My lab pup is doing very well. He can do basic obedience now with a moderate distraction.

The stay command is getting reinforced often when we leave the house and I make him stay on the porch, he occasionally breaks and tries to follow the car and I get out and give him a small swat on the butt and tell him to stay, then he will go back up and sit and watch us drive off.

He is enthusiastic about retrieving dummies and dead birds also, but it is time to work on non-retrieve training, having him stay while I retrieve the bird, and teaching him to only break on command.

I am adamant about getting this right, my friends dog was ruined by his kids throwing the stick for it without making him heel and stay. Now every time birds come in he breaks before they even hit the water and often before we even shoot, he has almost been peppered by guests before. It is also very annoying when the birds aren't committed and he goes for them before they drop into shooting range.

Can I do basically the same as I do when we leave. Give him the stay command, toss the bird, then give him a little swat if he breaks early, or while I retrieve. I don't want him to lose any enthusiasm about the retrieve. I have been trying hard to let him get feathers in his mouth by tossing out a dead bird, letting him retrieve and then going for a walk while he carries it.

I find it hard to believe that you value this dog and are adamant on training it, yet you fail to secure it when you leave it unattended.

I didn't read anything about whoa? How far along on the whoa command are you?

Whoa training is the first priority it starting a gun dog.

As for the physical punishment used to discourage unwanted behavior I'm not a fan as I have seen very few people who don't let their emotions take over from time to time.  If you can use physical punishment without becoming emotional then maybe.  Then it really depends on the dog.  Some dogs respond to it, others do not.

Honestly it sounds like you need check rope and whoa training.

Invisible fence, doesn't stop him from following us down the driveway though.

He has a dog door into the house so him and the coon dog can come and go as they please.

Don't jump to conclusions so quickly.

I didn't even know that was a thing.

I have always had scent hounds, this is my first lab, it's a new world to me.

I ordered a book on water dogs, we will get through it. I have trained lots of hounds, labs seem like a walk in the park on obedience. I'm not used to the desire to please. Really speeds things up.

I do need help with the retriever specific training though.

He just turned 17 weeks so we are starting to transition from playing to working. The timing kind of stinks because the season ends in a week. But he has been to the blind a few times. I don't want him out there much with the other dog though learning bad habits. His old dog was rock solid, but passed awhile ago.

Okay no big deal.  Everyone has to start somewhere.  

I know I made all sorts of mistakes my first go around...maybe someone can learn from my screw ups

If you don't have one get a 50 and 100 foot check rope.  Get some pallets or build some raised boxes your dog can stand on.  Don't make them tall 2-3 inches is fine.  The raised boxes/pallets are very important in the beginning because the dog learns easier with spacial recognition.  

Starting whoa is easier as a puppy but no big deal to do with a grown dog.  You can incorporate whoa into every day activity.  Taking your dog to the bathroom, going outside, even during a TV commercial.

Here is what I did.  Place the dog on the pallet or box, with your hand raised say whoa.  Make sure your command is calm but assertive.  The dog will get off the raised platform and without saying anything you must pick the dog up and place the dog back on the raised platform.  Never drag or lead your dog back to the raised platform, always pick up and place.  This may take hundreds of times.  Once back on the platform raise your hand and say whoa.  Simply repeat until the dog stays on the platform.  Starting off I keep my hand raised and repeat whoa in a very calm voice.  You should be able to walk around your dog  and the dog won't move before moving on to the next step,

Not the next step but you can't do this until the dog honors the command for the first time.  You need to come up with a release method.  Never ever, ever make it so your release method mimics a "come" command.  That will set you up for all sorts of problems.  Instead walk behind the dog and with a light touch either on the back or behind the head say your release word.  Some will use words like "okay"...nothing wrong with that until someone in a hunting situation says "okay' in normal conversation and your dog takes that as the release command.  I use an off the wall word for my release word "pretzel" so nobody accidentally releases the dog.  

The next step is to enforce the whoa command and graduate from the raised platform.  Still using the raised platform attach a check rope.  The shorter 50 foot one works best for this.  Whoa your dog.  Walk a circle around your dog, saying whoa, drop your hand, move around some more.  If your dog gets off the board place them back on and repeat a simple whoa command, don't do all the walking around, do a a release, and praise.  Then repeat the whoa command with walk around, keep repeating those two situations until your dog gets it.  When your dog honors the whoa command when you are walking around do a release and praise.  Now for the graduation from the raised platform.  Whoa your dog and with the check rope, lightly pull/tug on the dog.  If the dog comes off the board, place back on the board and repeat until the dog resists being pulled off the board.  Don't pull too hard just enough to feel the dog give some resistance.  When your dog does that, go give the release command and praise.

Now take the board away and repeat all the steps without the board.  You may have to go back to the board multiple times.  Remember to never get upset or angry with your dog and always end the day on a positive note.  Your dog will probably only have 15-30 minutes of attention when doing this.  What I do is take every opportunity to do the whoa training.  When I do go out for a session bring something to do between training sessions.  Throw the decoy bumper for 20 minutes, do 20 minutes of whoa training, throw the decoy bumper, do another 20 min of training.  

