USPSA Tactical Iron Rule (red dots allowed)

Finally rifles with only Red Dots stand a chance in 3gun. I see there is a rule allowing them in Tactical Irons division now. I think its great, between Tactical Optic and Open rifles there really is no difference anymore.

Last years Area 6 multi-gun

Not true.

Unmagnified red dots are allowed in tac-irons, but a magnified optic and a red-dot will put you in open. Only one optic on your rifle if you want to shoot tac-optics.

The big difference in open is with the shotgun in my opinion. Maybe the pistol. I don't have much experience with open guns so this is just my stab at where the real difference is.

Yes Shotgun and pistol open becomes the advantage. A open rifle and a tac rifle not much difference with today's comps all built around the 1x3 rule. Open any size comp, a bipod, and more than one optic.
Personally not a big fan of rds and irons in the same group, but I don't really shoot std rifle anymore so I don't care. Everyone shoots tactile or at least it appears that way.

Not correct, the new rule will allow red dot ONLY in with tac-irons, a red dot and magnifier and you can run in tac-optic. The magnifier is considered the one optic.

Not sure if it has been updated yet on the USPSA page or the FB3G rules.

Edit: it has now been added to the 2010 FB3G rules.
Edit again: could not find it on USPSA page but Dave Thomas said it is a done deal.

So will the shotgun and pistol rules that apply to tac-optics apply to tac-irons as well?

Please point out exactly what I said that was not correct. I did not say a magnifier and a red dot. I said a magnified optic and a red dot.

Does this apply to shotguns as well?
Can you put an unmagnified red dot on the shotty?

I don't really get the point of the rule change.

No, rifle only.

the point of the rule change is to try and get more shooters into std rifle and to ease the bitching from people when they show up with a RDS and have to shoot against a guy with a 1-4x scope. the rds just cant compete at distance compared to a magainfied optic for most "common" shooters.

Ive seen Bruce Piatt clean house with a std rifle against open shooters.

Well then, I stand corrected.

I don't care either way. I do get tired of the whinning. I shoot only irons and will continue. Area 6 and Fort Benning will tell me where I stand in the game. If I get smoked by rds guys then I need to upgrade or practice more.

Ryan

I think the edge that good iron sights have over a RDS at long range outweighs the small advantage a RDS might have up close.

If it is close enough to hose I usually just have the front sight post between the ears of the rear sight anyway.

No biggie. I wasn't 100% sure you weren't pointing out something I had wrong and I just didn't know it.

.It was late, I had 3 beers, and I interpreted it as a red dot and magnifier would put you in open.

Since I started this thread let me add or clarify my point of view. I will be the first to say a Red Dot class needs to be added to 3gun but I don't think it should be lumped into Iron Sight class. Iron Sight should stay iron sighs. Adding Red Dots could just alienate iron sight shooters from the sport. I think USPSA is half hearting the rule in I think we need a whole new division.

For my argument Lets look at USPSA pistol, currently USPSA pistol shooting has 6 Divisions three of those Divisions cater to the M1911 style single action pistol (limited 10,Limited and Single stack). Three Divisions were needed just because of the disparity between the guns used to make a even playing field. I myself started out shooting 10years ago in Limited 10 with my trusty Kimber Single stack with 10rd mags. When limited 10 first came out you could do very well in USPSA. As time went on in Limited 10 more and more shooters just started down loading their Limited tuned double stacked 40 caliber STI's and like limited guns and using them in Limited 10. On average those guns way out perform a classic M1911 single stack so to even the field out came Single Stack Division to give those shooters who like their classic M1911's a chance again.

I think 3gun is at the same point now, we have for the most part: Open, Tactical Optic, Iron Sight, Heavy Metal and Trooper. 5 Divisions (One less Division than all pistol shooting) Just like USPSA pistol had to grow to meet what shooters want and have to use, I think 3gun has now become so popular it has to grow also.
The average shooter does not own a compensated AR with a $1000 plus scope I think the norm is more of what you will find in places like the endless Magpul and other shooting course AAR photos, shooters running around with more “Tactical” set- up AR’s . Most photos you will see at least 75% of the students sporting just red dots and no scopes.

Now I can hear guys saying “well those are just their tactical set ups I have both a tactical gun and a 3gun rifle” that’s exactly my point 3gun has become a shooting sport where you must have a certain set-up to do well. Just like with the creation of IDPA some shooters got tired of the USPSA equipment race and started a sport where more normal guns could play.
Now as for myself I don’t plan on jumping right into Tactical Irons with my red dot just yet, personally I enjoy shooting against the largest possible field just to see where I stack up. Example if I hit a match and there are 50 shooters in Tac-Ops and 5 in tac-Irons Im not going into Tac-Irons just because I have a better chance of “winning the Divison” with less shooters. I myself started shooting 3gun with a powered scope I switched to a red dot as a matter of choice (I enjoy the challenge of it and it is what I use at work). So for me unless I see maybe a specific red-dot only division at a local match Tac-Optics is still where I will be for the foreseeable future.

