Some backpacking pistol musings.  I’m constantly trying to find the balance of packing a pistol without adding too much weight.  I originally started with a Glock 23.  I know it’s odd, but I typically carry .45 ACP or 9mm for my concealed carry, but I really like the performance of the 40S&W 200 grain hardcast rounds for backcountry use.  I’m not trying to drudge up the debate about carrying for backpacking or even whether it’s concealed or open carry…that’s a personal decision and often influenced by locations and activity.  My goal was to find a lighter pistol that I felt comfortable with.  This is really geared to the lower 48 and not serious “bear repellant”; actually, it’s more for the two-legged predators but still viable for the rabid dog. Another consideration is where I’ve actually steered away from double-stack pistols.  The capacity is actually a detractor and adds more weight.  The single-stack pistols can weigh less with an extra magazine or speed strip for the revolvers.  There will always be trade-offs and this weight gets calculated into my total backpacking weight, so ounces do matter. The search will never be over, but I’m really liking the S&W Shield in .40S&W.  I could and have slimmed down to a diminutive P32 in .32 ACP or the Ruger LCP in .380, but I still prefer a more substantial caliber and accept the weight penalty. Here’s a few comparisons and different pistols I’ve tried over the past several years:



Pistol Weights:

Kimber Ultra Carry, .45ACP:




Glock 23 .40S&W:



Charter Arms Bulldog Pug, .44SPL:




Glock 26, 9mm:



S&W M&P Shield, .40S&W:




Kahr CW9, 9mm:




S&W Model 438, .38SPL:




I was just going through my pack from this last trip and wanted to do some comparison weights.  I carry my pistol in an HPG Kit Bag for reference and my goal is to keep the entire contents right around four pounds including the pistol/ammo.







ROCK6

I used to be a big time revolver fan for these purposes but I'm growing away from the idea. Semi autos are just so much faster and if you see a bear or hillbilly charging you you're going to be better off making lots of hits than hoping for one 44 mag to connect with the target. Just my opinion. I know 44 mag wasn't on the table here, I'm just saying. I like the choice of 40 cal in a full size gun. I even carry 9mm and some bear spray up here in idaho.

Rock.

Nice write up.
I picked up a HPG Recon, probably
from one of your review threads, to
carry a pistol while hiking. I usually
carry my USP .40, but sometimes
a P99, either will always have an
extra mag. I love that bag and I have
mine similarly outfitted like yours.

Not to detract from you write up,
but I read a quote many years
ago relating to the size, capacity,
caliber, etc, of defensive handgun
choices.

"Would you rather have a handgun
that is comfortable, or one that is
comforting."

Comfortable is my NAA .22 Mag
mini revolver. Small, light weight,
immensely easy to carry, so I carry
almost 24/7, except for work, of course.
I am usually carrying a full size gun,
9mm will be the smallest, a .40 or
.45 would be my preference, but
they will definitely be double stacks.

Not a ding, just throwing in my $.02.

Later!

John

Thanks for the feedback and good insight.  This is where I have to make some tougher decisions, especially with weight.  Comforting can often weigh more than comfortable, but I'm just trying to find that happy medium.  Most distance backpacker barely consider mini folding knife let alone a handgun, so my intent is to just maintain comforting without making too much weight uncomfortable.  My wife did a 60 miles section before I linked up for the last 50 miles, but she was solo and only had her little KT PAT 380...I wasn't exactly comfortable, but it was a trade-off for her.  So, yes there is some risk, but I'm trying to find that right balance for distance hiking...

ROCK6

You could save a little weight with your ammunition.   Check out the Liberty civil defense ammunition.  Kind of the opposite of the heavy hard cast you are running, it is not likely to be a good choice for penetration, but some food for thought anyway.

I've been keeping an eye on the solid copper ammo...very interesting.  Thanks for the recommendation...that's a good alternative and something to consider when really counting ounces.  Of course, if I was really serious, I could cut 4-5 pounds of body weight and not worry about it  

ROCK6

I carry my g23 when I home or backpack. For me it's the perfect size/weight balance while still giving me 14rds. I hike all over Washington and Oregon.

It's mainly as a firecracker against potential predators and the odd wierdo I might come across in the middle of nowhere.

Yeah, I don't know.  I've had extremely excellent performance from Double Tap's Hardcast 200 grain rounds.  Those are some serious thumpers and with 13-14 rounds, it will make the most threatening, lower-48 critter think twice after a half dozen rounds to the noggin.  I actually feel adequately armed with 9mm or a .38 SPL; anything bigger is just icing.  