I will post how to use whoa posts and how to whoa bird train if you are interested.

Thanks.

Can you explain what the purpose of the whoa command is, in what situations would it be used?

After I got home last night we did some training with the dummy. I have a set of mallard wings taped on it right now.

He is a smart little bastard and the stay command seems pretty solid so far. I started off with having him sit on my left side while I tossed out the dummy and then giving the stay command and waiting for the command to retrieve, he did very well and didn't break early once, but remained excited to retrieve.

Then I would throw it and begin to walk to retrieve myself, he broke on the first time and I picked him up and put him back and told him stay once more. He waited until I returned and I praised and rewarded. After that each time I went out for a retrieve he would sit and hold without the stay command and I would praise and reward when I returned. I went about 50/50 with releasing him and retrieving myself. I didn't use the stay command for the second half of the session and he held on his own.

This is only over 30-40 yards in the lawn though, with the other dog locked in the house. I want to give him some time before introducing too many distractions. Hunting ends pretty soon and hopefully I finish up the job I am on by the end of the month and I can get a solid month or two of hard work in before spring work starts up. I figure once he has the foundation of it in his head then a short session each morning through the spring and summer should help get him polished up.

Whoa is more or less the foundation from which you build all other commands from.  It is kind of a catch all.  It teaches spacial awareness, acts as a safe word, and several other things.  One of the most important things it that it does, it brings a dogs mind back under your control...that will be more apparent when you move on to the whoa posts and bird training with whoa.

Some practical situations.  You have ducks coming into your decoys.  You can see your dog is getting excited, a whoa command brings his focus back in to what you want him to do, not what he wants to do.  It does this by being a spacial exercise.  Think back to when you were using the whoa board/platform, dogs need to focus on one thing when it comes to spacial exercises, so the whoa command is bringing that focus back to a spacial situation where you have far more control.

Another would be your dog is out on a retrieve...you get some more ducks coming in, you need your dog to stop, whoa is perfect for this.  Also if you need to direct a dog to a fallen bird and your dog is off in his own world, whoa can be used to get your dog stopped and start paying attention to your hand signals.  

Stay is a needed command but I would focus more on whoa to begin with.  Stay has always been a finishing command for me, other people may differ.  You can make stay a spacial exercise but you are making that much more work for you because you will eventually need whoa.

That makes a lot of sense then. I wish the other dog was taught that one.

Next time I am at the hardware store I will grab 50 ft of cord and make a lead.

Should I continue to have him stay on the dummy retrieves and simply do separate sessions for whoa?

He is good for about 20 minutes per session right now then I can tell he gets a little brain fried so I let the other dog out so they can just wrestle for a awhile.

I don't think it will hurt as you are this far along to do both but I think you need to do whoa training as a separate exercise from the beginning.  Just make sure you don't use the come come command with whoa, always use the release command.  Nothing wrong with throwing the bumper and then doing some whoa training, do the whoa training until your dog loses interest, go back to throwing the bumper, rinse repeat.

Once you get a little bit of whoa training down  would suggest working that in to your bumper training.  I can post who I use the whoa post and live birds with if you would like...kind of long if you don't mind the long read?

Good thread. I have a 17 week old GSP.

That would be great, I've been following this thread and I am getting great info for my cocker pup. Thanks so much!

Long post so I apologize in advance.

So you have whoa training down, your dog no longer needs the whoa box/platform.  I say that with a little bit of apprehension because your dog will always need some polishing up.  Some days you might have to break back out the whoa board and start from scratch.  It is very important that you don't get frustrated, upset, mad, etc... whoa is about putting a dog back into a controllable state of mind.  If you aren't in control of yourself your dog will not be in control.

This is generally where most people introduce their dog to e-collar.  A personal opinion here, I use e-collars but I use them as little as possible.  I don't like them for a couple reasons.  Most hunting dogs do not respond well to negative stimulus, they are bred to please.  Most hunting dogs will all but die inside if you look cross ways at them, too much negative stimulus can and has ruined dogs.  Most people cannot administer a shock without letting emotions get in the way.  We are only human, are dogs are pissing us off, having a bad day training, it is easy to hit that button and whether you think it or not your dog knows when you are upset at it.  We are not trying to enforce pack dominance here, we are trying to get a dog back to a calm state of mind.  Most people crank the juice way too high as well.  I have found that the lowest setting and many times the vibrating or beeping setting is enough to snap their mind back to attention.  Again all we are trying to do is get their mind back to a controllable state.  I will say this as well, many top notch trainers that know a hell of a lot more about training dogs than I do use e-collars and swear by them.  So I only have a couple of dogs under my belt, take my opinion on e-collars for what it's worth and maker your own decision.  

Your next step in whoa training is the whoa post.  Many people use garden stakes, sunken fence posts, trees, even traffic or light post.  It just needs to be a post in the ground that can handle a rope and the weight of your dog.  I like to start all sessions by running off some steam.  Let your dog run, throw the bumper, etc....get that dog a little tired.  Then I start with something the dog knows.  Do a regular whoa routine without the board.  If that goes well you can start the post training.

