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buck19delta
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Posted: 12/15/2008 6:13:12 PM
is vacuum sealing ammo a good idea???? i mean ammunition has to has oxygen to work right. if you vac seal ammo, isnt there a good chance the vac will pull air out of the ammo casing???? im sure there is a good chance of it, im just wondering if you shoot ammo that has a vacuum inside it, if it will fire normally?????? maybe im just over thinking it. i vac sealed some ammo the other day, because its stored in a non climate controlled out building inside ammo cans and thought it would be a extra step towards protecting it.
BillofRights
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Posted: 12/15/2008 6:24:54 PM
Gunpowder, and other propellants do not need air to burn. This is why rockets are able to fly through water and outer space. It is also why the infamous underwater bump-firing commando was able to successfully blow up his AR.

I have been thinking of vacuum sealing my ammo also, so I'm interested in hearing what anybody else has to say on the issue.
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fugi99
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Posted: 12/15/2008 6:31:23 PM
Originally Posted By BillofRights:


I have been thinking of vacuum sealing my ammo also, so I'm interested in hearing what anybody else has to say on the issue.


I'm interested also

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buck19delta
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Posted: 12/15/2008 6:40:04 PM
[Last Edit: 12/15/2008 6:41:34 PM by buck19delta]
i vac sealed the ammo a layer at a time. i do not have 50,000 rounds like a lot of people, but, i do have a decent amount. i need a lot more though...a fat 50 ammo can holds 24 boxes a layer, of pmc .223 ammo..i vac sealed it by the layer. thats 480 rounds in a seal, which is a little much, i just didnt have enough bags to do it in 240 round batches. ill do that later. i also cleaned and oiled a mess of magazines, and vac sealed them to help prevent rust. i quit using break free for magazines, and started using spray can rem oil, because it coats everything a lot better. although wd-40 would probably work as well and is cheaper.
Amish_Bill
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Posted: 12/15/2008 7:26:02 PM
Originally Posted By buck19delta:
...i also cleaned and oiled a mess of magazines, and vac sealed them to help prevent rust. i quit using break free for magazines, and started using spray can rem oil, because it coats everything a lot better. although wd-40 would probably work as well and is cheaper.


You do understand that WD40 is not a long term protectant, but a short term water displacer, right?
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kevthebassman
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Posted: 12/15/2008 7:32:24 PM
It's been said, but just to underscore the point: The powder in your ammunition has all the oxygen it needs to burn completely. Your ammunition would fire in the vacuum of space.
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Posted: 12/15/2008 7:37:01 PM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
It's been said, but just to underscore the point: The powder in your ammunition has all the oxygen it needs to burn completely. Your ammunition would fire in the vacuum of space.


Maybe a few minutes after being exposed to a vacuum but after a while the pressure is going to escape from inside the casing and the oxygen along with it.

At least that's my opinion.
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kevthebassman
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Posted: 12/15/2008 7:44:15 PM
The powder it's self contains the oxygen, chemically bonded. The air in the case is not needed for combustion.
Sniperbait
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Posted: 12/15/2008 7:58:32 PM
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Originally Posted By buck19delta:
...i also cleaned and oiled a mess of magazines, and vac sealed them to help prevent rust. i quit using break free for magazines, and started using spray can rem oil, because it coats everything a lot better. although wd-40 would probably work as well and is cheaper.


You do understand that WD40 is not a long term protectant, but a short term water displacer, right?



I hope you also understand that penetrating oil can kill primers. Propane propellant in most spray cans can also kill ammo if exposed long term.
hqmhqm
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Posted: 12/15/2008 8:00:32 PM
I would not be surprised if gunpowder does slowly get degraded in the presence of oxygen. If you want the gunpowder to
last a hundred years or more, maybe vacuum sealing would help.


Cyclic
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Posted: 12/15/2008 8:01:04 PM
I repackaged some ammo for long storage. Standard 20 round boxes hold 60 rounds nicely with the holder removed. I then vacume packed each box for protection and placed several in a ammo can. Works great.
Delmarksman
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Posted: 12/15/2008 8:28:36 PM
re: vacuum sealing.
Done it for years, never had a problem.
I think that it helps to keep everything dry and fresh.

BTW, Oxygen is not the problem, moisture is.

WD 40 is not designed as a longterm protectant and it WILL destroy your ammo.
buck19delta
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Posted: 12/15/2008 8:38:38 PM
[Last Edit: 12/15/2008 8:41:05 PM by buck19delta]
i would never expose ammo to any oil. i only oiled the empty magazines for long term storage ..and your right about wd-40 being a short term lube.( i had forgotten), i lubed a swiss army knife with wd-40, and stored it in a plastic bag in my atv storage compartment. a few years later i decided to use it....... nope..... the wd-40 dried out, and turned into a glue , i tried to clean it with maany different things, but it completely ruined the knife. ill stick to the rem oil, or buy spray break free........ ..
writerdeluxe2006
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Posted: 12/15/2008 8:49:24 PM
Originally Posted By hqmhqm:
If you want the gunpowder to
last a hundred years or more, maybe vacuum sealing would help.



This experiment is going to suck to have to wait for the results.
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kevthebassman
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Posted: 12/15/2008 9:04:32 PM
You don't have to do your own experiment. Real black powder especially, and nitro-cellulose powders, last a long time.