ROCK6

Double damn post!

I carried my AR last time I went hiking, only issue I had was that I didn't have proper provisions on my pack, so the pack was off balance. Aside from that, it wasn't very noticeable, my backpack weight was probably about 45lbs w/ rifle. I've since got a new pack, and it's more focused for tactical use, so it will be easier to affix a rifle. I know it's a far cry from a hand gun, but I'm generally interested in how much the differences in weight affect the experience?

My trip was about 21 miles in a two days, up and down twice along the mountains of Grayson Highlands, and it was a great little trip. I think the worst part was my needing to shit 3 miles from the nearest out house

This is what I have settled on when weight is an issue;



Usually just carry 44 spc in it, but you can step up when needed.  My high volume shooter is a Ruger Redhawk.  This is my "carry a lot, shoot a little" gun.

Doc

I have a Hill People chest pack that I carry a p226 in .40sw if I'm going to be in cougar country. I have a Radom p64 for the smaller stuff. Before I go to Alaska next year I am hoping ot have saved up for one of these. Not light, but it should be capable of preventing me from getting fired at work for being bear scat.

Both those choices are better suited for bear country...I love that S&W 329; for a 44 mag, it's pretty darn light!  The Sig in 10mm is quite interesting; if it can handle the hotter loads, it would be a real winner in bear country.  I've packed my 5.5" barrel Redhawk; it just barely fits in my Kit Bag, but she's a heavy brute for sure!

ROCK6

What is the fixed blade knife?

Ceramic blade?

John

No, simple VG10...it's a Fallkniven WM1.  

ROCK6

I have to backpacking guns....my heavy gun (Ruger GP100 .357 SS revolver) and my light gun (Kel-Tec PF9).  It all depends on where I'm hiking, how long I will be out, what the weather will be like, and what mood I'm in....as far as which one I take with me.

Good post Rock; I appreciate the thought and pictures you put into it. Finding what works and what's best takes some time and careful thought. The last couple years I have honed down my backcountry carry to my G19 and a spare mag. Most of my hunting partners carry 500 smiths or 44mags in chest rigs- this is Alaska. But I feel perfectly safe and contented with my lowly 9mm. I am usually an hour or more off the road system in the woods chasing bears, moose, or camping and while the threat of a grizzly is always there I find myself more concerned with confronting an upset person.

I shoot my glock with a high degree of proficiency and that was the deciding factor for me over a larger bore revolver or auto. Thankfully it meets many of the other criteria I considered for a woods gun- lightweight, reliable, durable, comfortable, lowish cost, and it goes everywhere else with me- why not the woods?

I am still looking for the right way to carry it. I'm not a fan of chest holsters- just not for me, drop legs snag too easily on alders and seem to chafe my thigh after a few days, that's left me with a raven phantom on my hip. My issue with hip carry is my pack belt gets in the way when it's loaded down; I either need an unloaded belt for my pack or a way to easily switch from belt carry to mounting it on a pals panel or similar on my pack.

I couldn't zoom in enough to
see the logo on the blade.

Thanks!

John

Alaska is a different animal altogether, but as TJ mentioned, it's better to have something you can access than the most powerful hand cannon left in the truck or bottom of your pack.  I'm not sure of the type of pack you have but I did a lot of transitioning with a Blade-Tech holster in A'Stan; from my pant's rigger belt in garrison to a MOLLE adapter on my pack (Kifaru or Mystery Ranch) and then a separate holster on my IOTV; basically chest mounted as transportation modes interfered with anything around the waste.  If you're pack can take an adapter, that would be ideal; once in camp and you're not wearing your pack, you could swap to your pant's belt.




Thanks TJ; these choices often require a little more experimentation, especially if your activities are quite varied.  Backpacking, like other activities involve some compromises and the constant struggle with weight, access and performance needs.  My wife has done a few solo hikes and for her longer treks, she's downsized to the diminutive Kel-Tech P3AT in .380.  She's used a few different holsters, but often uses a custom one that attaches to her bra under her arm.  It doesn't bother her when hiking 10-15 miles a day, which is probably the more important factor and it takes some practice to access quickly; very much a compromise.  However, the irony is that she's felt the need for the pistol more often in shelter or hostiles than on the trail.  It's definitely not for four-legged protection, but for the nefarious predators that hang out around shelters.  

