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AR308s in Service Rifle Competition since 2009? Anyone here shot them in competition?
1/5/2011 4:31:04 PM
Ive only been to the small arms firing school and have not yet shot in competition but just saw this on the Kreiger website and was not aware of the possibility of shooting 308 in Service Rifle Competition.
"As of 2009, the U.S. Rifle, Cal 7.62mm M-110 and it's civilian clones (Armalite AR-10, DPMS-LR-308 etc.) are legal to use in NRA Service Rifle competition. We are now offering Service Rifle legal barrels for the DPMS and Armalite style rifles. Please refer to the 2009 NRA High Power rule book, rule # 3.1.6 Service Rifle - U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm M-110 Series for the rule details on this rifle and it's legal configurations. Barrel specifications of what we are making are below. As with our AR-15 DCM/Service Rifle barrels, we do not include a gas block or front sight with this barrel."
Apparently requires a 20" Barrel but If I can use my LMT MWS and drop in a 20" I would be interested.
"As of 2009, the U.S. Rifle, Cal 7.62mm M-110 and it's civilian clones (Armalite AR-10, DPMS-LR-308 etc.) are legal to use in NRA Service Rifle competition. We are now offering Service Rifle legal barrels for the DPMS and Armalite style rifles. Please refer to the 2009 NRA High Power rule book, rule # 3.1.6 Service Rifle - U.S. Rifle, Caliber 7.62mm M-110 Series for the rule details on this rifle and it's legal configurations. Barrel specifications of what we are making are below. As with our AR-15 DCM/Service Rifle barrels, we do not include a gas block or front sight with this barrel."
Apparently requires a 20" Barrel but If I can use my LMT MWS and drop in a 20" I would be interested.
1/6/2011 7:19:38 AM
My first question would be "why". The intent of the AR-10 as a service rifle was for long-range competition.
In my opinion there is no advantage to the AR-10 for across the course service rifle shooting. Actually, the added recoil and larger frame of the rifle can be seen as disadvantages. People have tried the AR-10 and found that they come back to the AR-15 platform. If you want to shoot one that's fine but you may wind up shooting a more expensive rifle with nothing to gain.
Also, you can use the AR-10 to compete for service rifle awards in NRA Highpower competition but not in CMP matches. This may make a difference to those that want to pursue particular CMP awards.
In my opinion there is no advantage to the AR-10 for across the course service rifle shooting. Actually, the added recoil and larger frame of the rifle can be seen as disadvantages. People have tried the AR-10 and found that they come back to the AR-15 platform. If you want to shoot one that's fine but you may wind up shooting a more expensive rifle with nothing to gain.
Also, you can use the AR-10 to compete for service rifle awards in NRA Highpower competition but not in CMP matches. This may make a difference to those that want to pursue particular CMP awards.
1/6/2011 12:10:58 PM
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
1/6/2011 4:43:56 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Sir, having competed in service rifle competitions with both the M1A and AR-15 I will say that the AR-15 is an easier platform to shoot well. The M1A shooter has to have a much better and consistant position to shoot the rifle well simply due to the recoil. I started using a DPMS LR-308 in match rifle competition and had to learn how to refine my position all over again. While recoil is an issue that effects the quality of the shooters scores the recoil is also different in that due to the heavy weight of the bolt and carreir assembly recoil is also in the forward direction as the bolt closes. I now also have an AR-10 configured for the .260 Rem. cartridge and am spending a fair amount of time working with the rifle and developing loads. The platform you describe could have some advantages over the AR-15 due to the heavier bullets but frankly I've never felt the limitations of the .223 cartridge were a significant handicap that could not be overcome with adequate practice. In my opinion if you want to shoot sevice rifle competiion at the highest levels, work with the AR-15 and learn to shoot it well. It will serve you well out beyond 300yds and greater but the long range bullets such as 80gr VLDs are not suitable for feeding from the magazine. JMHO, 7zero1
1/6/2011 5:10:31 PM
Thanks for the input.
1/6/2011 5:33:31 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
308s on the AR platform are not standard issue in the military.
1/6/2011 6:35:20 PM
From what I hear the .30 cal ARs are mainly being used for the 1000 yard line.
If you can use the MWS with a 20 inch barrel, you may also need a fixed stock.
If you can use the MWS with a 20 inch barrel, you may also need a fixed stock.
1/6/2011 7:17:27 PM
Originally Posted By Renn:
308s on the AR platform are not standard issue in the military.
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
308s on the AR platform are not standard issue in the military.
Standard issue? No, but they are issued in significant numbers as the M110.
1/6/2011 8:44:10 PM
Originally Posted By 1MAC:
Standard issue? No, but they are issued in significant numbers as the M110.
Originally Posted By Renn:
308s on the AR platform are not standard issue in the military.
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
308s on the AR platform are not standard issue in the military.
Standard issue? No, but they are issued in significant numbers as the M110.
