What Does Everyone Think Of The Straight Arm Shooting

Does everyone know the way some people shoot a carbine, with their supporting arm out stretched in front of them? I know its suppose to help with recoil and transitioning between targets, but I just don't like it at all. I like getting my thumb on top of the hand guard but still keep my other fingers in the notch between the vert-grip and hand guards.

I would like to try out that new magpul grip but I'm worried its built only for the strait arm style shooting.

What does the jury think?

fad

Thats what I thought, didnt know if there was really something to it or not. Above all else I thought it looks ridiculous.

See for yourself. All it takes is a timer, some targets, and a little time.

The question isn't, "Is it better?", the question is, "Is it better for me?"

Pretty is as pretty does. If it is quicker on transitions, and gives less sight picture bounce, who cares how stupid it looks?

This.

I am still following the previous fad of the vertical grip.

Simple mechanics are such that the further out your support hand is, the more control you can exercise.

Beyond that the specifics of the grip are an individual choice, defined many times by the type of gear attached to the rifle and the need to position the hand to use it.

As to where it came from - I remember hearing that the thumb on top got started because a lot of guys had IR Lasers in back of the front sight post and they had to grip that way to reach the button.

FWIW,

––Fargo007

I just dont find that method comfortable, maybe having a forward grip, but having your arm all straight, it just dont like it.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Try them all and see which one works best for you.

It took me several years to really get used to it. I was a "VFG close to the magwell" guy years ago, and now I'm a "no VFG and grab the weapon waaay out there" guy. I shoot better this way, so I'm having a little trouble reconciling that with the people who say it's a fad. I'm wondering if they've ever tried it for more than a few shots.

I was the same exact way, and I think you're right about some not giving it an honest try.

Far from a fad......... not only has it been proven faster and better transition times in both competition and FOF

While not for everyone it does have merit and it works well

Its not a Magpul thing, they have brought to more folks attn it has been used for years

Check this topic as well:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=9&f=1&t=229512

It may be a fad . . . if fads go for years and get people shooting adequately accurate shot significantly faster. It's not new and the results speak for themselves. If you don't want to try it, it's your choice. If you do try it, you may learn it works well for you.

A fad followed by Kyle Lamb, Jerry Miculek, Mike Voigt, LAV, Kurt Miller, Eric Miller, Robby Johnson, Bruce Piatt, Todd Salmon, Taran Butler, Chris Costa, Brian Searcy, etc. But what do they know?

The extended grip is best for rapid transitions between targets and recoil control. It is more dynamic but less stable. You will not see any highpower or silhouette matches won with the extended grip.

The AFG doesn't force you to use a straight support side arm. I keep the off-arm slightly bent and I love the AFG.

Everyone's ergonomics are different and just depends what works for you. I have an AFG on my gun, but still find myself holding the magwell.

Why?

Forearm mid way––> VFG mid way––> back forearm but at the end

Tried the thumb wrap around, couldn't get into it. Felt too off, I'll try it out again but feels too uncomfortable. Gonna give the VFG a try out at the end Magpul style.

Definitely not a fad. Anyone that says it is not a legitimate way to shoot is a fool with little to no training.

However, It is a way to shoot, not the way to shoot. There is no right or right way to handle a carbine, only more efficient ways. If you don't like it, don't use it. But at least understand WHY the method is used.

I tried the AVG and did not like it, but for 30.00$ its worth trying. I like to run a VFG with the thumb forward grip placed about half way on a carbine length hand guard.

I guess shooting trap and skeet with an extended grip on my shotgun was a fad 30 years ago? The only thing stopping me from using a similar extended grip on a carbine length rifle was, well the length of handguards. Since the evolution of various handguards this has allowed for an extended reach on the carbine. As mentioned this, as well as many other things have been done long before Magpul designed items around these needs. It wasn't Magpul inventing this stuff, just them marketing parts to those who were already doing it. Hell I have been running a Battery Assist type of lever and a 1 point to 2 point convertible sling years before Magpul's stuff hit the market.

For the AFG, as a stubby VFG user, I wanted to hate it. It looked ugly and the Magpul nutswingers wanted them without even understanding the mechanics of this type of grip and shooting style. I finally gave in and I must say, my stubbies are all in a box right now.

AFG on a 10.3" MK18. My grip isn't as extended for obvious reasons but the AFG works well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOibQKB0CNk

Here is the MK18 back to back with a 16" Noveske with a more extended grip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbOct0zf6_M

Extended grip rifle running the 1-5 Drill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEYXdQebzA8

Can you run a rifle great without any type of fore grip? You bet. Does the grip help? Depends on the shooter preference. For myself, I like it. The AFG is actually more comfortable than a VFG while providing the control that I like. I never used a broom handle grip on a VFG.

I know a Vietnam vet, former Marine, who hadn't shot an AR pattern rifle in years. He picked mine up and immediately held it in the "Magpul", thumb over bore style.