Most people on the trail, if fact 99% of the other hikers we've encountered are quality people.  We've only had a couple issues with non-hikers hanging out around shelters (we never sleep in those shelters) from nearby towns.  Most are harmless, just wanting to shoot the poop and smoke dope.  We have run across a couple very mentally disturbed hikers, but were always able to avoid.  Again, my choices are really not needed for animal protection, but for the greater potential of two-legged predators or whackos.  Most hikers scoff and that those who carry a handgun; that's their opinion.  I may never need to pull my handgun for self defense, but I do know that extra weight is worth the quality sleep I get at night...to me it's worth it even if it's a five-shot J-frame or six-shot 9mm.  My choices have proven both comforting and comfortable for me and where we hike, but the search will always continue!

ROCK6

I run around with either a mollex or an older ilbe when moose hunting. Thanks for the tip on the holster; love my phantom as I've been using it forever but it may be time to find a better option. Thanks for the reply ROCK.

I use the 5.11 mesh with MOLLE ( I wish they still made them), the mesh helps in warmer temps. It's not perfect, I'm still open for something "better", if it exists....

I agree with you.  I always read you need a 357 revolver, 44 revolver, 10mm Glock, etc.  I crunched all the numbers, did the math, figured out I wanted smaller, and easier to shoot.  I chose an HK P2000SK in 40 SW, with Doubletap's WFNGC.
I feel it is a well thought out compromise that better meets my needs.  

When I was younger I tried a variety of different handguns before settling on a five shot 642 for most of my hiking and backpacking.  There's nothing on four legs that really worries me in the lower 48 and five rounds of .38 should handle most encounters I can actually envision; I carry an extra five rounds on a Speed Strip.  Last year I bought a 3" 360 so I'd have the option of .357s and a lighter weight but I still need to find a camera case to put on my pack belt to carry it.

It's hard to beat a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog stuffed with 200 gr. Winchester Silver-tip Hollow Points.

For open carry with a pack, that is a great setup; I remember you posting this a while back. Finding the "perfect" setup isn't likely to happen, all options have advantages and disadvantages; however, finding something that works best for your activities by balancing access, security and comfort comes down to personal preferences.  Regardless of open or concealed carry, the chest area is the best way for me to carry with a pack which gives me both comfort and quick access.  



Good choice.  I have a 9mm P2000SK, but I do like the extra kick the .40S&W provides.  For the lower 48, I really think 9mm and .38spl would suffice for 99% of scenarios.  There are places where larger calibers are more prudent, but they are limited down here.



I really think this is a choice that makes sense and will for a long time.  I want to throw Ruger's LCRx model into the mix.  I really struggle with PTSD (I'm being sarcastic) when packing for a backpacking trip and often think I need a combat load.  My pessimistic side always wants to pack a second magazine and with larger double stacks, that really adds a lot of weight when you're trying to keep a week's worth of carrying weight to 30 pounds.  Having a smaller wheel gun allows you a speed strip backup and still weigh less than most double-stack semi-autos with a single magazine.  I said this was "musings", I tend to do this when packing for a trip



This is one revolver I really like.  It's larger than a J-Frame, but is still pretty light.  You shouldn't fire any hot rounds in it, but mine has easily handled all types of standard rounds.  These are just big, slow moving bullets but I do like STHP's and I also had some great accuracy results with Speer Gold Dots.  I found a deal on several boxes of  lead wadcutters and I've used a couple of the snake shot rounds on cottonmouth (the only one I've seen on my property/lake). It's actually a pretty soft-shooting pistol...

ROCK6

Very nice!
For day hiking, g19 and one full standard mag

for my week long backpacking trips, my g19, but I opt for one of the old 10 round ban era magazines to save a few oz.

That's actually not a bad idea and a good way to use those old, reduced capacity magazines...thanks for sharing.

ROCK6

The ten rounder may actually weigh more than the std cap mag. It also has decreased reliability.



I know we all feel the need to carry a full mag, but why not hedge on reliability and just download 5 rounds?
 

I probably shouldn't but I just have to ask. You can't take a poop in the woods without an outhouse?

I use on of these http://www.tacticaltailor.com/lunarconcealedcarrypouch.aspx on the waist belt of my hunting pack. It holds my .40 Kahr and an extra mag just fine. The pouch is a little slow to get into but since I generally don't hike for fun and usually have a rifle of some kind in my hands while hunting it isn't an issue. My worry is people and the very off chance of running into the right animal but after spending 20 years working in the woods unarmed I generally don't worry about much. Heck I have been ran over by a Grizzly and chased around all day by a moose so I now what's out there and its generally the people that need to be worried about.