Most guys who shoot limited will not shy away just cause red dots are now in their class.....red dots have little advantage if any over iron sights in 3 gun due to the long range aspect of the game and the "race iron" setups which can be created. The Last thing we need is another class for red dots only......either shoot your red dot in tactical or shoot it in limited...the field is so spread out as it is, this is simply an attempt to get more shooters to show up for limited division and creating a RDS class will make it even worse!

Keep in mind, most Outlaw Matches still won't let you shoot in limited/irons with a red dot...this new rule is only for USPSA specific matches.

Furthermore, the sport (under USPSA) is not designed or intended to cater to guys who want to take their tactical AR and shoot them to win.....the common understanding is that there are 2 types of shooters....Type A (guys who shoot to win and set up their weapons to optimize them for this) and Type B (those who use the events as training tools)...

I'm type C, I show up have fun and go home.
a 200 dollar Leupold and 20 dollar rings is all you need around here, out west maybe it is different. Much less than your std aimpoint and mount set up.

Its a new rule, more and more places will being to adopt their own versions of it just like this years Ozarks match did.

This is my thought process as well...

Thats exactly my point USPSA Pistol has evolved with Production and other divisions so you can you compete with your carry /tactical gun, you are saying one more division in 3gun would be too much? Where/when will the equipment race end? Yes your 1X4 scope might rock now but what in 5 years or less when 1X8 or 1X10's or 12's take over we all have to buy new gear to keep up?

I'd be fine with a 1x Tactical Optics class, matches up people with similar equipment.

If we cater to everyone's wants and desires it turns it will turn into a 1 shooter per class category system, not just 1 more division...I understand classes evolve, but this has nothing to do with the evolution of the tactical optics class.....like I said, this is a USPSA rule....to try and encourage greater turnout in the LIMITED DIVISION. That is all it is.

The goal of ISPC was to find the best gear for the job, years ago it was run what you brung.
Tac (47) is the most common, then open (17) the std (7), and usally one or 2 heavy metal guys.

I started with the aimpoint then added the 3x, then i relized I have more money on top of the rifle than below, I could of saved over 900 if i just went with that set up from the start.

For 250 you can get a 1-4x Leupold shotgun scope and a set of high millet rings and have no disadvantage at all. You just won't look tac cool.

You will see this more and more. We did it at the Ozarks match. FB3G has adopted it and a little birdy told me BRM3G will as well. The guys who are good at Irons arent complaining about this, so Im not sure what the problem is. It will bring new people in the sport....thats the bottom line.

I talked to Kurt Miller about it. He was one of the main supporters, he said it was pretty much a wash on who would win and it went across all skill levels. If your a good shooter with irons you will be a good shooter with a dot. The top iron sight shooters with the 24" sight's and rear sight doped to 600 yds will stay in irons.
I think it will work out.

If it does bring more people to the sport then I sure hope there are more matches that come with it. Matches fill up as it was before regardless of what class people were planning on shooting. Having every match registration be like Tri-Gun would suck.

The good thing is there are new matches coming along every year. I would love to see about 20 "Big" matches. More opprotunity to go and possibly be closer to your hometown.

Maybe there should be two Ozark matches for 2011 and start a new trend?!? I like it down there in MO so the more matches down round there works for me.

I regularly shoot Tac Irons if not shooting HM or HMO. I wasn't thrilled about the addition of RDS to
the TI class but it seems to be what many are going too. So I will give it a try for the first time this weekend at the
Old Fort 3 Gun in Ft Smith, AR..

I put a Fastfire on my usual TI gun and sighted it in. Then I proceeded to shoot from 25-300 yards.
I was faster with the RDS at all ranges so I guess I will leave it on as many matches as I can. For my
older eyes, it seemed to have helped.

Craig

One is enough.....It ages me 10 years every time we do it.

I'm running a red dot because around here the matches all seem to be short range (50-75 yards max). Having shot just irons before I was amazed how much faster I was with the red dot. I'm still a newbie at this, so I know a good shooter would smoke me with irons. In addition to the RDS I have a YHM flip up front sight/gas block and a Matech rear sight. My thinking is that if I shoot a stage with longer shots the irons will be better since I can just set the Matech to the appropriate range setting. We'll see how that works out in the real world if I ever shoot a longer range match

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