to give up. Those who fight will almost certainly die

While I generally believe it's unlikely that most of the military or LEO's will turn against the population, there can certainly be a slow erosion. In essence, it's already started. We currently have a little slice of paradise on a base in Cuba where we're holding people without a day in court much less an actual conviction. Habeus Corpus has been suspended.

It's easy to destroy paradise in order to 'save' it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 8:08:38 AM EDT
The media would be your worst enemy
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 8:09:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 8:19:21 AM EDT by Taft]
Originally Posted By Paul:
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum.

I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions.

The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy.


I agree with TJ and Paul on this.

As along time LEO I can tell you we don't worry about the flag wavers and the bumper stickers.

(Nevermind on my door in my office at the police department is a Gadsen Flag with the words (We want Less Government - Less Taxes)

I work in a small community and we already know who the problem children are.

I am also a Terrorism Liason Officer (TLO) and I get the same breifings, blah blah blah ad naseum.

When I hear this crap, I just realize how lost our feds will be when the real SHTF.

I also know a lot of cops that will not follow their take guns/redistribute the food-water/fema camp crap.

Just remember, we prep for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI in spite of what the feds/state/local are doing.



Link Posted: 9/26/2009 9:01:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 9:24:01 AM EDT by amos1909]

Originally Posted By Sparks59:
Originally Posted By bmw20:
There is a pretty simple answer here.......but likely not the one you want to hear. Unfortunately, most would not survive, especially if they are also trying to keep a wife & kids alive.

One person cannot fight even 1% of what the Feds can bring to bear upon them. Even those of us that prepare and train with small groups of likeminded individuals would only be prolonging death.

Know what else? I wouldn't care. The day that the .gov targets me as a terrorist for exercising my god given and/or Constitutional rights is the day that I will happily pay for what I believe in with my blood. I would never attempt or even think about inflicting harm on the Country that I love - but I will also continue to believe that smaller gov't is better than larger gov't and freedoms are greater than restrictions. When I can no longer say these things without fear of retribution from the gov't, I don't think I would want to be around anyway.


You are quite right, we could not, we would not be able to survive, although I do not condone Waco Texas what David karesh was doing and I do not know but 10pct of the facts, the dramatization I saw, on the first day, the ATF and perhaps the FBI got its ass handed to them.

I remember Ruby Ridge, although very tragic to loose his wife, I think he was eventually vindicated.

It's amazing, we have known terrorists walking the street, gangs out of control, and the FEDS are worried about an abortion sticker.
Or don't tread on me. I think I would have told him, yeah you want to buy some. They do not intimidate me, because they work for me also.
I am a law abiding tax payer, loyal to the U.S. Constitution,not the marxist's we have now in govt.
Fellow Ar15.comers,

Thank you Dingeman for your post. It takes a lot of courage to step up and call you instuctor out like this. Thank you for reporting this to us....

I do wish we could get back to the simple times of yesteryear, in the time where we (even our leaders) all were proud to be Americans!! I live in the greatest nation that has ever existed and it seems that a lot of our current leaders hate it with a passion!!! I know that our freedom and constitution are under attack from every side. I love this nation and hate to see to her have to fight this fight for freedom! It is a fight worth fighting and must be fought by ALL !!! I long for a leader that will be willing to lead and not divide.... Free speech and the weapons to protect that right are what holds up the constitution and our freedoms!!!

I have been told by a lot of friends in law enforcement that have went they have been to briefings along the this same line. Most have so shocked by it that they just sat there and listened. I believe that most would reacted the same way, it is hard to know what to say in this situation. I know in my heart that this is what the other side wants. It is how they achieve their power and gain a foothold in our nation. History has many examples to this fact (Germany 1933).... But I believe it is time to quit being shocked at what they say and do.. We must be prepared to be willing to reacted to anything and all things said that goes against our freedom, rights our Constitution!!!

I believe all of us (not just L. E.) must be willing to stand (even when in shock) against this type of hate and fight for our country now. If we do not stand now we will not be willing to fight later. I am an inner-city pastor and I have learned (the hard way) that the best way for peace is to meet hostile force with stronger peaceful force (I have pulled my gun more in the last 10 months than in the previous 6 years). We must be willing to stand hard now and fight with words and peaceful actions. Otherwise, one of thes days we will have to fight a different type of battle and war. ..