Attach your check rope but this time make a small loop around the dogs waist and then hook to the collar as normal.  Make sure the rope coming back stays out of between the dogs legs.  That will cause nasty rope burn for the dog.  I will try to post pics sometime in the future to better illustrate this.  I would also wear a good set of gloves, many check ropes pick up all sort of thorns, those are not fun on the hands.  I like to start with just one post.  Start out by giving your dog 10 yards of rope.  Let them run full tilt, don't worry about them pulling you, we are not worried about heeling the dog we want the dog to be in full tilt run mode.  In what I like to call controlled chaos, semi direct your dogs run so that he will be on one side of the post and you will be on the other.  You can work hand signals in if you like but don't stop the run to reinforce.  Continue to walk through the post as if the post was not there as soon as your rope gets tight give the whoa command. You can give a little tug so that the rope pulls the dog back a bit.  If the dog whoas go buy a lottery ticket...the dog just bridged the gap from whaoing in a stagnate spacial area and stopping in a moving spacial area.  If this happens to you on the first time...I hate you

More than likely it will not happen and your dog will be mad and start biting the check rope.  Walk over quick but remember to be calm and pick your dog up and place them in the approximate spot they were when you gave the whoa command.  Continue calmly repeating the whoa command and I like to have my hand raised as well.  Do a release and repeat the exercise until your dog gets it or loses interest.  

This was the most frustrating and challenging part of training in my opinion.  It took weeks before my dogs got this.  It is kind of a tedious exercise in my opinion but very necessary.  Setting up a whoa post course is nice.  If you just have one or two posts the dog will only whoa on those one or two posts.  Also as you successfully get whoa's give the dog a little more rope every time.  I usually move on to the next step when I reach 35-40 feet. Many people will introduce the e-collar at this point.  Most people apply the stimulus when a dog fails to whoa after the command and tug are given.

The last part of whoa post training is graduating from the actual post.  By this point you should be able to let the dog run on the check rope at full length, when you give the whoa command the dog at most should require a little tug.  when your dog is whoaing with consistency leave the check rope on but let the dog run free, when the dog is whoaing like this take away the rope all together and work on moving whoa with no check rope.

This process takes a very long time.  Some days you are going to start from square one as in bring out the board and forget the moving exercise.  Remember to always keep your calm, this training is counter productive if you lose your cool.  Always end the training session on a positive training note, make sure to give praise, and allow the dog to have some play time.  At most your dog will have 45 minutes of focus time without a play break, more realistically you have 20 minutes of focus time to work with.  So break it up, play time, training, play time, rinse repeat.  Sometimes you just have to hang it up for the day.  Your dog has gotten on your last nerve, do something simple so you can end on praise and go drink a beer.

I will post more on whoa training with live birds later.

doubled

So you think an invisible fence is not a proper way to secure a dog?

I'm absolutely positive that an invisible fence is not a proper way to secure an unsupervised dog.

This should be pretty clearly illustrated for you by the fact it is ineffective at keeping him on your property.

Thanks for the great info, appreciate  you taking the time. What should I do if my dog sits on the woah platform? I have been correcting him to stand back in the place he started, is that right?

I never said he goes off the property, I don't find it acceptable for him to escort me down the driveway when we leave. The other dog doesn't do it and I won't allow him to do it either.

I used to chain my hound but after installing the fence he is much better behaved as he can burn energy through the day by patrolling the borders, digging up and moving his bones and toys and having some room to run around.

I have no neighbors and anyone other than the mail man that comes here has no business being here anyway. The dogs can come inside if it is too hot or cold and they keep an honest person honest should they try to get into the house while I am not home.

Has your dog been taught to sit already?  If so unfortunately your pup is just getting a little confused.  You can do a couple things.  Drop the sit command for a bit.  Keep correcting when your dog sits down.  Keep doing what you are doing, one day your dog will get it.

If that doesn't work you may want to try skipping to the movement whoa exercise and see if you get the same problem.

I have some other suggestions but let's see if the simplest solutions solve the problems first.

He does know sit, very well. I will try your advice and post back. We will see how he does today. Thanks beardog!

Go buy the book Water Dogs.   Follow it to the letter.  Problem solved.  You will have a life long hunting partner and a dog you will be proud of.

Order this: Water Dog

I bought a copy when I got my first Lab back in the 70's.

I approached it from a different direction.

Do NOT pointedly train the non-retreive. Train the force retrieve, which the antithesis is the non-retrieve. If he/she is instructed to retrieve only when told, cleaning up any sloppy non-retrieve takes very little physical correction.

Edit:  The only "problem" I have is that I let him have fun and be a dog 95% of the time, so if someone wants to throw a ball for him to retrieve, I let him go get it.  It just means that I have to do a couple sessions of force retrieve afterward to make sure he's not getting routinely lazy.

I would check out the huntsmith videos I am currently watching them to put to use when my pup finally arrives.

I had one dog poisoned in our yard and where my friends live in NJ they are having a rash of dogs stolen out of people's yards.



the fatty in the right rear died a few days after someone loaded the pig foot in her mouth with rat poison and tossed it over the fence to her.