So I guess if the fad started in Vietnam...

I didnt realized we were talking about the AK47 in this thread?

I started using the VFG when rail systems were introduced to the Conventional Army 10 years ago. It was a great add on. I since then have tried the AFG from Magpul and I realized the better control and the better transition on multiple targets. All my VFG's are in my TA50 closet on the shelf. I am currently using one here in Afghanistan and I get the WTF looks all the time. Especially on my M16. Yeah I know I am a Combat Arms guy in an Aviation World MOS 13F. At the range other Soldiers were impressed that I can transition quickly on multiple targets and how stable I was on the reflexive fire range. People in my unit stopped giving me that WTF look and started asking questions. So it's no fad, it works. In the end it's up to the shooter to decide whats more comfortable to them.

I've been saying for years that we haven't fully heard from our Vietnam Vets on stuff like this. Maybe if people didn't treat those guys like shit, they might have more to say to those of us who really want to learn. It's a shame that there's so much that's never going to get said.

Let's you and me don't let that happen again.

––Fargo007

aint that the truth! +1 With all the veterans in the fight right now, there should be a lot to teach the younger generation of warriors willing to do violence on others behalfs. I learned a couple of tricks from some Vietnam vets that were in Hawaii. One of them told me that double mag tape shit dont work right. The weapon was designed to hold one magazine not two taped together. I also learned to use masking tape on my grenades instead of duct tape, or electric tape. If I were to tape them, they said tape hinders employing grenades, he said keepem in the grenade pouch as it. For christs sakes it has two safeties he said. You know what? My first two combat tours Thats the advice I used. I didnt do the whole tape the magazine our magazine coupler crap, or tape my grenades.

I know two Vietnam combat vets that hold the support hand all the way at the end of the handguards. One is a Marine and the other was Army. Neither one liked carbine handguards for that reason...

What's old is new again.... this shooting style is really nothing new, just completely fallen into obscurity because the current issue & "tacticool" weapon designs weren't suited to it.

Guys shot this way in VN. Like so many other hard-won lessons of combat, those that offend the sensibilities of some General officer or bureaucrat somewhere are conveniently scrubbed from the institutional memory.

SAS developed a shooting technique in the 70's using that stance with a stockless MP5 and a single point sling. If you ever wondered where the HK end caps with a sling swivel came from, there it is, along with the angled shaped bigger foregrip for MP5s (compare to the AFG).

You can sorta mimic the SAS technique with an AR carbine or AR pistol by using an appropriate sling and fully collapsed, removed or missing stock.

I've been a proponent of the "recce" configuration (and opposed large diameter handguard designs) for a long, long time and this is really the reason why.

Exactly. Personally, I don't use teh extended grip, as experiences in my life have shown me that I should keep on the subgun (magwell/vfg) hold. Granted, I know from training the teh forward hold is faster swinging around (no noticeable muzzle rise for me), but I trade the muzzle movement for a more sustainable hold.

Can't speak about a "fad", but I'm sure a lot of folks have inadvertantly tried the grip while going through a multitude of positions while they were learning to shoot. Hell, it was something I tried back in 99, before big internet and training schools, just because I was experimenting with different holds.

On a side note, I was also kinda bred on the MP5SD as a CQB weapon and initially learned via the standard H&K fighting stance and grip. We use that grip on the MP5 because the weapon pretty much necessitates it. However I find that on a rifle that gives us the ability to extend our grip and if we use a good extended grip, VFG or "C" clamp or a combination of the two, it is much easier to control the weapon even in regards to burst, full auto fire even when speaking about muzzle rise. So if I am correct on what you are defining as a "sustainable hold", IMO on a well trained shooter on a good extended grip, they are much better off if they can get a bit farther out.

As times change and training and equipment have allowed, I have invariably converted numerous old school types who were also bred on the MP5 and were even M4 magwell hold types, into extended grip shooters. Many old school guys are too darn stubborn to change, but those who do have all become better shooters with the AR/M4 platform by using a more extended grip.

What I mean by sustainable is time. Hold a straight arm hold on target, aim at a head size target about 15-20 yards away. How long can you hold it on target. Now try it with magwell grip. If your sights come off target, end teh experiment for that phase. For me, I can hold magwell grip on target a hell of a lot longer than I can straightarm.

"But why would you hold on head sized target for as long as you can?" might you ask. As I mentioned previously, life's experiences and events shape our individual ways of doing things. I know I can hold the magwell grip for at least 12 minutes.

I kinda assumed we were talking about our most ideal grip while the gun was running. Of course we take up many different improvised or alternate positions when shooting, covering, digging our nose etc.

I am not a HSLD firearm training operator, nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But I know that with my support hand located near the middle of the handguard, whether on plastic, carbon fiber, a rail, or a VFG, I can hold at the low ready, move, acquire, shoot, assess, move, transition, hell, even run full speed, without changing the placement of my hands. That stability, that simplicity, works for me. If something else works for you, then fine. I would hope that your decision is based on training time, though...


damian@adcofirearms.com

It's a great technique for shooting paper at close range. Not for me.