We need some more George Washington's, Thomas Jeffersons, Benjamin Franklins, John Adams... Imperfect men for the birth of a great nation!!!! Men, we need to be willing to go back to that mind set that our forefathers had. That mindset was "be willing to sacrifice for others".

Men, lets be willing to stand (at any time, in any situation) and fight by speaking back for the rights we have!!!! No matter the sacrifice, we must now be willing to stand and fight back by speaking in public against the hate of our country, our freedom and our history!!! If we participate in this fight, this battle with words and actions, our next war (I pray and hope that it never happens) will be very bloody and costly one... We must weight the cost now, be willing to look a little foolish now and stand, or fight a bloody, terrible costly war later.

God Bless this great Nation,

Matthew Amos


P.S. (Edit added after I read this)... I not wanting revolution!!!
First let me say, Welcome to the site and Thank you for your service to your community and nation.

I will remind everyone, we here on AR15.com consider this a technical forum not a political forum. Encouraging revolution or even just a general government bash session will only result in this thread being locked. The avocation of an illegal action is a direct site rule violation.

As for personal advice, I remind everyone that this is a public forum

Everyone please keep their posts within forum rules and guidelines.


Thanks.

Tj

If I have violated the rules, please let me know and I will delete it.....

Thank you for the privilage of posting...

Amos1909
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 9:36:26 AM EDT
Ok, let keep this thread open for discussion shall we?

We've heard about this political profiling before. It was obvious that the .gov would continue to profile in this manner.

I believe in order to avoid experiencing your very own SHTF it would be wise to insure that there was nothing in your vehicle
that would put you in jeopardy.

Your GHB, trunk etc should be able to pass inspection. For instance, if you've got a trunk gun, make sure it's unloaded and the ammo is stored seperately. I would also suggest carrying targets, eye and ear protection.....that way one could say "I'm going to the range". If one has prescribed meds make sure they're with the original script issued from the pharmacy. In general, don't give them any cause to detain you.

All that being said, if one wants to show the colors don't let any one stop you. This is still a free country.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 9:57:46 AM EDT
Profiles are useful to a degree.... how many of the domestic terrorists were husbands and fathers? How many were actively involved in their local community? Almost all of them were loners - not engaged locally, not involved, etc.

Seems to me that life style choices say more about a persons' proclivities than what they may say politically.... impulse control.... a person who is OCD.... someone with 100 bumper stickers might be a little bit less self controlled than the guy with 2, don't you think?

The guy who has no stable relationship, no family, no friends.... probably has less to lose than the guy with lots of relationships, responsibilities, success in business, etc.

I'd be more concerned by some high school drop out, dishonorably discharged guy who can't keep a GF or wife, who has no kids and who is vociferous about politics than the guy who is a success, husband, father, etc. who has strong opinions.

On the other hand, how many of these would-be domestic terrorists wouldn't have done anything but for a false flag op by some undercover agent who provoked them and then 'supplied' them with some illegal substance or weapon? Maybe sowing seeds of doubt in any fringe groups makes sense (for example, if you can't trust anyone, it makes them less cohesive). On the other hand, if you've gotten inside to begin with, a couple of well placed people could keep them from going violent...could re-direct them towards less violent means or goals...

One would hope the 'professionals' think things through.... do you want to thin the herd or re-direct it? Or both?

Do you want to create enemies where none currently exist or move the goal post definitions as to what constitutes a threat so as to justify a bigger budget?

What makes someone a threat to the common good? Someone who is AFRAID of the government (or rather, AFRAID OF WHAT the other political party might do in power) but who otherwise has never broken a law, is involved with his neighbors, church, local civic organizations, etc. .... or someone who hopes to USE government to settle old scores? Which of the two is a true threat to peace?

Virtually everyone on this site seems to be part of the former, not latter group. Talk about no-knock raids and the basic reaction is fear and then anger, not hate and aggression. Fear at being placed in a no-win situation where someone might die needlessly and then anger that such things happen routinely and put fellow citizens in such catch-22 situations.....in which it's a 50/50 that the gang crashing the door at 2am is either a hostile gang....or the cops who misread the address. Anger at a tactic is hardly "anti-police" ideology.