1/7/2011 7:32:37 AM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Too bad its not allowed in CMP matches. I will qualify the following by saying that while I have been shooting on and off since I was a kid I am a novice with regard to these competitions and never served in the military. However, my impressions are that it took a long time to pull guys away from their full power 308 M1As. 308 is more lethal in general and particularly at distance. Part of the point of these competitions is to keep the skill level and lethality of Americans up. 308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
M1As gave way to AR15s given that ARs are inherently and more cheaply accurate and the accuracy combined with availability of heavier bullets overcame the wind bucking advantage of the 308s. Given the relatively explosive growth in the availability of AR 308s (with the same cost / accuracy advantages of the AR15 relative to the M1A) they would begin to start winning in higher numbers (if they were allowed in the CMP matches). People would start showing up with their 20" Kreigers and 175 grain accuracy loads and start winning matches.
Would be easier for scorers to find holes also.
Modern service rifle competition has very little to do with battlefield lethality. Despite what many people believe, it's a sport. Not the ultimate military training exercise. Shooters that really want to compete choose rifles based on very practical reasons such as recoil, maintenance costs, ergonomics, etc. Essentially, whatever will allow them to shoot the highest score as many times as possible for the lowest cost. The AR-15 is the best service rifle to do this.
Many of us kept shooting our M1As when the heaviest .223 bullet was 69gr. But after the 80gr. bullets became available there wasn't much practical reason to stick with .30 cal. While both rifles are capable of shooting 495s but it's easier to do with the AR-15 and you can do it more often without rebedding and without constantly cleaning the gas system.
Regardless of the rifle you choose just come out and start shooting some matches. If you wan to use an AR-10 go ahead. Don't worry about it's status with the CMP. Those types of matches are pretty rare and NRA matches are much more common. Shoot matches, talk to others, and have fun. Don't sweat the rifle.
1/7/2011 3:26:48 PM
Originally Posted By Collector497:
Modern service rifle competition has very little to do with battlefield lethality. Despite what many people believe, it's a sport. Not the ultimate military training exercise..
Modern service rifle competition has very little to do with battlefield lethality. Despite what many people believe, it's a sport. Not the ultimate military training exercise..
This is very true ^
1/14/2011 4:15:32 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
From the looks of most CMP match firing lines, there are few young men of military age shooting anything.
1/14/2011 5:29:55 PM
Originally Posted By JWnTN:
From the looks of most CMP match firing lines, there are few young men of military age shooting anything.
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
From the looks of most CMP match firing lines, there are few young men of military age shooting anything.
They are in carbine training courses...run & gun type matches etc. Who would want to sit out in the elements in a shooting coat, slinged up tight shooting at anything past 100 yards? That's what I hear in addition to typical shooting scenarios take place at less than 100 yards. HP shooting is a relic etc. "idolatrous"
1/31/2011 2:47:35 PM
Originally Posted By Renn:
They are in carbine training courses...run & gun type matches etc. Who would want to sit out in the elements in a shooting coat, slinged up tight shooting at anything past 100 yards? That's what I hear in addition to typical shooting scenarios take place at less than 100 yards. HP shooting is a relic etc. "idolatrous"
Originally Posted By JWnTN:
From the looks of most CMP match firing lines, there are few young men of military age shooting anything.
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
308s continue to reemerge in civilian shooting and in the military context and think it would be useful for young men who might end up deploying with 308s to learn early on to negotiate the weight and recoil.
From the looks of most CMP match firing lines, there are few young men of military age shooting anything.
They are in carbine training courses...run & gun type matches etc. Who would want to sit out in the elements in a shooting coat, slinged up tight shooting at anything past 100 yards? That's what I hear in addition to typical shooting scenarios take place at less than 100 yards. HP shooting is a relic etc. "idolatrous"
Perhaps its time to broaden the appeal... let guys compete on the line with M4 clones and aimpoints (or any AR variant with 20" barrel or under)... add a faster paced timed 20 round string of fire at 100. I think it is important to look at what it was meant to be... are any combat units shooting with irons? If they are its with MaTech rear sights that are marked to 600. I could be wrong but seems to me the program is allowing itself to be hobbled by remaining frozen in time as well as by doing things like embracing air gun.
1/31/2011 3:29:40 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Perhaps its time to broaden the appeal...
Perhaps its time to broaden the appeal...
While lessening it for those actually competing in it.
1/31/2011 3:45:34 PM
Originally Posted By jcs1:
While lessening it for those actually competing in it.
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
Perhaps its time to broaden the appeal...
Perhaps its time to broaden the appeal...
While lessening it for those actually competing in it.
I'm not sure that would necessarily be the result and don't imagine it would have an impact on those currently tending to win today. I'm guessing it would improve revenue generation, sport participation, and perhaps introduce some new concepts / practices over time.
1/31/2011 3:55:16 PM
Originally Posted By jasonusvi:
I'm not sure that would necessarily be the result and don't imagine it would have an impact on those currently tending to win today. I'm guessing it would improve revenue generation, sport participation, and perhaps introduce some new concepts / practices over time.
I'm not sure that would necessarily be the result and don't imagine it would have an impact on those currently tending to win today. I'm guessing it would improve revenue generation, sport participation, and perhaps introduce some new concepts / practices over time.
You can already use your M4gery with the red dot in NRA Highpower as a Match Rifle Any Sight. Few choose to. There's a new Service Rifle Optical class this year. I expect few to try that too. At local matches, no one is turned away if they don't have proper gear (not that I've seen, at least).
My experience tells me it wouldn't improve any of those things (you do fail to explain the "how").