Not sure why, but this is one of the reasons I don't necessarily consider a double-stack for back-country use right now.  My G23 has been my primary, but the smaller and much lighter Shield in .40S&W has half the capacity and weighs much less.  Downloading a magazine (if it weighs less than the neutered 10-rounders), still adds bulk and weight.  Part of the issue is defining your needs.  For some, it's a non-issue, but when I was considering the smaller, single-stack designs I was comparing them to standard revolver capacities in the 5-7 round range to make it an apple vs. apple comparison.  

Another consideration is having an extra magazine.  If you're high-capacity magazine gets damaged and you're only carrying the one, you're down to a single shot.  With the lower capacity single stacks, you could still pack an extra mag without much weight penalty.  Granted, most of my "musings" are balancing a lightweight, small bulk CCW option with reliability, comfort and access.  There will be compromises, but at the end of the day, it's really personal preferences.  Good discussions though and I appreciate the different opinions...

ROCK6

Everything is going to be within a couple of ounces so I'd say use whatever you have.



For me, part of the appeal of carrying an auto instead of a revolver is the increased capacity to make up for terminal performance. That trade off makes me more effective against two legged predators even when the added terminal performance wouldn't be needed.



From this perspective, a glock 29 would seem to be somewhat ideal. . .



 

I will weigh a 10 round and a 15rnd g19 mag empty next time I get a chance.


Ive always wanted a AL or TI 4" 7-8 shot 327mag revolver as a trail pistol.  Originally I wanted it in 32hr mag but then the 327 came along.

I weighed and weighed and weighed some more.  I settled on the G20, then I kept adding and adding.  Ended up with an extra mag and a TLR1 HL.   If I REALLY felt I had to shave some weight, I could have left the Chiapa Little Badger out of the pack.  

All good info tho thanks.  I'm sure I'll be chsning up my HPG pack a lot.

I really like that kit bag.  I picked up one a couple of years ago, I think on your recommendation.  With a little practice you can draw pretty quickly.  I was a little worried at first that the mesh back panel would rub underneath my pack.   I got an exos 58 last spring and started using that with the kit bag and not had an issue at all.  

I used to carry a P229/40 with a spare mag, but it was a lot like carrying a brick.  I bought a glock in 357sig and e combo is just a little over half the weight of the sig.  I carry a spare mag in one of the packs belt pouches in an attempt to shift some of that weight to my hips from chest/shoulder.


I'm curious about your choice of the 200gr 40 bullet.  Did you select that in case of a bear encounter that went badly?  Most of my carry 40 ammo are 180 or 155 jhps.  I picked the 357sig because it's so flat shooting, but now you've got me rethinking that decision...


I always enjoy your backpacking posts Rock, you've usually got things very well thought through.  

I know the having less weight carried makes the going easier but I think you're splitting hairs at this point. And if you're worried about 4 ounces, lift some more weights to where it isn't a hindrance. I hike the desert a lot with a full size gun. Never once did I feel it was too heavy. YMMV, obviously, but I would go with capacity any day of the week.

Those 200 grain hardcast rounds have proven performance.  I picked them up for a trip where the bears were bigger than black bears we typically encounter.  They are over kill for typical AT hiking.  However I've heard they are quite effective on wild boar which infests much of the farm land in the SE.  It's really just another good option.  I think the .357 Sig plus .40 conversion is a great pair for a variety of outdors uses...

ROCK6

I don't disagree.  I too often recommend hikers consider losing that extra 10 pounds of fat before spending $600 on the newest cuben-fiber tent to shave a few ounces.   For me it was just some collected thoughts and experiments to feed both my gun and backpacking hobbies.  I will say if you're doing distance backpacking, ounces do add up and you notice the difference...at least that's been my experience.  

For those of us who carry a gun backpacking, it's an acceptable weight for mental comfort more than physical comfort....

ROCK6

Quote for truth!  Exactly.  I feel way safer a 3 days hike from a parking lot than I do anywhere in civilization.  But the mantra always rings true "be prepared".

S&W used to make it in an 8 shot .357.   used to...

How horrible is it with mag rounds?   Iirc buffalo bore makes an intermediate 44 round.

The Lehigh bullets look good for hiking type activities.

After holding the Sig p220 in 10mm I believe I may be looking towards this option as well. The Sig was a wee bit heavier than I thought it would be.

I agree. I still think if you can go slightly larger, do it. I simply don't see a downside especially if you've been doing this a while. You're in shape to handle it if you backpack a lot.

What are these "parking lots" you speak of, in Arizona?