Name the SHTF scenario and the premise of most people here is one of fear of the breakdown of law and order - the FEAR that the cops won't be around to maintain law and order....and so it'll be up to us to protect our families or businesses or both from looters, rapists, etc. etc. people who promote looting don't get very far here.... which means, we're not anarchists on this site.

Being against an ever expanding Federal government is not the same thing as being 'against government' or law. Failure to see the difference could cause untold number of needless problems.... but being politically against something is not the same thing as being armed and dangerous....

So one would think the pros realize that failure to distinguish or define terms as to what behavior constitutes a threatening pattern and which doesn't (or which is too vague to go on in and of itself) will lead to intolerable mistakes.

Chief on a strategic thinkers mind ought to be to avoid the unintended consequence of inspiring otherwise law abiding citizens to so fear the government (because of miscommunications or heavy handedness) to actually become the sort of threat they initially fear. This is why officers learn not to be hot heads.... come in too strong and you run the risk of alienating the populace, making them your enemies out of too much bluster, unjust treatment, etc. it's a fine line granted, but one that's essential to learn how to walk.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 10:08:35 AM EDT
Welcome to ARFCOM, Dingeman. As has been mentioned, that was quite an introductory first post. I hope you'll take a look at Oathkeepers. I know there are many LEO's like yourself around the country.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 10:37:49 AM EDT
JusAdBelum, all good points.

However, the fact is, the .gov did suggest profiling individuals who were practicing their First Amendment rights.

Link Posted: 9/26/2009 11:05:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Taft:
Originally Posted By Paul:
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum.

I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions.

The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy.


I agree with TJ and Paul on this.

As along time LEO I can tell you we don't worry about the flag wavers and the bumper stickers.

(Nevermind on my door in my office at the police department is a Gadsen Flag with the words (We want Less Government - Less Taxes)

I work in a small community and we already know who the problem children are.

I am also a Terrorism Liason Officer (TLO) and I get the same breifings, blah blah blah ad naseum.

When I hear this crap, I just realize how lost our feds will be when the real SHTF.

I also know a lot of cops that will not follow their take guns/redistribute the food-water/fema camp crap.

Just remember, we prep for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI in spite of what the feds/state/local are doing.





I agree entirely. I don't pay a bit of attention to these people either. In fact some of the guys think I'm crazy b/c I'll strike up conversations with people on traffic stops when I find out they are CCW holders. I'll ask them what they carry and thank them for taking the time / effort to do so. I'm not worried about the LEO at my level. The whole thing just made me wonder what was going on at the Fed level that all, plus it kind of became personal when the guy offered to put me on his list. At our end it was mostly mentioned to us for officer safety. Did I mention this whole thing was pre-Obama.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 12:01:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 12:04:26 PM EDT by TomJefferson]
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 2:50:11 PM EDT
OP - The lsit he suggested is close to the FBI brochure - to report suspicious terrorist activity, of 1996.

TJ - As former military, I feel the same way. I am still ready and willing to stand or die for the constitution, and the fair citizens of this country, and their freedoms, whether or not they agree or disagree with me. Freedom to be free, not to drive us to communism of any degree or sort.

It is also refreshing to have LEO here that believe in serving as well, and standing for what is right.

StagPower
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 3:10:42 PM EDT
I have a Nephew who is a State LEO in one of the North East states..he is in his mid 30's and buys all that you describe though he brushes off the ideal and just feels the State Knows what right for the PEOPLE not the other way around..

I dont talk to him often, I send him things I find, info I find and find to be the truth and pray he wakes up and awakens his brothers both of blood and of the shield..

I say each night,,

God Bless OUR Republic, and may we keep it...
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 5:39:29 PM EDT
I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said except that I believe that this is one of the best threads I have ever read on arfcom. Gives one hope for our country.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 6:01:54 PM EDT
Thanks, Dingeman.
Welcome!

I'm curious as to what number of militia members are succesfully prosecuted for violent crimes, or weapon violations annualy?
I'm thinking the ration is pretty low.