Just this year a collector got killed by some civil war ordinance he dug up. A shrapnel shell exploded as he was working on it. Not something that was stored with care somewhere, this was a shell he dug up out of the clay.

Farmers in France are always digging up WWI ordinance, bomb squads have to come out and dispose of it. Not sure of any specific instances of them being killed, but I imagine it happens.
Paul
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Posted: 12/15/2008 9:41:09 PM
I hope you also understand that penetrating oil can kill primers.


I've heard that said but tried to kill some 9mm that I had rolled myself and couldn't. Seems that seal between the primer and cartridge wall is tight enough to protect the primer - at least for the few days that I tested the ammo.

On the vacuum sealing of ammo I don't get it. Keep the stuff dry and that's about it. I've shot ammo dating back 20-30 years and have .22 LR bricks ten years old that all go pop on the first shot. US military surplus cans seem pretty good at keeping ammo fresh enough.
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TaylorWSO
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Posted: 12/15/2008 9:45:09 PM
No need to vacuum seal it.

hell old WW2 stuff shoots just fine and it hasn't been vacuum sealed.

It wont hurt but its not needed
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Feral
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Posted: 12/15/2008 9:51:54 PM
Originally Posted By TaylorWSO:
No need to vacuum seal it.

hell old WW2 stuff shoots just fine and it hasn't been vacuum sealed.

It wont hurt but its not needed


I agree......I've always thought that the bags would fail long before any benefit in terms of storage life was derived.

OTOH, I can see a role for vac packing if you just want to make some handy "ammo bricks" for toting ammo here or there.
Mach
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Posted: 12/15/2008 10:26:26 PM
I vacuum sealed all my Ak, AR and .308 ammo in home made battle packs. The AK and AR ammo is in 240 round vacuum sealed packs in the original 20 round boxes. So far it has worked great.
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Cyclic
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Posted: 12/15/2008 11:45:54 PM
Yeah Feral, that was part of it. Wanted a easy to transport system. Water proof and easily handled. I can throw a block or two in my pack and have a pretty good load out. Two "bricks" gives me 120 extra rounds. I do keep some loaded magazines in my gear but I go more with a minimalist set-up. Three loaded mags is plenty for any "action" I for see away from home. And the bricks give me the ability to reload the magazines as needed.
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Posted: 12/16/2008 1:03:22 AM
rightwingnut
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Posted: 12/16/2008 4:18:09 AM
WD40 is more of a solvent than a lubricant or preservative oil.

I don't think that O2 is bad for gun powder. Moisture would be the problem. You could just put dessicants in the ammo can. Or, seal it in mylar bags I guess if YOu don't have ammo cans.
rightwingnut
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Posted: 12/16/2008 4:26:42 AM
you can vacuum pack very well w/ mylar or other iron close bags w/ a peice of tubing & you ability to suck. You could probably get your mom to help you if you want a better vacuum

Put your shit in the bag, iron it closed but leave about 3/8" un sealed. Stick the tubing down in there, pinch the bag closed w/ your finger tips on either side of the tube & suck out the air. Carefully hold the bag tight on the tube & then withdraw the tube till it comes out & pinch the bag flat so air doesn't get in. Then iron it closed.

It's not that hard. The vacuum is pretty good. Used w/ O2 absorbers it is excellent.

You can also use those oil elevator pumps w/ the tubing in a similar manner.
TomJefferson
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Posted: 12/16/2008 8:12:29 AM
Obviously excessive moisture in the presence of oxygen is a bad thing. In general though, powder should not degrade just exposed to oxygen. It would need either water or heat (very hot) to initiate the reaction.

Ammunition simply stored in a box in a cool dry place will keep for decades upon decades.

The advantage one can expect would be the same as the military does with battle packs as a moisture barrier and carry/segregation system.

I currently store my ammunition simply in an ammo can that is in a climate controlled including humidity area, however any ammunition I would or do store in say a cabin and non-controlled environment it would be a sealed plastic mainly just as a moisture barrier.

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ilbob
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Posted: 12/16/2008 9:43:27 AM
I don't see how it can hurt it any.

The big advantage I see to storing it this way is in case of a flood the ammo is protected from water.
shibumiseeker
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Posted: 12/16/2008 10:05:41 AM
Originally Posted By kevthebassman:
You don't have to do your own experiment. Real black powder especially, and nitro-cellulose powders, last a long time.

Just this year a collector got killed by some civil war ordinance he dug up. A shrapnel shell exploded as he was working on it. Not something that was stored with care somewhere, this was a shell he dug up out of the clay.

Farmers in France are always digging up WWI ordinance, bomb squads have to come out and dispose of it. Not sure of any specific instances of them being killed, but I imagine it happens.


Some WWI and II ordnance has an almost indefinite shelf life as the explosive charges used were either short lived enough that within a decade or two they were
harmless, or they used cast explosives such as TNT that basically will last forever.

There is no real advantage and some minor disadvantage to vacuum sealing modern
propellants. The plasticizers and solvents used can be drawn out more quickly
under a vacuum. If the packaging develops leaks it can draw in moisture. The best
long term storage is actually sealed in oxygen-purged, slightly pressurized
containers. Dry nitrogen is the best purge agent.

Regardless, modern ammunition will last your lifetime, and your kid's lifetime
in unsealed containers if kept cool and dry.
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