I just pull off dirt roads and go. In fact, I need to plan another a hike out for fall but if things go well, I'll be doing that with JeredMD searching for Coues deer anyways

Not necessarily here, but there are a lot of hikes here I do start from trailheads.  I do cross country as well, but not as much.

But places like here, you can see the parking lot in the middle of the picture.  This was day 2 of a 7 day backpacking trip.  Always sucks when you have gone 10-12 miles on trail then off trail and can still see your car LOL.

I spent about 25 years hunting/hiking/camping in the Northern Rockies.  Tried many pistols.  The best compromise I found between reasonable weight and sufficient power and firepower for anything on two or four legs in the mountain wilderness was a Glock 20 in 10mm.  Accurate, compact, relatively lightweight, 100% reliable and plenty of firepower when loaded with 16 full power 180gr XTP's @ 1200fps.   Nothing better in its weight class for all-around self-defense when hiking in bear country.

Years ago I felt my 9mm was a good woods gun.  Then came the day I came face to face with a big bear at 10'.  Surprised the Hell out of me and the bear!  The bear stood up on his hind legs facing me and was taller than I was!  I reached for my 9mm and instantly realized I had been kidding myself and it probably wasn't enough gun!  Retreated and went for my 10mm.  After that face-2-face reality check I never carried the 9mm in the mountains again.  380's?  38's?  9mm's?  Those are even "iffy" on BIG bad guys.  And bears?  Forget about it!  

Those 200gr Double Tap .40S&W are nice (huge meplat), but I noticed you have silvertips in your pictures with the shield.  Can/have you shot the 200gr hardcast in the Shield?



 

I was intrigued by the G29 until I saw how much muzzle velocity you give up.  



Edit:  I just took another look and it's not as bad as I recalled.  I'd still consider an aftermarket barrel, though.





 

I would say it's all relative, but Doubletap lists their 200gr hard-cast as 1240fps out of a Glock 29.  There aren't too many pistols that size with that level of performance.  I don't know how much of a loss it is from a full size Glock 20, but for in-close and personal, it still beats the pants off similar sized pistols. Their .357 loads show good performance out of a 2" barrels, but even their .44 Mag 320ggr hard-cast out a 2.5" (Ruger Alaskan) barrel, lists as 1124fps.  Of course mass and velocity factors equate to terminal performance...but I wouldn't feel under-gunned with 10 or 15 rounds of 10mm in a potent 200gr hard-cast offering.

My biggest concerns would be the size of the handgun and the ability to control rapid follow up shots. Practice would be key, but I would err on the side of effective shot placement over ballistics advantage first.  

ROCK6

I'm a pretty hardcore ultralight distance backpacker. Pretty much always go solo. Pack runs in the 12-14lb range. Typically, the trailheads are THE most dangerous places. Once I get into the wilderness(I live in the Smoky mtns backed up to the AT), I feel much safer. Over the yrs and 7000 miles of backpacking, I've had 3 altercations with the 2 legged type. All 3 were at the trail head. They are too far from most everything for the local LEOs to patrol. The forest service just don't have the resources.

The best thing I've ever done to minimize issues at the THs..is do ALL my last minute preps a few miles before I get there. That's putting on my syn trail cloths, boots and gaiters, last minute cold food (to be typically eaten that first evening. unless its winter, of course) into the pack from the cooler, trekking poles adjusted to the right size, etc. That way, all I do its drive up..park..grab my pack..and I'm into the woods. Gone!...in about 3 minutes tops  Besides just less exposure, I'm also not sitting there like most for 30 minutes, while piddling around with my chit..telegraphing my obvious intentions of hitting the woods and staying at least overnight(which means my car will soon be the best surest bet to possibly break into later on).  

If I carry, its usually an alum framed .380 Colt Mustang Pocket Lite. 12oz unloaded. I use Underwoods very hot +P 102gr Golden Sabres running around 1100fps. Just presenting a gun, will run off most offenders. Their pretty much cowards. Their not going to stick around to see if its a 9mm or something less powerful. Even then, an 102gr HP running at 9mm speed is plenty if I do my part..make the hits.

This is good advice and what my wife and I attempt when we hit the trail.  I've actually found I prefer the reverse of driving to where we plan to hike to and catching a shuttle or bumming (from a friend or family member) a ride back to our start point trailhead.  Still, it's smart to limit your time on target when conducting infil/exfll backpacking-operations  My wife used to get upset when I rushed to hit the trailhead, but when we were overly interrupted by a few bums posing as hikers, she was pretty uncomfortable and couldn't wait to hit the trailhead.  

ROCK6

So my G34 with 4 extra mags is a bit much for hiking?