Link Posted: 9/26/2009 6:20:43 PM EDT
Welcome! I appreciate your dedication to our country. I believe most LEO's and military folk are pro USA and would uphold their oath to defend the constitution. It's encouraging to hear a voice that solidifies my belief. Keep up the good work and may God bless.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 6:47:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By runningman-2001:
Ok, let keep this thread open for discussion shall we?

We've heard about this political profiling before. It was obvious that the .gov would continue to profile in this manner.

I believe in order to avoid experiencing your very own SHTF it would be wise to insure that there was nothing in your vehicle
that would put you in jeopardy.

Your GHB, trunk etc should be able to pass inspection. For instance, if you've got a trunk gun, make sure it's unloaded and the ammo is stored seperately. I would also suggest carrying targets, eye and ear protection.....that way one could say "I'm going to the range". If one has prescribed meds make sure they're with the original script issued from the pharmacy. In general, don't give them any cause to detain you.

All that being said, if one wants to show the colors don't let any one stop you. This is still a free country.



I usually keep loaded mags in my vehicle but keep them separate from my handgun too. Does anyone know what laws are out there regarding

knives. Are these a problem with law enforcement if they are kept in the back of an SUV in a GHB? What about a combat hatchet in/near a GHB?

I usually keep one of these in my vehicle too, just in case of a serious SHTF event and I need to siphon gasoline from another vehicle. I guess I've

never given these items much thought with regard to law enforcement and a possible traffic stop. I guess I might be a little naive with regard to

this stuff.

Link Posted: 9/26/2009 7:11:16 PM EDT
I have friends who are FBI, others who work for other alphabet agencies... it sounds like this is a case of 'a' government official making a strategic mistake (maybe with help from political appointees?) in his 'profiling' criteria.... and hence, he needs help to see the error of his ways before good men on both side of the 'government' line get hurt needlessly.

Think about it. What fundamentally differentiates a federal agent from an armed citizen? .... you can't say training as many citizens are as well trained as any agent. You can't say hardware....many citizens are more well armed than most agents. so what is it?

It's who signs their pay checks.

Seriously. POTUS and all the federal bureaucracy under him feels perfectly safe with heavily armed men surrounding him, heavily armed men with scoped rifles on roof tops everywhere he goes..... because they work "for him".

Cops can carry firepower....why? Because they work for the local government...because the local government pays them for that service.

Joe Citizen isn't paid by anyone, if he's armed, he's armed on his own dime, and on his own initiative. That means he's not over a barrel. He's thus considered "a threat" by people who confuse mercenaries for patriots.

The Left/MSM reaction to the Tea Parties was very instructive....IN THEIR EXPERIENCE, crowds don't just spontaneously show up for things without some organization paying them to protest, busing them in, corralling them, directing them, etc.... astroturf via Unions, ACORN, or a hundred front groups all paid for by tax dollars.... so they ASSUMED that the same went for the tea-partiers....

Until somewhere in late August it occurred to them that no, they were dealing with people who weren't organized, weren't paid to show up, and so where genuine, were "the people".... were there out of self-initiative, and it scared them.

They couldn't control or bribe people who were showing up on their own initiative and own dime.

But if they were smart (which they're not), they'd have seen this movement for what it is and rejoiced that at long last the people were mobilizing 'for free!'

Ditto with misplaced profiling criteria.... the proper stance of an FBI or LEO in the face of otherwise law abiding citizens becoming armed, trained, and prepared for SHTF is to give them kudos and find ways to incorporate them into the structure of disaster planning, rather than alienating them.

If I was a LEO and had reasonable assurances that 10 or 100 vetted, citizens could be counted on to secure their neighborhoods, schools, churches, and businesses in the event of a loss of law and order, it would make my job much easier - I could focus on the truly unruly neighborhoods and zones where it's a no-mans-land in 'peacetime'.

If I was going to run a penetration op, I'd focus on 'turning' natural leaders away from illegality and violent means and towards civic minded civil defense goals.... yeah sure, lets play with guns, but let's all get GMRS radios and use, oh, say, this or that frequency for comms (which, duh, you then listen in on...) or get the younger hot heads to take a course in advanced first aid, liaison with some EMT guys, give them a peaceful outlet dealing with real people - fellow citizens - in need.... make it a truly 'self-defense' group as opposed to trying to sting someone into buying illegal stuff or get them to say something stupid.