I personally think it's a fad. If not a fad, it's popular right now. A lot of people are adopting shooting match style techniques and products at the moment.

So if its good at shooting paper at close to intermediate distances

why wouldn't it be good at doing the same on human threats

Obvious there are reason why the MIl seek out a lot of top competition shooters to teach them to shoot faster better and more accurate ?

I watched my Drill Sergeant, SSG Rivera 11B3X, in Basic Training(May96) light up(LASAR RANGE the one that has the monitor to show where your rounds are hitting) 300 meter targets standing, unsupported, sling wrapped around his forearm, hand extremely close to the Delta Ring, elbows down and tucked, using an iron sighted, non free floated, 10,000+ rounds Basic Training M16A2, that my Battle Buddy couldn't hit the 50 meter target with. Throw it back to him and in an extremely thisk hispanic accent say, 'There's nothing wrong with the FUCKING RIFLE SHOOT THE FUCKING TARGET!'

So your going to to have time to go into the camp perry stance sling supported body braced position is what your saying



there are different TTPs for different things jeesh you cant compare apples and oranges

There truly is "nothing new under the sun". But being a dinosaur, what do I know?

What I find curious is that one of the criticisms of the traditional stance is the strong side elbow proclivity to receiving incoming fire but somehow the extended support side elbow of the extended hold does not seem to be an issue.

curious what system is this ? SCATT or Noptel? The Beamhit shows trace?

Passing fad nobody would use if not for YouTube videos of a few high-profile celebrity trainers using it.

I believe the system was acronymed LASAR, LASR, or LASER but that was 14 years ago and it was only 1 range day. The range is a standard range with targets that remain up but at the firing position there is a monitor so you can see where your rounds are actually impacting.

This incident my battle buddy was firing at the 50meter target, known as Fast Freddie Right, and there weren't any strikes on the monitor. So as the observer I called Drill Sergeant over thinking there was a problem with the system. My battle buddy said there was a problem with the rifle becasue 'he couldn't hit shit'. DS Rivera inserted a fresh magazine shouldered the weapon with his hand just fore of the delta ring and proseeded to double tap center mass then 1 to the head on the 50meter target standing then wrapped the sling around his forearm and engaged the 300meter target with the remaining 27 rounds all hits to center mass

Just like other fads from the competitive world: the modern isosceles stance (and the Weaver stance for that matter), the flash sight picture, the red dot sight, the speed reload, reverse kneeling, freefloated handguards, etc, etc.

Don't knock stuff just because it is used in the civilian competitive world. It MAY be better (then again it may not).

My thought on it.

Like others have said, it's not a new technique... I knew a guy who was touting the support arm all the way out method long before anyone heard of Magpul. And I's Sure the MagPul guys would not lay claim to it either.

I've tried it and I can say that it does not work for me. I still like a short VFG to run my support hand and to run a white light. I find my way still works well for me. Not all my techniques are governed by a shot clock. Can someone shave ...0002 seconds off a drill? I'm sure they can... yet it's more then that to fight and win.

I've trained enough over the years to know that shooting the gun is a small part of fighting with one. Manipulations and Mindset weigh more to me then simply putting a bullet in the bull. Running and gunning out in an open square range to a rockin sound track looks cool and all.. but there's just a tad bit more to it then that in my book.


but at the end of the day, you run what you feel works for you. It doesn't work for me.

The first time I've seen this forward support hold was at Ft. Benning during our mobilization training in 2008. The civilian instructors just demonstrated it but did not explain it or identify it. I just thought it was weird at first when they demonstrated shooting to us. I tried it and have since moved my VFG a bit forward. My arms aren't that long and I can't hold it for very long without my arms drooping. It's good for situations that are dynamic and for situations that necessitate a more stable and static position this isn't it. I was always taught to support the rifle with bone support and less muscle use. While obviously the straight forward arm grip is using muscle it is faster on target. if you can hold this way for long periods without deterioration - that's awesome. The "trend" everyone refers to is a battlefield where engagements are closer than what they were in earlier wars. This stance addresses that change.

I don't know how to break this to you, but there are certain factors that come into play when you're shooting at people who are trying to kill you.

I'm not going to get into it because I could write 4 pages on CQB Tactics and not even scratch the surface.

I don't know any people in the Military that seek out competition shooters. I know that a lot of Units take shooting courses from Civilians because they offer shooting packages that sometimes aren't available at Military Facilities.

AMU? Do you find them to be a waste of time and money?

AMU a waste of money? Explain plz

It was a question for KillAgain it seems to me he sees no merit in competition shooting skills. I want to know his opinion on the Army Marksmanship Unit.

I have no opinion. I've never worked with them.

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