Of course I'm coming from the perspective that governments and nations aren't eternal and civilizations have collapsed in recent history.... that even big empires have been invaded and wiped out.... and so a true patriot ought not take for granted any CURRENT situation of superiority.

We ought to be encouraging fellow citizens to be law abiders - both those who get paid by the government and those who "do the tax paying"... and government officials ought to be the most zealous in rooting out those who break the law or push the envelope Constitutionally....inasmuch as their entire career depends on the majority of the population supporting the premise that the Constitution is the ultimate legal authority and not the local judge, bureaucrat or politician.

It's always tempting - in every age and place and government system - for short sighted people to run the numbers and conclude that they don't need the moral authority of the law to govern...that sheer force is enough to keep the hoi poloi in check....and yet in every case, this backfires on them because people make mistakes, people are stupid or corrupt and so making enemies of the majority for a short term gain of power isn't too smart when your boss messes up and thus leaves you defenseless or de-funded just about the time the people you despised and so despoiled come over the hill gunning for a fight.

The majority is your ally, IF you operate under the same legal frame work they (we) live under. The moment government starts acting as though it's above the law....it loses moral authority and starts down the road to tyranny and ultimate defeat.

So.... ANY superior tells you to profile someone on a patently illogical basis.... HE IS THE THREAT TO THE CONSTITUTIONAL ORDER....not you, not Joe Citizen. And he needs to be called on this, corrected or massaged out of office (via the strategic 'leak' or the time honored "open mike" trick, the 'got caught being stupid" gaffe, or just exposing his OPINION for what it is: short sighted, counter productive, possibly illegal.....

Link Posted: 9/26/2009 7:24:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 7:33:44 PM EDT by JusAdBellum]
As for the OP.... local, city, county and state govenments' tax receipts are cratering... budgets are being cut.... state and local cops are being let go.... and it's entirely possible that the Fed. gov will go through their own cuts in the military, police, security details as well to pay for all the other give aways....

When that happens, and some yahoo gets a new policy in place that defines domestic terrorists as people who merely beg to differ... you're going to have huge numbers of truly trained, armed, and experienced men milling about waiting for leadership.

So do you want to DRIVE them into the hands of real anti-patriotic, anti-law and order demagogues by means of these profiles (and the policies, proceedures, etc. they produce) or do you want them to remain law abiding patriots, willing to obey the law and uphold it in their little corner of things because they feel a kinship with government employees inasmuch as we ALL in common follow the same rules?

The thing worse than a temporary SHTF is a true EOTWAWKI event - which could very well come sooner rather than later in the form of an economic collapse (not 100% unemployment either...it could begin with a more or less permanent re-set to 30% unemployment).

In such a scenario you want MORE people willing and able to uphold civilized norms of behavior from the crowds of people who are only held in check by the threat of law enforcement.... and of all the available population, where will the LEO or FBI find such folk if NOT precisely among those who are willing to take the time and spend their own money on the types of stuff and training we here do?

It's not a problem whether we disagree over healthcare, abortion, or foreign policy... as important as those issues are, the fundamental premise is....do we or do we not believe in "the rule of law"? I've seen no evidence that those on the right want to overthrow the rule of law! I see lots of evidence that they're afraid that the government is becoming lawless! So who is the patriot? who is the greatest threat to "law and order" or "the constitution" or America?

People who fear for the health of the Constitutional order....or people who think might = right?
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 7:47:26 PM EDT
Good post, bro. Thanks for doing what you do.
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 7:57:33 PM EDT
If the SHTF in a widespread area do you think the feds will even show- Nope they will be home with their kids/families.

I have been in a few military exercises, if something does happen, natural disaster, bombing, do you think we will all come running back to base, forgetting our families when they are in danger-nope. Every military commander recognizes it. The same will happen with the feds, even more so because they work in job, not a duty.

In a small scale event, sure they will round up people form all over and target one area, not imagine if 2-3 major cities got into a mess, there is no way in hell they could cover that.

If SHTF im not worried about the feds, Im worried about the guy next door/down the road causing problems
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 8:17:18 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Taft:
Originally Posted By Paul:
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum.

I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions.

The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy.


I agree with TJ and Paul on this.

As along time LEO I can tell you we don't worry about the flag wavers and the bumper stickers.

(Nevermind on my door in my office at the police department is a Gadsen Flag with the words (We want Less Government - Less Taxes)

I work in a small community and we already know who the problem children are.

I am also a Terrorism Liason Officer (TLO) and I get the same breifings, blah blah blah ad naseum.

When I hear this crap, I just realize how lost our feds will be when the real SHTF.

I also know a lot of cops that will not follow their take guns/redistribute the food-water/fema camp crap.

Just remember, we prep for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI in spite of what the feds/state/local are doing.





+1,000,000,000,000,000
Link Posted: 9/26/2009 9:44:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2009 9:50:15 PM EDT by Coolrunnings]
Originally Posted By tayous1:
Originally Posted By Taft:
Originally Posted By Paul:
Sounds like one rouge left-wing agent not following the curriculum.

I work as a fed for the DoD and get the annual briefings. We we travel we get more. And up until four years ago I sat at the table with the FBI, military intelligence and local law enforcements for the monthly threat updates. Nobody mentioned being a Christian or a patriot was an indicator to being a domestic terrorist though there was a peak in interest following Oklahoma City bombing by Timothy McVeigh 13 years ago. Our current training doesn't focus on appearance but rather actions and precursors - like buying bomb parts from FBI agents. I think lots of people look goofy or threatening but a darn fewer number are like the clowns in Springfield Illinois, New York City, Dallas Texas, and Boulder Colorado men arrested and charged this month. They weren't arrested for looks - they were arrested for their actions.

The police are going to be really busy if they start targeting people for carrying a bible, flying an American flag, or running a patriotic bumper sticker - really busy.


I agree with TJ and Paul on this.

As along time LEO I can tell you we don't worry about the flag wavers and the bumper stickers.

(Nevermind on my door in my office at the police department is a Gadsen Flag with the words (We want Less Government - Less Taxes)

I work in a small community and we already know who the problem children are.

I am also a Terrorism Liason Officer (TLO) and I get the same breifings, blah blah blah ad naseum.

When I hear this crap, I just realize how lost our feds will be when the real SHTF.

I also know a lot of cops that will not follow their take guns/redistribute the food-water/fema camp crap.

Just remember, we prep for the SHTF/TEOTWAWKI in spite of what the feds/state/local are doing.





+1,000,000,000,000,000




Right so you dont worry and brush it off, ... well acording to the post, someone else IS focused on the bumber sticker crowd!! , does that raise a flag... No?

49 other LEO sit on their hands and listen and do nothing and that is ok with you?


Riddle me this. If cops will not stand up when it is "easy", why would they when it is hard? Hmmmmm?

Link Posted: 9/27/2009 4:48:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/27/2009 4:49:44 AM EDT by itchytrigger]
I wonder if I should take the American flag sticker off my car.

<music>I'm proud to be an American where at least I know I'm (was once and might again someday be) free!<\music>


ETA: I mean Omerican
Link Posted: 9/27/2009 4:51:57 AM EDT
You, sir, are a great American. Also, i don't mean that in some sort of bullshit answer the phone kind of way.
Keep it coming and thanx for the info.

PS- 4 words: "watch you back , Jack"
Link Posted: 9/27/2009 4:53:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fiveby55:
You, sir, are a great American. Also, i don't mean that in some sort of bullshit answer the phone kind of way.
Keep it coming and thanx for the info.

PS- 4 words: "watch your back , Jack"


Link Posted: 9/27/2009 4:54:17 AM EDT
my first double tap. sorta
sorry
Link Posted: 9/27/2009 5:01:19 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Dingeman: Since he was trained by the Feds, I must assume they feel the same.


I'll just say... that my feelings sway more towards yours, than they agree with the mindset of my employer. I especially don't like being branded a domestic terrorist/ right wing extremist by our own Janet Notfromthisplanet.
Link Posted: 9/27/2009 5:09:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By batmanacw:
thank you for posting. We have known about this bias for a long time. Its interesting to here more confirmation.
Yep.

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